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Aeropow - setting the level? (Read 16368 times)

Fultonius

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Aeropow - setting the level?
April 01, 2016, 05:39:37 pm
This winter I've dabbled in training...but been too busy at uni to actually get enough sessions down the wall. (like 1 per week for quite a few weeks)  :'(

Anyway - I had a vague notion to mainly do AnCap, AeroCap and Bouldering for most of the winter.

Last weekend I had my first outdoors sport session of the year. Unsurprisingly I felt really strong on 15-20 move sections....then powered out.

So, I'm now shifting focus to the powers of AnPow and AeroPow. Today I did a session of 30 move circuits, with rests of 1x to 1.5x climbing time. What I'm not sure about is setting the correct level.

How pumped should you feel at the end of rep 1, 2, 3, 4 etc?  Should the circuits all be the same level or is good to alternate between some varied difficulties?

Current (indoor) onsight level is Fr7a+/b and the route I was working outside (which I've done before) was Fr7b+ and it should go next session, so I'm probably currently around the Fr7c+/8a Long term project grade (diffuclty wise, endurance is lacking but that's what I'm wanting to work on now for late spring).

I only had Fiend to ask at the wall and he was worse than useless  :-*  [to be fair I didn't ask him]

nai

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#1 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 09:05:01 am
As nobody else is playing I'll give it a go.

You're maybe best mixing up circuits at around your OS level with some more bouldery exercises.

When performing circuits you want to be doing the first few reps ok, the middle laps you'll start blowing a bit and be fighting to the finish in the last few.  Make sure you're getting pumped rather than powering out, if the latter's happening you may have set the circuit too hard.

Don't forget the POW element, if you're aim is to be redpointing harder stuff you need to be pulling off harder moves than you'll get on your circuit so devise some kind of boulder circuits like 4x4s.

And don't forget foot-on campusing for a simple, quick way of getting your forearms all out smashed to bits.

Fultonius

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#2 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 11:28:30 am
Cheers.

Do folks mix circuits and boulder 4x4s in one session?

Ok, it sounds like my easier circuit was too easy.

Is it better to err on the harder side with slightly longer rest (towards 2x climbing time) and bring the rests down as it all gets easier?

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#3 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 11:48:06 am
I have a big problem understanding training Aero Power. Really being able to pull off something as nails as an AeroPower circuit you must be peaking . When Binney was talking it sounded like a term that was plugging a gap in his model.

nai

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#4 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 12:07:41 pm
Ideally they'd be separate sessions, if you're going to combine them I guess do the harder 4x4 first, have a decent rest then the circuits.  Or do them in different sessions combined with strength or AeroCap work?

Re rest times and difficulty it perhaps depends on your end goals. If you're wanting to do lots of quick redpoints probably go for an easier circuit with shorter rests but for longer sieges of harder routes maybe doing harder climbing with longer rests might be of more help.

With emphasis on guess, perhaps, probably, maybe and might.

petejh

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#5 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 12:09:25 pm
I have problem understanding the usefulness of the whole model, outside of the very specific case of a couple of personalities who use it as the model for their bench-marking database of climbers at different grade levels. 
(and wonder if much of the reason for the take-up of it as a training model by the British/Sheff crowd is personality led).

I don't see anything in an/aero/cap/pow that's any more useful than a training model of endurance (low intensity to high), power-endurance (short duration to long), power and strength. The later is easier to understand ime. The number of posts on here along the lines of 'am I training aeroxyz or anxyz' says something about its real-world utility.

Open to being convinced though.

What I'm interested in is how do different theoretical models in climbing training compare to each other - i.e. Patxi's training method, different lead and boulder teams in Europe (Germans and French especially), Anderson brothers, etc..  What are the similarities and what are the differences, if any.

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#6 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 12:27:48 pm
What I'm interested in is how do different theoretical models in climbing training compare to each other - i.e. Patxi's training method, different lead and boulder teams in Europe (Germans and French especially), Anderson brothers, etc.. 

Well, I'm not privy to any insider information, but I see the Bavarian part of the German youth team training regularly at my local walls, plus  one of the seniors who is top 20 in the world and a regular semifinalist in WC bouldering.

And what I see them doing is ...

  • Pretty much bog standard hanging out with their mates trying hard boulders like everybody else. The juniors mostly on a 45 degree board making up their own challenges for each other.
  • Press-ups, core, sling trainer, muscle ups etc., all without much evidence of stopwatches or structure, pretty much like everybody else but maybe a bit harder/more consistently
  • In the case of the adult, helping to coach the kids. Which is nice.

Maybe they do their other super-structured training with secret methods at other times or in other places. Or maybe they're just doing pretty much the same as everybody else, just harder / more consistently.

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#7 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 12:38:36 pm
I have a big problem understanding training Aero Power. Really being able to pull off something as nails as an AeroPower circuit you must be peaking . When Binney was talking it sounded like a term that was plugging a gap in his model.

I disagree. I think you're thinking of an power training, although its still bollocks if you are! Not quite sure why you think that??

Pete -
I took it up because it worked for me.

Patxi probably uses continuity, long resistance, short resistance, long boulder, short boulder as his break down at a guess, just based on old stuff of Macias I've read, though actually I don't know if he trained Patxi or only Ramon and Edu back in the day...
Anderson Bros 'do' aero cap (via whichever name they use), they don't do an cap though their hangs sessions are very an capesque, they don't split their PE into an and aero pow.
Don't know about the others.

The only real new exercise I got from the an/aero etc terminology was the an cap style training, which I never did before, the rest I used to do under different names.. Though if you finish sessions doing laps on long boulders with medium rests you'd be getting that too, as I've seen many do before. You're right that talking about ARC (or whatever), short PE and long PE is much more intuitive and defo an easier place to start. I'm probably guilty of confusing many people with that PDF I wrote, but I only wrote it to help people out who were interested but didn't have access to the people I'd had advice off.. And I only wrote it because I saw it work for me
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:55:31 pm by abarro81 »

Fultonius

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#8 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 04:37:43 pm

I don't see anything in an/aero/cap/pow that's any more useful than a training model of endurance (low intensity to high), power-endurance (short duration to long), power and strength. The later is easier to understand ime.

I can see this being the case if you have some understanding of those in the first place - if you're basically starting from scratch you need to figure out one or the other anyway.

I suppose I could have just worded it a different way like:

I've been mainly training 15-18 move boulder problem/short circuits with 2-3 mins rest, 3 reps per set at just under my limit. (3 or 4 sets). That and general "bouldering" combined with 10-20 mins of no-pump easy continuous climbing.

On my first outdoor sport climbing day I felt pretty strong on all the moves and was good for.....surprise surprise.....15 to 18 moves then got pumped. So, I want to focus on my [insert name here] to improve my ability to make the same difficulty of moves for a longer time. (it's another 10 moves to the good rest on that route).

My question, I guess, is - what combination of number of moves, rest time and difficulty, would be optimum to work on this deficiency. My plan is 30(ish) move circuits with rest of 1x to 2x climbing time, either 1 block of 7 or 8 reps or two split blocks. That and 4 x 4 boulder problems.

I was just wanted a steer on what is the right level of difficulty for the circuits. i.e. onsight level, onsight level -1 letter grade, minus 2 letter grades?

Fultonius

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#9 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 04:39:31 pm

Maybe they do their other super-structured training with secret methods at other times or in other places. Or maybe they're just doing pretty much the same as everybody else, just harder / more consistently.

Remember, this is me we're talking about - i don't do super structured training. I just want a general idea of what would be the best plan so I can try to mould my session roughly around that.

petejh

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#10 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 05:40:01 pm
If you're not into training and hardly ever do it then any remotely sensible training regime is going to improve your performance. If want to be fitter for 'XYZ' sort of route then just replicate that sort of route - in terms of no. of moves, difficulty of moves, time to climb the moves, wall angle, hold type. But at a higher level of difficulty then the intended route or routes.

If it's 'pumpy, sort of slightly powerful' forearm fitness then I'd use either a circuit or foot-on campus training (I prefer foot-on as it's almost totally targeted to forearm fitness at the expense of movement):

Circuit of 'x' number of moves - in a similar sequence of difficulty as your goal route if the goal route has distinctly easy and hard sections; or sustained difficulty if not. Time it so it approximately correlates the time it takes to climb the moves on the goal route(s). I'd make it so you can do it 4 times, to begin with, failure somewhere on the 4th rep. Double the rest time to climb time. I'd reduce the rest time each session as you gain fitness until you can do it with the same rest time as climb time. Once you reach that point (if you ever do before it comes time to just climb rather than train) you've got three options - make the circuit harder; do more laps of the same circuit; decrease the rest time. TBH I doubt you'll encounter that choice before you send.

Alternatively use the campus board with one foot on for the roughly same effect but more targeted to forearm fitness without the distraction of moving position. (for foot-on campus I switch foot at the bottom of each down ladder). For foot-on campus I'd focus on replicating the time to climb the goal route rather than replicating the number of moves as it's hard to hold back the pace on a campus board when there's no movement to think about except moving a hand. Guess the time if you have to, doesn't need to be exact. Likely to be somewhere between 1.30-2.30. Same protocol for resting time as before -double to begin with, as soon as successful on 4th rep decrease rest time until you get toward 1x. Then go smaller rungs; or do more reps (depending what sort of fitness is more value for the type of climbing you do - power with some endurance or endurance with some power); or decrease rest time to below 1x.

Do either or each of those twice to three times per week for 2-4 weeks and you should notice a massive difference in the number of hard moves you can bosh out before failing.

If it's 'one or two hard move shutting you down' then get stronger fingers. Get those anyway.

Doesn't really matter what it's called.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:45:40 pm by petejh »

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#11 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 05:58:27 pm
My plan is 30(ish) move circuits with rest of 1x to 2x climbing time, either 1 block of 7 or 8 reps or two split blocks.

I was just wanted a steer on what is the right level of difficulty for the circuits. i.e. onsight level, onsight level -1 letter grade, minus 2 letter grades?

I hope it's the right plan, because it's pretty much what I'm doing at the moment in the hope of being fit for the Frankenjura in May. I'm starting off at around onsight level, dropping the grade as i get tired so I can still hold on for 25 or so moves.

nai

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#12 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 06:10:35 pm
I'm starting off at around onsight level, dropping the grade as i get tired so I can still hold on for 25 or so moves.

I'd say that's wrong, it's quantity not quality.  You need to be able to make the hard moves that you started with when you're tired so dropping the intensity isn't helping with that.  Increase the rest time or drop the starting grade a notch to something you can manage a whole set of.

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#13 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 02, 2016, 07:01:46 pm
Good point, thanks

Fultonius

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#14 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 03, 2016, 08:48:20 am
Pete,  I don't really have a goal route just now. I want to be generally fit for E4/E5 trad at the fairhead meet.


Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk


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#15 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 03, 2016, 09:26:55 am
Seriously?

That's easy to train - climb loads and loads of mileage routes indoors at 6b+ to 7b, at the angle typically encountered on E4/5 i.e. off-vert to slightly overhanging, focusing on crimpier routes and avoiding the steep juggy routes, onsight, paying attention to hanging around a little longer than necessary on harder sections to work that sort of slow-climbing resting upwards endurance. Skip the occasional clip where safe to and practice some falling.
Do E2-4 mileage outside at every opportunity.

But surely you knew that?

(a 15 route pyramid is good - start at 6a peak at 7a+ back down to 6a. One at each grade. Don't time rests just try to complete every one onsight)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 09:39:41 am by petejh »

Fultonius

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#16 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 03, 2016, 05:09:50 pm
Seriously?


Yes and no.

My main aims this year are trad based. But I'd quite like to do some quick ascents of some Fr7cs and maybe try and get another Fr8a done. 

I guess I'm aiming to just become a better, fitter climber. It would be easier if I had a route in mind but I don't just now. I got to Fr8a before, but that was one-route. I've also done 1 x 7c+, 1 x 7c and 3 x 7b+s so my "pyramid" is rather tower shaped!!



Fultonius

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#17 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 03, 2016, 06:01:08 pm


(a 15 route pyramid is good - start at 6a peak at 7a+ back down to 6a. One at each grade. Don't time rests just try to complete every one onsight)

P.S. just had a good fun onsighting session at Ratho:

1 x 6a+
1 x 6b
1 x 6b+
1 x 7a
1 x 7b (failed 3m from top)
1 x 7a
1 x 7a
1 x 7a+
1 x 6b

All ~27m in length. Quite excited for spring as that's only my 4th session since switching from vaguely focussing on bouldering & short PE (AnCap) to longer PE and endurance. Climbing in a 3, so generally still feeling the previous route a little, but fairly well rested. No moves felt hard, but staying on felt hard!

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#18 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 09:16:02 am
Open to being convinced though.

I have to say that initially I was quite sceptical of it all but perhaps increasingly less so... What I do see (in people undertaking 'capacity' training) is a LARGE increase in training volume, more of an objective look at their end goal (what type of route they're interested in and therefore where they should emphasis their training) and also looking at which 'system' is weakest (effectively making an effort to identify their own weaknesses). Although all of that should seem blindingly obvious, I doubt many people actively do that kind of identification without a push. It's also a lot easier to stick to something if it's written down and has some thought behind it (for me certainly).

I have no doubt that one cycle of this stuff really helped me on a few trips abroad and last year feeling tonnes fitter on longer British routes; I'll never be able to say if the next magic bullet, wherever it comes from, wouldn't do the same.

With respect to the OP, in the early sessions (i.e. just after the switch from Cap to Pow) I do my AeroPow circuits in blocks of 4 as I get wildly pumped if not (the first session I was whimpering; thankfully the depot have placed the circuit bored out of sight of the general public). I'm not sure the difficulty matters too much as long as the holds are reasonably applicable and the same can be said of the angle?

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#19 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 09:50:18 am
Open to being convinced though.

I have to say that initially I was quite sceptical of it all but perhaps increasingly less so... What I do see (in people undertaking 'capacity' training) is a LARGE increase in training volume, more of an objective look at their end goal (what type of route they're interested in and therefore where they should emphasis their training) and also looking at which 'system' is weakest (effectively making an effort to identify their own weaknesses). Although all of that should seem blindingly obvious, I doubt many people actively do that kind of identification without a push. It's also a lot easier to stick to something if it's written down and has some thought behind it (for me certainly).


Makes sense

I have no idea what all the systems mean still but by just typing the names of them, or saying them in public periodically, my grade shot up. I'm only half joking.

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#20 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 12:27:16 pm
 :lol:

Paul - I get all of that (do you sense a 'but'). But (there you go) what you've just described is 'merely' the change in mindset and physical ability that comes when someone first gets into structured training; it isn't a mindset/physical reaction specific to any model. I went though that process quite a few years ago, of recognising weaknesses and focusing on goal routes and what sort of fitness/strength they demanded. I'm also a naturally curious person and like to try to understand this sort of stuff, compared to some of my climbing friends. So I'm not questioning 'training' I'm more questioning the utility of lots of 7th/low 8th grade climbers getting sucked in to a specific training model - the Anpow/cap/aeropow/cap model - that seems to me quite good for high-end climbers looking to fine-tune their fitness for high 8s/low 9s. 
I don't doubt it works. I do have doubts about its usefulness for the vast majority of people operating in the 7th and low 8th grades. From what I can tell from posts on ukb and talking to people at the crag, getting the exercises right for ancap/pow/aerepow appears to confuse as many people as it helps. I don't think you need to focus on fine-tuning your energy systems that much to climb up to 8a/8b.
I also wonder how much of this is led by fashion/personality.

I prefer a more intuitive (to me) model to base my training around, which is basically the model since the year dot:
PE - of a duration/hold count specific to the route/s I'm targeting (measured in time and number of moves),
Aero cap (Tom R.'s 'wasted miles theory' very useful - either v.easy or high intensity without pumping out),
Power - basic, measured on a campus board,
Finger strength - basic, measured on a fingerboard


I am interested in the theory behind larger 'caps' enabling larger 'pow' peaks. I suspect that starts to matter more towards the higher 8s.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 12:35:11 pm by petejh »

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#21 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 01:11:10 pm
I don't see anything in an/aero/cap/pow that's any more useful than a training model of endurance (low intensity to high), power-endurance (short duration to long), power and strength. The later is easier to understand ime.

Aren't they just different names for the same thing?  :shrug:

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#22 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 01:11:58 pm
I agree with what you're saying about these minutiae of training theories being unnecessarily complex for  someone at my level. I disagree, however, that the An/Aero/Pow/Cap model being much less "intuitive" than the older PE/Power model. Maybe it's more intuitive for you, because you've been exposed to it for longer?

For example:

Quote
Circuit of 'x' number of moves - in a similar sequence of difficulty as your goal route if the goal route has distinctly easy and hard sections; or sustained difficulty if not. Time it so it approximately correlates the time it takes to climb the moves on the goal route(s). I'd make it so you can do it 4 times, to begin with, failure somewhere on the 4th rep. Double the rest time to climb time. I'd reduce the rest time each session as you gain fitness until you can do it with the same rest time as climb time. Once you reach that point (if you ever do before it comes time to just climb rather than train) you've got three options - make the circuit harder; do more laps of the same circuit; decrease the rest time. TBH I doubt you'll encounter that choice before you send.

Alternatively use the campus board with one foot on for the roughly same effect but more targeted to forearm fitness without the distraction of moving position. (for foot-on campus I switch foot at the bottom of each down ladder). For foot-on campus I'd focus on replicating the time to climb the goal route rather than replicating the number of moves as it's hard to hold back the pace on a campus board when there's no movement to think about except moving a hand. Guess the time if you have to, doesn't need to be exact. Likely to be somewhere between 1.30-2.30. Same protocol for resting time as before -double to begin with, as soon as successful on 4th rep decrease rest time until you get toward 1x. Then go smaller rungs; or do more reps (depending what sort of fitness is more value for the type of climbing you do - power with some endurance or endurance with some power); or decrease rest time to below 1x.

Do either or each of those twice to three times per week for 2-4 weeks and you should notice a massive difference in the number of hard moves you can bosh out before failing.

Where does this fit into the "old" model? Is this PE...Short Endurance? Long Endurance? Not that it really matters as it's an answer to my original question of "what should train given my current situation".

The reason I asked about AnPow originally is that I got some good advice in the autumn which allowed me to loosely frame my winter's activities on those concepts. Considering the number of days I've averaged this winter (probably 1.5 sessions a week) I'm quite happy. That "plan" indicated that I should do An-Pow later on, closer to the time I'd want to be fit for routes. I've now done 4(ish) session of endurancy/long-pe type stuff (as described previously) and I feel strong on individual moves and medium sequences, and quickly getting better at full route length efforts.


All I wanted to know is "what level to train at". You seemed to suggest training at a level above my "target" route (not that I have one, but for the sake of argument lets assume a medium length, non-cruxy F8a). I would argue that if it's above that level I will only be able to do shorter sequences. In my mind that's firmly in the PE/AnCap territory (15-18 hard moves) which is what I've been doing for 2 months. Everyone else seems to suggest more reps with less rest at a lower level. So this baffles me more.

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#23 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 02:38:01 pm
The an/aero cap/power system has always seemed to be a useful framework for coaches and for sports science geeks, but doesn't really give people an intuitive understanding of what/how to train. I've often thought that for people wanting to arrange their own training an alternative model is more useful; one which is based on how elite cyclists often describe their training season.

In this model there are two, entirely separate concepts. One is the identification of what we want to train; in climbing this could be broken down into strength, short endurance and long endurance, although there are other ways to do it. The second concept is to separate your training into "base" phases and "quality" phases.

For base stuff most reps are completed but rests are short and reps are high. For quality work most reps are to failure but rest is long and reps are low.  At the start of a cycle most of the work will be base, with a few "quality" sessions thrown in. Towards the end of the cycle this is reversed. The base phase is around 2/3 of a cycle, the quality phase is around 1/3rd.

How does this map into specific exercises? There are many options, but one set of exercises would be

Strength
Base phase - dead hanging "anderson style" or repeaters
Quality phase - Chris Webb Parson's Max Hangs. Lopez protocol. Campusing.

Short endurance
Trained on 12-20 move circuits. Mix it up a bit so you do a range of circuit lengths.

Base Phase (aka ancap):
3 blocks of 4 reps. Rest between reps of order climbing time. ~10m between blocks. Complete most (not all) reps.
Quality Phase (aka anpow):
1 block of 4 reps. ~10m between reps. At your limit!

Long endurance
As for short endurance but on circuits of 35-60 moves. Again, mix it up a bit.
The base phase would be aerocap work, the quality phase aeropow.

I don't think this kind of training is as effective as one based around energy systems and a proper understanding of the adaptation times for each, but as an easy to understand system, I think this would get most people a long way. The beauty of the base/quality model is that it is fairly easy to generalise to other exercises to get the level right.

The difficulty of deciding whether to prioritise short endurance (ancap/pow) or long endurance (aerocap/pow) is also not addressed, but you're probably best off giving £100 to the nice folk at http://latticetraining.com/performance-analysis/.

Stu Littlefair

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#24 Re: Aeropow - setting the level?
April 04, 2016, 02:47:05 pm
Pete - I agree totally with you about the lack of clarity in the an/aero/cap/pow description of training. Too many people keep asking "what is aeropow" for anyone to disagree.

I quite like the way you break down your training but what your model lacks is the base/quality distinction. To take your power endurance training as an example. Your description doesn't tell me if I should be completing all reps (as I would during ancap, or base training early in my cycle) or going balls out and giving max efforts on every rep (anpow, or quality work). Historically, people have mostly done the latter. This works, but is non-optimal. This big advance of the an/aero/cap/pow model is realising that the base work is really useful; it's just that I don't think the language used to describe it is as clear as a base/quality description.

 

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