[tomtom]

ITS A POLL... pretty self explanatory (those tapatalk users - you have to go to web view to vote)

Lets see how the UKB collective reflects the nation...

[petejh]

Undecided. I've yet to read through the potential pros/cons of Exit. This fad of adding the first 2 letters of one word to the second word to make a shorter 'thing' is moronic and reflects a void at the heart of public thought. Or Puthought.

[dave]

I reckon in or out will make virtually no real difference to the average man on the street. It's looking like the arguments for leaving are mainly ideological thoughts of keeping johnny foreigner out and "taking back control", whatever that means.

[Oldmanmatt]

I reckon in or out will make virtually no real difference to the average man on the street. It's looking like the arguments for leaving are mainly ideological thoughts of keeping johnny foreigner out and "taking back control", whatever that means.

I can't see it being met with equanimity, a Gallic/Germanic/Latin shrug and business as usual.
Anyone got friends/family currently residing in places where they would no longer have right of abode?
Fancy applying for a Visa to visit the Tarn?

I reckon the EU will be pissed, make us pay and remind us that we really ain't all that in the modern world.


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[shark]

You've spoilt it tomtom.

Would have been more interesting to have a vote based on what people would vote if they had to vote today and see if views had changed in 4 months.

[tomtom]

We can still have another vote in a few months time... all is not lost...

Its an interesting one this... I wonder is there really an issue or is this just a reflection of a bored media and the Tory parties internal divisions? The Westminster wanking circle starting to eat itself at the same time?

Its also interesting as Tory people (who seem to be the largest body of the out voters/people) are traditionally people who are scared of things. They vote because they are worried about things like the red plague/terrorists/tax rises/Islam/foreigners/Ken Livingstone etc..  Scared of the unknown... needing reassurance. Yet, to vote out would be a much greater step into the unknown that voting in... there must be some heavily conflicted hide under the bed-ers out there uncomfortably rustling through the daily mail/express/telegraph.... 

[shark]

Leaving aside the migrant issue (a freaky populist sideshow IMO) and looking longer term it seems to me that there are two key strands to address in making a decision and how much weight you put on either of them. Are we better off politically integrating with Europe and are we better off economically ?

Politically the fact that Cameron's extensive negotiations have lead to something closer to a mission statement than a set of fundamental reforms suggests to me that any meaningful leverage on EU policy is limited especially as we have stated we are not 100% committed and aren't part of the Euro (but still partially in hock in teh event of a meltdown). However, we are committed in the UK to legislation formed in Brussells. Is that a sacrifice worth making?

Economically there seems no doubt that there will be a short term dent in GDP and unknowable consequences and outcomes for all manner of businesses and trading situations to be sorted out. But in the round after short term pain I think the long term effect will be minimal. 

So currently, on both counts, my gut tells me that in the long term we will better off as a more independent and responsive nation making our decisions.     

 

[tomtom]

Are your guts responding to a recent Eurosceptic gut microbe implant? (farmed from a huge vat of cloned Farage poo..)

[fried]

In. Or 6 months sitting in French goverment offices trying to get some piece of paper that noone understands, knows if exists or will actually want to see if I do get it (whatever it is).

[tomtom]

From a scientist and academic point of view - I think we'd be bonkers to leave. We gain from both common EU funding and the total ease of collaboration that the EU brings. "Team" America in my field is incredibly myopic and inward looking. Team Europe is not - because its part of a genuine team... On a day to day basis I carry out research in collaboration with fellow EU scientists and whilst some of that would probably not stop (if we were to leave)  - parts of it would certainly become more difficult.

Outside of work, in the tomtom bubble I can see no possible benefit from leaving the EU. None of the arguments for leaving have any resonance with me.

I fully expect Font graders to say in and V graders to say out

[Oldmanmatt]

I love the idea that we could be some little Swiss, with Bowlers, tea and custard creams, instead of Toblerone.
But there is a limit for the existence of such places and they are tolerated by the worlds powerhouses only as long as they provide the services those houses would rather not be seen to supply.
The UAE is very much in the thrall of the house of Saud and the other more senior descendants of the Prophet, who want a weekend off from all those rules.
Singers occupies a similar status, a little further East.
Monaco for the Euros (Lichtenstein and Andora for the less ostentatious money).
A few Caribbean islands let the Yanks chill on the whole tax malarkey.
Bermadu, those rocks in the channel, the island of tailless cats etc etc.
All around the mountainous piggy bank.

At the moment, we offer a gateway to Europe, a gap in the fence; neither all the way in, nor an outsider. We profit greatly from that.
Exit makes us a redundant, damp, island, with some quaint habits to titivate the tourists.
Of course, we can fall back on our vast natural resources...

Oh, hang on, maybe not.

Our strength must lie in our abundant colonies and loyal people's, upon whom the sun never sets?
Shit, we nearly lost our Northern partners a few months ago and they're in the same damn time zone  (and might still).
Imagine little old England, an island of independence, sandwiched between a European Eire, Scotland and (why not?) Wales?
I am sure of the loyalty and continued support of those bastions of integrity, commonly referred to as "the Financial sector", who will of course remain headquartered in London (despite those pesky little annoyances that will arise out of our exit) and see no difficulties in the future of our biggest single "industry".

And I'm sure, the lack of collective bargaining power will not affect our dealings with the worlds minor players, like China, the US, India even.
After all, they do love us soooooo much for all that Civilisation we brought them.
The real question?
Small, wet, windy island; with nothing much to offer or major global economy (argumentative and petty, but powerful)?




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[Falling Down]

I'm pretty sure a Scottish and Welsh referendum would follow with both countries becoming part of the EU.  Border crossings on the M56... Madness.

I'm "in" for various reasons.

[Fultonius]

I reckon the EU will be pissed, make us pay and remind us that we really ain't all that in the modern world.

This ^^   Scotland certainly seems to be getting punished for even considering the option of leaving the UK - I think Europe may do the same to the UK.

[Muesli]

Now Boris has decided to bat for the out team, if the outies win and Cameron resigns as a result we could end the year with Boris as PM in waiting and Trump as president elect .


were doomed.

[Oldmanmatt]

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[lagerstarfish]

Now Boris has decided to bat for the out team, if the outies win and Cameron resigns as a result we could end the year with Boris as PM in waiting and Trump as president elect .


were doomed.

on the bright side   - this might be the right stimulus for restarting Spitting Image; although it might just look like another Muppets Movie

[fried]

Boris
Trump
Erdogan
Putin
Lepen

What could possibly go wrong?

[Will Hunt]

Will we be better off financially? I don't know. Maybe. If we are, will we see an improvement in the NHS or education? Will we have more money in our pockets at the end of the month? Will we fuck as like. Certainly not by any margin significant to be noticeable, unless perhaps we are already very rich.

Will we be better off legislatively? I don't think so (speaking from my perspective as somebody who works in environmental regulation in the water industry). Consider how our bathing waters and inland waterbodies have changed in the last twenty-something years. We now have a string of Blue Flag beaches up the Yorkshire coast (and elsewhere), and we have salmon in the Aire, the Don, and the Dearne (to name a few major urban rivers). As more and more fish passes are built, this will only improve further. A lot of this (not all by any means) has been done by the water industry and represents the result of millions and millions of pounds of investment in Yorkshire alone. As much as the industry has a positive environmental outlook, there is nothing that gets a cheque written quite like a legislative driver - be that the Water Framework Directive, Bathing Waters Directive, Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive etc etc etc.
Of course, the directives are not all perfect, and you could argue that we might have written pieces of legislation of our own. But would you really trust a government who "cut the green crap" to do this? Or would you expect them to back down after the Daily Mail presents the proposed changes as just another excuse to put the bills up? Perhaps a successive government would tear up the new bills as a political move when taking office (because obviously anything an outgoing government did was very very bad). EU legislation has the opportunity to make long term changes that may be unpopular at first, but deliver necessary and beneficial change in the long run, environmental or otherwise.
Whenever they bring this issue up on the news they present the counter argument - EU legislation outlaws the sale of vaccuum cleaners over 1600 Watts. Is that really the worst, most sovereignty-infringing, most liberty-depriving thing they can come up with?!

Will leaving see us better off culturally? Will it improve how we are seen in the eyes of our neighbours and the rest of the world? Absolutely not. For me this is the most compelling reason to stay in.

[mrjonathanr]

Will we be better off financially? I don't know. Maybe.

The UK has a very poor base of bilingually skilled workers, excepting community languages. That's why a lot of recruitment from global companies just bypasses the UK completely and they recruit from universities elsewhere.  We are losing billions due to our abject language skills.

Now would the loss of current unfettered access to EU markets cause a further reduction in investment from global companies? Or will Boris ride to our economic rescue like St George?

The other point to make is that the obvious benefit commercially from being out is from being out of current EU protections of workers' rights. Companies may not make more, but CEOs and shareholders will from downgrading employee terms and conditions.

[Will Hunt]

Will we be better off financially? I don't know. Maybe.

The UK has a very poor base of bilingually skilled workers, excepting community languages. That's why a lot of recruitment from global companies just bypasses the UK completely and they recruit from universities elsewhere.  We are losing billions due to our abject language skills.

Now would the loss of current unfettered access to EU markets cause a further reduction in investment from global companies? Or will Boris ride to our economic rescue like St George?

The other point to make is that the obvious benefit commercially from being out is from being out of current EU protections of workers' rights. Companies may not make more, but CEOs and shareholders will from downgrading employee terms and conditions.

I don't disagree with any of that, however Farage and Co would have us believe that the country would be richer out of the union, citing expensive membership fees etc. My point was more, even if we did end up better off on net, I don't think those benefits would be translated to the majority.

[mrjonathanr]

 

[johnx2]

UK out of EU, Scotland out of UK, in England a few landlords buy all the property and the rest of us live in gin lane/satanic mill/turnip-based bucolic misery/whatever.

Where's the fucking opposition?

[lagerstarfish]

will we have to go back to B grades if we leave?

if we stay in, can the Euros offer us a decent spread of overgraded 7Cs?

[erm]

Just a little out right thought theft from the Economist on the subject of national sovereignty:

"
The flaw in this case lies in the tradition's idealistic definition of sovereignty. For Mr Johnson and Mr Gove, being sovereign is like being pregnant—you either are or you aren’t. Yet increasingly in today’s post-Westphalian world, real sovereignty is relative. A country that refuses outright to pool authority is one that has no control over the pollution drifting over its borders, the standards of financial regulation affecting its economy, the consumer and trade norms to which its exporters and importers are bound, the cleanliness of its seas and the security and economic crises propelling shock waves—migration, terrorism, market volatility—deep into domestic life. To live with globalisation is to acknowledge that many laws (both those devised by governments and those which bubble up at no one’s behest) are international beasts whether we like it or not. If sovereignty is the absence of mutual interference, the most sovereign country in the world is North Korea.
"

[Muesli]

UK out of EU, Scotland out of UK, in England a few landlords buy all the property and the rest of us live in gin lane/satanic mill/turnip-based bucolic misery/whatever.

Where's the fucking opposition?

Any serious opposition to tory hegemony was crushed in 1984/5. One can only hope that they succeed in tearing themselves apart with the referendum, unfortunately they will  probably tear Briton apart at the same time.


The end is nigh (again).