[tomtom]

The biggest disappointment to me was summarised by an FT article FD posted on FB (sorry ).

It described this as the first post factual campaign. When facts came up against myths - myths won every time. Eg the £350 mill a day on the bus that was shown time and time again to be (to be blunt) a lie- but people believed Boris and Gove instead of the fecking facts! Never before have I seen so many people be convinced that what the Brexit politicians said was true - when on many times it was baseless. Made up. Fabricated. Gove said 'we've heard from enough experts' and people seemed to agree. Why? It's nuts.

Facts and knowledge obviously don't matter any more. Bumbling charm and a mop of scruffy blonde hair seem to be more convincing than a room full of experts.

Those who believed the lies they were being fed by the leave campaign - may well end up suffering the most. Maybe in 5 years time when we're picking over the bones of what went wrong this will be exposed in the same way as the Iraq war lies have. Though it's not like we've been conned - people have just been fucking stupid enough to believe the shot.

[Three Nine]

Its nothing new, don't be so naive.

Hitler was full of shit. Everyone knew he was full of shit. He was full of shit in a charismatic and convincing way and the NSDAP became the largest party in the Reichstag.

[tomtom]

Its nothing new, don't be so naive.

Hitler was full of shit. Everyone knew he was full of shit. He was full of shit in a charismatic and convincing way and the NSDAP became the largest party in the Reichstag.

I'm not being naive. And it's new in the context of an open and free world (mostly) where we have access to uncensored information. We even have laws to ensure we can get information.

I'll now patronise you as you called me naive :p

When Hitler came to power there was no tv. No global tv. No internet. The only sources of media were state radio, cinema and newspapers (at the control of the state of need be). We are in a completely different age where near anyone can check a fact in 5 seconds on a smartphone. People have an incredible access to information that they've never had. It's enabled things like the Arab Spring (showing that information cannot be hidden anymore).

[Offwidth]

Harrogate is a 'blue rinse' conservative dominated town,  I'd expect it to be firmly in the leave camp.

Interesting to note that Harrogate was one of three authorities in Yorkshire and Humber that returned a Remain majority.

I was clearly very wrong... sincere apologies to the model citizens of Harrogate (note to self: don't regard bad experiences in what must be tourist tea shops as typical of a town). Please feel free to extract maximum fun at my expense in any future meets.

 I am particualrly depressed with the age range and educational attainment range on the vote (r4 news this am had 72% of grads voted remain). Plus, has anyone got an audio clip of that mad old bloke on the radio 2 news this am crying because our soldiers now won't have to fight under the germans (what a welcome back to britain!)

[Bonjoy]

Tomtom- You could argue we have an overabundance of information, much of it claiming factuality. Nobody can possibly have the time to properly check the facts on everything, so they go for lower effort alternatives such as believing the opinions of people or organisations they think share their interests.
Check your own facebook feed if you doubt the power of confirmation bias. Mine is full of people preaching to the converted. How much of that is me being friends with the like-minded and how much is the product of an algorithem I don't know.
The huge volume of competing info more than anything acts to keep people rooted in their existing biases. Whatever you want to think, there's an article out there somewhere telling you are right and quoting a whole load of 'facts' to back it up.

[tomtom]

Yup. True. Esp a factor in the Us where the tv news doesn't have to be neutral. Leading to Fox News etc..generating its viewers based on beliefs that can be self perpetuated etc.

But we have access - incredibly good access to a broad range of information. So we can find out about things if we want to. Leave were in some ways clever by never having a plan for how to leave - so no one could fact check it etc...

Social media is very self selecting/reek forcing in terms of what you see - but it's easy to find info in other views.

Here I think it's an age thing - and maybe reflect s the vote leave/remain age factors. Younger people - more tech savvy - but more importantly grown up in an age where they are used to taking in vast amounts of info from disparate sources - sorting the wheat from the chaff - then snapchatting it

10 years ago we had to teach our students about the dangers of getting wrong info for the web. Now there's no need - they've been filtering good from bad from the age of - I dunno 8 or more...long winded answer sorry. Rambling and Time for bed for me - not enough sleep last night.

[tomtom]

(And loads of typo's - sorry dave)

[A Jooser]

I've never felt English.

Might sound daft, but born in Devon and raised from 5 in Cornwall, amongst my mothers Cornish family; "England" meant "Home counties" and we were the forgotten. The unheard.

It changed when I joined the Navy and my world view shifted.
But, there has been a lot of shit hurled (if you didn't see it, great) and I have unfriended old school friends on Farcebuck; who posted rank racist shit (predominantly about East Europeans) that cut me to the quick. Remember my kids are half Romanian and I know those people well.
Even had school parents telling me how great it would be without the foreigners in the school (all 12 out of 300), unaware that my kids are those foreigners.

I worry about the rise of the right, the new-found confidence of the idiots.
I, frankly, fear a lurch to the right.

My erstwhile Countymen, are of course a complete bunch of dicks:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

And to them I have to say...




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I was born and raised in Cornwall too, and I've never felt English am not English. Now, I'm sure many may find that hard to understand but identity is a peculiar thing.

We are very remote from those that govern us here and that's the main reason I did not vote on Thursday. Brussels is a damn sight more autocratic than Westminster but I really couldn't see the point in choosing between these two distant, undemocratic (to a greater or lesser degree), unrepresentative institutions - both of which know sweet FA about the needs and concerns of Cornwall and care even less. I knew there were people in this world whose lives would be more directly effected by the result than mine; I was happy to let them decide.

Now I'm sorry to hear about your experience at the school gate, bigotry is a terrible thing. We should unite against racism, bigotry and intolerance where ever it's found. It's not too hard to see how such views could, perhaps, have been shaped by the media repeatedly highlighting cases of criminals coming to this country from elsewhere even though any sensible person would know the acts, deeds or opinions of individuals do not represent the countries, peoples or places from which those individuals come.

I find generalizations are best avoided in such instances.

What most depresses me about today is seeing so many comments from the enlightened remain voters dismissing all the leavers as being motivated by racism, uneducated or thick. Perhaps it's better to be tolerant of people who express opinions that might contradict one's own, and try to understand them, rather than let the disagreement ferment hate.

While I understand your disappointment at the result I'd ask you to think twice before dismissing the Cornish as 'idiots' or 'complete dicks' just because 56.6% of them in Cornwall and 43.6% of Scilly expressed a view that didn't match your own. We should unite against bigotry where ever it's found.

I hope it goes without saying that I found the first part of your post quite at odds with the second.

Anyone fearing that the Referendum result was a lurch to the right might like to look into why so many of the working class, Socialists, Communists and Trade Unionists voted to leave...


Leave campaigner George Galloway: "There is nothing left-wing about unlimited mass immigration. It decapitates the countries from [which] the immigrants leave, and drives down wages in those where they arrive. The wealthy benefit from it, as they can afford cheap labor for their companies, or cheap au-pairs, cheap baristas, cheap plumbers. But the working class suffers. Likewise, there is nothing left-wing about what is effectively a “whites only” immigration policy.

"As it stands the entire population of Romania could move here if it wished to do so, overnight, yet our brothers and sisters from the Commonwealth, with whom we share so much and to whom we owe so much, have to jump through hoops of fire, rendering it virtually impossible for a Jamaican husband, an Indian son or a Pakistani sister, to get a Visa for their respective wife, mother or brother, even to visit. I have nothing against the people of Romania, in fact I like Romanians, and I believe I am the only British politician to have a book published in Romanian. But this, clearly, is grotesquely unfair and unsustainable."

[Oldmanmatt]

This is a more than fair point.


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[Oldmanmatt]

Things are moving fast:

http://news.sky.com/story/1717150/germany-warns-of-brexit-domino-effect

Associate membership?

WTF?




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[Oldmanmatt]

Oh, and I'm not the only one from Wadebridge that's amused by my brethren's thought processes...

 


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[nai]

We are very remote from those that govern us here and that's the main reason I did not vote on Thursday.

Can I ask, did you vote in the AV referendum? 

[Nibile]

Its nothing new, don't be so naive.

Hitler was full of shit. Everyone knew he was full of shit. He was full of shit in a charismatic and convincing way and the NSDAP became the largest party in the Reichstag.

Off topic. Did you study history on the back of a pack of chips? I highly suggest that you read something more accurate, to prevent appearing a fool once again.
"Life and death in the Third Reich" by Peter Fritzsche could be a good start.
End of off topic.

[A Jooser]

I didn't Vote in the AV Referendum and, to be honest, forgot we had even had one. As it turned out my vote wouldn't have swung it! In Cornwall it was overshadowed by a boundary commission review recommending a cross-Tamar constituency so the whole process was not so welcome here.

No electoral system is entirely fair but, given the right circumstances and candidate, first past the post can lead to progressive parties securing seat(s) - Green MP Caroline Lucas being a good example. The main problem is the smaller parties can rarely compete with the big-spending campaigns of Con/Lib/Lab.

[Jim]

As it turned out my vote wouldn't have swung it

Said you and the other 28% of the population

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Re the Lexit movie.

I'm not much swayed by arguments that attempt to appeal to the "true nature" of things.

Neither did I think of the vote as a binary choice of "Left vs Right" or "Society vs The Market".

The outcome may be binary, but the choice was a matter of interpretation - i.e. not between right versus wrong in and of itself. It's difficult to stand for what you believe in, on two paths at the same time. I feel that there were those who voted to support what they believed, and those who voted for the apparently most convenient option. I hate the thought of a second referendum, just so that those who might think they made a mistake can vote "in", just because it may now appear the better option financially.

Anyway, shouldn't we be arguing over whether it's "little britain" or "Little Britain"? 

[A Jooser]

As it turned out my vote wouldn't have swung it

Said you and the other 28% of the population

My comment was re. the AV Referendum where 57.8% of the electorate decided not to vote.

[A Jooser]

Re the Lexit movie.

I'm not much swayed by arguments that attempt to appeal to the "true nature" of things.

Neither did I think of the vote as a binary choice of "Left vs Right" or "Society vs The Market".

I wasn't swayed enough by them either, certainly not to take it to the ballot box, but it does help explain why some of the old Labour heartlands went the way they did. I don't generally like to think in terms of Left and Right, but it's how the Referendum has been packaged and it's clear to me that there were reasonable arguments either way from across the political spectrum (although it must be said there seems to have been near-unanimity that the EU needs reform).

Had the cross-party Grassroots Out campaign become the official one I think perceptions of what the Referendum was about, and how things were conducted, may have been quite different. Instead the BBC's coverage seemed to focus on the inter-Tory bunfight liberally spattered with Farrage.

Ultimately, I favour de-centralisation and people's right to self-determination. Law makers need to be close to the people the laws effect and politicians close to those they serve - both in the geographical and cultural sense. An ever-expanding Federal Europe is the antitheses of this.

[rodma]

Re the Lexit movie.

I'm not much swayed by arguments that attempt to appeal to the "true nature" of things.

Neither did I think of the vote as a binary choice of "Left vs Right" or "Society vs The Market".

I wasn't swayed enough by them either, certainly not to take it to the ballot box, but it does help explain why some of the old Labour heartlands went the way they did. I don't generally like to think in terms of Left and Right, but it's how the Referendum has been packaged and it's clear to me that there were reasonable arguments either way from across the political spectrum (although it must be said there seems to have been near-unanimity that the EU needs reform).

Had the cross-party Grassroots Out campaign become the official one I think perceptions of what the Referendum was about, and how things were conducted, may have been quite different. Instead the BBC's coverage seemed to focus on the inter-Tory bunfight liberally spattered with Farrage.

Ultimately, I favour de-centralisation and people's right to self-determination. Law makers need to be close to the people the laws effect and politicians close to those they serve - both in the geographical and cultural sense. An ever-expanding Federal Europe is the antitheses of this.

Interesting points, but cornish pasties and clotted cream enjoy protected status under eu laws, so perhaps Brussels was more effective than Westminster.

At least anyone will be able to make and sell clotted cream and Cornish pasties soon; that won't impact on anyone in Cornwall I'm sure :D

[Duma]

Not to mention the ~£70 million a year that Cornwall received from the EU, I'm sure that our new government will be happy to match this...

[a dense loner]

This is like reading about guys pining for their ex's who fucked them off. It's time for a new woman I'm afraid

[tomtom]

Stop calling me Dense. The answers still no

And you know I don't like roses.

[shark]

Its nothing new, don't be so naive.

Hitler was full of shit. Everyone knew he was full of shit. He was full of shit in a charismatic and convincing way and the NSDAP became the largest party in the Reichstag.

Off topic. Did you study history on the back of a pack of chips? I highly suggest that you read something more accurate, to prevent appearing a fool once again.
"Life and death in the Third Reich" by Peter Fritzsche could be a good start.
End of off topic.

The Forum software has informed me that Godwin's rule has been invoked.

Time for a new thread?

I like Dense's "Brave New World"

[Nibile]

 
By the way, do I need a passport to post here now?

[finbarrr]

Ultimately, I favour de-centralisation and people's right to self-determination. Law makers need to be close to the people the laws effect and politicians close to those they serve - both in the geographical and cultural sense. An ever-expanding Federal Europe is the antitheses of this.

+1
thank you for boiling this point down.

all partys in europe talk of reforming the e.u. whenever they talk of the problems , but it is very very hard to reform a "supra national" institution. so they don't.
can anyone explain why we should trust a system that can not fix itself? 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html
"It is perhaps the most outlandish of the European Union’s excesses; a £130 million travelling circus that once a month sees the European Parliament decamp from Belgium to France.
Over the course of the weekend, some 2,500 plastic trunks will be loaded on to five lorries and driven almost 300 miles from Brussels to Strasbourg.
On Monday, about 1,000 politicians, officials and translators will then make the same journey on two specially chartered trains hired at taxpayers’ expense.
A few thousand more will go to Strasbourg by other means, as the European Parliament switches from Brussels, its permanent base, to its “official” home in northern France."


now i don't think the majority of the leave voters had this in mind when they voted.
but i do think the majority of the leave voters felt that they were not represented in the e.u. and therefor did not want to be in the e.u..
they probably feel that they are not represented in westminster... they would probably vote to leave westmister if they could. or