[i.munro]

Remember what the press somehow managed to do to Brown - another decent man who has exactly the strengths that JC is being criticised for lacking - a great speaker and a certain "Gravitas".  No leader of the Labour Party will get a hearing from the press.
Does this mean that Labour can't ever win an election ?
I'd say very v.possibly. In which case we may as well just ask Liz to pop her crown in the post to Murdoch,  but there's only one way to know for sure.

[erm]

Remember what the press somehow managed to do to Brown - another decent man who has exactly the strengths that JC is being criticised for lacking - a great speaker and a certain "Gravitas".  No leader of the Labour Party will get a hearing from the press.
Does this mean that Labour can't ever win an election ?
I'd say very v.possibly. In which case we may as well just ask Liz to pop her crown in the post to Murdoch,  but there's only one way to know for sure.

Comparing Brown and Corbyn seems a little counter factual: the party man versus the serial rebel?

[Nigel]

(Off-topic but the fact that JC’s stance on Israel-Palestine is  probably shared by most of the UK public post Op Protective Edge, most of the world’s countries at the UN General Assembly, and will probably be vindicated by history, seems also to be largely ignored.)

This seems a little dubious... If we accept for a moment that I am politically engaged and informed, the fact that I had to look up Op Protective Edge might incline you to think that most other people would too.

Part of the great challenge of the internet echo chambers is that we live in different ones. Most of what you wrote can be found in the pro-Corbyn echo chamber, but not in the echo chamber I live in. I'm not actually saying you are wrong, but if we want to live in a non-post fact world we probable have to strive to climb back out of the echo chambers.

Speaking of echo chambers there is a fair overlap of climate change denial and euro-phobia among senior figures in this country.

Fair one erm, though that particular one doesn't stem from an echo chamber in my case, I was stuck on the sofa for 3 weeks with a broken knee when Operation Protective Edge (or "Gaza 2014" if you prefer) was on rolling news! Appalling stuff but its burned onto my retinas sadly. I will accept that the operation's name may have passed you by but my point stands - due to that coverage of Gaza I think a lot of eyes were opened amongst the UK public.

[tomtom]

Well looks like Emily Thornberry has apologised to the Israeli ambassador - and the momentum activist who upset Ruth Smeeth has been chucked out of the Labour Party. (I know it's from the Huff)

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57761b3be4b0c94608006e68

[i.munro]

[
Comparing Brown and Corbyn seems a little counter factual: the party man versus the serial rebel?

That was my point. Very different figures, same result.

[36chambers]

Well looks like Emily Thornberry has apologised to the Israeli ambassador - and the momentum activist who upset Ruth Smeeth has been chucked out of the Labour Party. (I know it's from the Huff)

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57761b3be4b0c94608006e68

“I saw the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP, you can see who is working hand-in-hand,” he said.

Is that actually all Marc Wadsworth said, or am I missing something completely?

[Nigel]

Erm, on the wider point of echo chambers, I totally agree that we should try to get a rounded view of a situation by stepping out into the “wider world” so to speak. I do try and do so. For instance I am of the view that JC can’t lead the Labour party as it stands. Let’s face facts, he currently isn’t leading anyone except maybe Mcdonnell, Abbott, and a handful of others as the rest of the PLP have gone off the reservation.

However the question then is, in this particular case, what do you do about it? The “other” echo chamber is that he’s a decent man who can’t lead, never could, therefore for pragmatic reasons he needs to resign to unite the party. I do know that other view. The problem is that that it probably won’t work as the party will shed members like hell and will have lost the Unions. Now if they could graft Corbyn’s brains and policies into someone else’s body then everything might be OK. But that isn’t the proposal. The proposal currently is Angela Eagle who is best known for coming 4th in the Deputy Leader contest 9 months ago, and abstained on benefits cuts. Its all very well being pragmatic but that version of “pragmatism” is re-writing the dictionary I’m afraid.

My view is whatever echo chamber you’re in you’re probably not going to “win” in the sense of getting the Labour Party you want, so you might as well stand up for what you believe in and see what comes out in the wash. I believe in Corbyn and what he stands for so unless they do manage to do the grafting surgery that's what I'm sticking with.

[petejh]

Thanks for the global judgement Pete. Have a nice life. :D

TT before you flounce completely out of my ukb forum life I should add that when I typed 'most thing you say on here need disagreeing with' I actually meant 'some of the things you've said on this thread'. Not ukb in general - most of what you say in general on here is totally sound. That's forum posts for you.


Now, what are the markets doing? They were supposed to crash through the floor. Oh - the ftse100's now at an 11-month high.
Well the 250 is a closer reflection of the UK economy though. And the ftse250 is closing in fast on wiping out any losses post-brexit.

Now, where's Boris fucking Johnson? He was supposed to be running for PM and threatening our nation with his ego-centric foolishness. Oh - his career's dead and buried, probably for ever.

Now what's happening about freedom of movement of people, labour, services and goods? That's supposed to be impossible post a 'leave' result. Oh - hmm... well we'll find out... but 50% of the people that actually matter - because they'll be the ones negotiating - are talking about it in positive terms. I feel fairly confident that when/if we finally leave the EU in >2.5 years time it will continue to be much as it is now in practice. Perhaps with a fairer system for non-EU skilled workers.


No-one among the vocal doom-sayers on here predicted any of this would happen. The overarching view was/is cynicism and a 'determined that it can't work' attitude.

I disagree with that view. And it's worth pointing out that the track record of the most vocal folk on here of accurate predictions is so abysmal that if you said good morning I'd check my watch.

Oh and a lot of 'what Nigel says' about echo chambers, facebook/twiter etc.  I use facebook to find climbing partners, that's it. And about 'having the self-belief to stand up for what you believe in and seeing what comes out in the wash'.

[Will Hunt]

So if nothing's changed, Pete, what was the point of entertaining the uncertainty and souring our reputation amongst our neighbours?

[Oldmanmatt]

So if nothing's changed, Pete, what was the point of entertaining the uncertainty and souring our reputation amongst our neighbours?

This.

And pretty sure the prediction was that we would be marginalised, in a position of having to abide by all/most of the rules anyway, lose any ability to influence future rule changes, risk a break up of the union and be financially worse off long term.

The argument that x,y and z countries are "queueing up" to sign trade deals with us; does not mean those trade deals will be more advantageous to us than (and heres the important bit) *the ones we already have with those countries via the EU*.
In fact, the prediction is that we will be in a weaker position than the EU as a whole was and that we would be less attractive as an investment destination than we were.

These things do appear to be happening, albeit way too soon to tell.


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[a dense loner]

Yep gorilla's thumb

[stone]

I don't know anything about how the Labour Party works but if we have until 2020 before the next general election and JC wins the Labour leadership, could all the anti-JC MPs get de-selected and new candidates run for 2020? So build a new Labour Party that reflects the membership view rather than the PLP view? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-deselection-deselect-mp-rules-party-a7107556.html
The SNP produced a new set of MPs from scratch after all.

[slackline]

The argument that x,y and z countries are "queueing up" to sign trade deals with us; does not mean those trade deals will be more advantageous to us than (and heres the important bit) *the ones we already have with those countries via the EU*.

They'll be in a queue for a while...

Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave.

It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

[36chambers]

I thought this was quite apt (facebook video link, so not sure it will work).

https://www.facebook.com/RTUKnews/videos/1625038167786060/

[tomtom]

And this is food for thought.. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1304633102897424&id=130437690316977

[Oldmanmatt]

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[Offwidth]

Now, what are the markets doing? They were supposed to crash through the floor. Oh - the ftse100's now at an 11-month high.
Well the 250 is a closer reflection of the UK economy though. And the ftse250 is closing in fast on wiping out any losses post-brexit.

Now, where's Boris fucking Johnson? He was supposed to be running for PM and threatening our nation with his ego-centric foolishness. Oh - his career's dead and buried, probably for ever.

Now what's happening about freedom of movement of people, labour, services and goods? That's supposed to be impossible post a 'leave' result. Oh - hmm... well we'll find out... but 50% of the people that actually matter - because they'll be the ones negotiating - are talking about it in positive terms. I feel fairly confident that when/if we finally leave the EU in >2.5 years time it will continue to be much as it is now in practice. Perhaps with a fairer system for non-EU skilled workers.

No-one among the vocal doom-sayers on here predicted any of this would happen. The overarching view was/is cynicism and a 'determined that it can't work' attitude.

I disagree with that view. And it's worth pointing out that the track record of the most vocal folk on here of accurate predictions is so abysmal that if you said good morning I'd check my watch.

That looks like the type of exaggeration you are seemingly railing against (or was Osbourne secretly posting here and I missed it?). Is the FTSE index detatched from the pound? Have the markets maybe backed down a little as freeish movement of people and freeish trade seems the most likely result at present (the opposite of what brexit leaders said pre vote with their discovering Unicorn scenarios)?  Isn't no brexit still a possibility? By any measure world markets have crashed following the implications of the vote (protectionist instincts) and the key issue in this is the value lost is much more than the difference we sent to the EU. We will never know the difference as viewing the parallel world where we just voted remain isnt possible but my guess would be a small  market rally and slightly strengthened pound. Things look so good that Osbourne has given up on austerity and Carney is signalling an interest rate drop.

[Johnny Brown]

Exchange rates are not recovering The project I'm on in the Caribbean now has a big hole in its funding...

[Ru]

Markets crashed because of fears of economic slowdown Brexit. FTSE recovered because BoE promised summer stimulus to prop it up. FTSE 100 also disconnected from UK economy to extent because many are international companies (so not dependent on UK trade) but records results in £ (so they increase when converted). None of this means that Brexit fears were misplaced.

[Offwidth]

A more likely post brexit scenario. No hellfire, just the elite win more at the expense of the ordinary folk.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/brexit-britain-elites-run-amok

[Oldmanmatt]

An interesting article. I suppose it's very true that inequality at the end of the 19th century made this era look like a Kibbutz and that the Great War, Great Depression , even Greater War combo; levelled the playing field somewhat.
Is this really the start of another great upheaval (or at least, are we now feeling the first major waves from the meltdown of the Middle East)?
The defence/military media (Janes etc) have been lamenting the loss of the "technological edge" by the Western militaries (or more realistically, the advancement of certain "Eastern" powers) and the advantage that had held the world in check since the end of the Cold war.

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21701501-economists-who-foresaw-backlash-against-globalisation-consensus?fsrc=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/theconsensuscrumbles

Which makes me think of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times



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[rich d]

my conversation from earlier today with the mother in law. 
"I bet you think that I'm racist because I voted out"
"no,  I don't Maggie,  why are you racist? "
"of course not"
"so why did you vote out? "
"because we're being overrun by immigrants,  I don't like immigrants.  just because I don't like immigrants I suppose in your eyes that makes me racist"
FFS!!!! 

[a dense loner]

I like her, at least she's honest.

[slackline]

Immigrants != race.

Not liking immigrants is called xenophobia.

[Oldmanmatt]

Immigrants != race.

Not liking immigrants is called xenophobia.

Haven't you heard?

This is ok now and won't cause any problems, as long as everyone stays in their own village and stops questioning their betters.


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