[blamo]

What's "undulating periodization"?

This gives an explanation:  http://willanglin.squarespace.com/climbingtraining/2015/2/21/dxnufcc0fktkdwset6crghtref9gqb

[Nibile]

I think that having a proper periodization is already difficult, without professional coaching, let alone an ondulating one. I doubt someone who buys a training manual is capable of handling this sort of hyper specific aspects.
Charts and programs have never worked for me, even when I was coached; too many life variables make things sketchy. I find it much better to carry on a very general and long term plan, with small blocks of one week. Checking that short term progress is constant, ensures me also long term progress.
Anyway, no critique to the book or author, just my experience with periodization and training manuals.

[Mumra]

From what I understand this is why undulating periodisation would be better. A mixture of training stimulus that's non-linear. Or have I miss read?

[Nibile]

From what I understand this is why undulating periodisation would be better. A mixture of training stimulus that's non-linear. Or have I miss read?

Are you referring to my post?

[Mumra]

I was saying (poorly), that from what I've read undulating is another term for non-linear, which is what you described as wanting. I'm more confused now lol

[Nibile]

Sorry but I don't think I ever said that, officer.
My post was just about my experience that even linear periodization is hard to follow, unless you have lots of time and very adjustable life committments, so an ondulating periodization must be even harder to plan and follow, for normal people, those who aren't coached one by one and day by day.
As I (poorly) said, I don't have any periodization at all, I just try to keep progressing week by week, simply factoring in the highs and lows. I do plan a little before the very few trips that I have along the year, but no more than one week in advance.

[Mumra]

Which is what I assumed this was-unplanned planning. Working on various elements at different times that fit into your life cycle
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth 

[Nibile]

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth 

Ahah I know, it was just a joke.
Anyway, still on the subject, I think that ondulating periodization is far from being various elements to be fitted in one's life, I tend to think that it's rather a hyper-planned thing, because you have to assess intensity and volume in that undulating progression and that must be very complicated.
With simple excercises it could be doable, for instance with deadhanging, or campusing, but with climbing it must be hell to build a schedule around that kind of progression.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Any updates on this book now people have had it for a while?

Thinking of getting myself a training book and wondering if this is currently "top of the list", or is anything better?

[BicepsMou]

Any updates on this book now people have had it for a while?

Thinking of getting myself a training book and wondering if this is currently "top of the list", or is anything better?

I've bought it in the meantime, couldn’t resist my curiosity despite the quite high price. Have worked it thru and started to apply some of the concepts in the last mesocycle.

My reaction to it is a bit divided:
I mostly like the strength training parts but the endurance part is rather poor.

About the strength part, I like that the author has tried to boil things down to the simplest one needs to know to plan and structure his or her strength training. Still I tend to feel some important information should have been covered in a bit more detail (e.g. which of the presented exercises for a given muscle group to choose for which exact purpose / training phase), but when trying to be short and concise it is always hard to find the right cut and everybody will have slightly different opinions on where the line should be drawn, so that’s OK for me.

Side note: The concept of delayed effects (or cycle effects) that e.g. gets covered in the excellent book of Guyon/Broussouloux: ‘Escalade et Performance’ does not get mentioned. However this is very important for understanding long-term effects and getting the planning right. If interested in this, there is excellent experience sharing + case study on http://thomas-ferry.fr/ . He is the trainer of e.g. Guigui Mondet and Mathilde Becerat, knows what he’s talking about and is very open in his experience sharing.

Back on topic: The endurance part is rather poor: There are drills and exercises for most of the different aspects (Aero/An/Cap/Pow), but these concepts –or similar ones- do not get mentioned and thus the choice of which kind of exercise/drill to use in which (base/quality) phase of your training does not get covered and is thus quite random. The information on this site by Abarrows&Tommy is light-years more detailed and useful in this regard.

In summary: If someone is relatively new to structured strength for climbing training and follows the advice in the book, I’m convinced the concepts will work very well. Also someone looking for useful strength training advice that is quick and easy to apply without bothering much about more detailed knowledge will be served well. The experts will miss some background information but may see it as a nice addition (e.g. recall of essentials) to other strength for climbing training resources.

NB: it may appear above that I recommend instead the book ‘Escalade et Performance’ as being top of the list. However, the concept of this book is very different (lots more details but at the same time, very easy to get lost in them…), so both books target clearly different goals and user groups.

Hope this helps

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Thanks,

It is definitely the strength ideas I am lacking, and I know this book won't give me anything I can't find on the internet

I am new to structured training though, so it sounds like it might fit the bill

I've bought it in the meantime, couldn’t resist my curiosity despite the quite high price. Have worked it thru and started to apply some of the concepts in the last mesocycle.

My reaction to it is a bit divided:
I mostly like the strength training parts but the endurance part is rather poor.

About the strength part, I like that the author has tried to boil things down to the simplest one needs to know to plan and structure his or her strength training. Still I tend to feel some important information should have been covered in a bit more detail (e.g. which of the presented exercises for a given muscle group to choose for which exact purpose / training phase), but when trying to be short and concise it is always hard to find the right cut and everybody will have slightly different opinions on where the line should be drawn, so that’s OK for me.

Side note: The concept of delayed effects (or cycle effects) that e.g. gets covered in the excellent book of Guyon/Broussouloux: ‘Escalade et Performance’ does not get mentioned. However this is very important for understanding long-term effects and getting the planning right. If interested in this, there is excellent experience sharing + case study on http://thomas-ferry.fr/ . He is the trainer of e.g. Guigui Mondet and Mathilde Becerat, knows what he’s talking about and is very open in his experience sharing.

Back on topic: The endurance part is rather poor: There are drills and exercises for most of the different aspects (Aero/An/Cap/Pow), but these concepts –or similar ones- do not get mentioned and thus the choice of which kind of exercise/drill to use in which (base/quality) phase of your training does not get covered and is thus quite random. The information on this site by Abarrows&Tommy is light-years more detailed and useful in this regard.

In summary: If someone is relatively new to structured strength for climbing training and follows the advice in the book, I’m convinced the concepts will work very well. Also someone looking for useful strength training advice that is quick and easy to apply without bothering much about more detailed knowledge will be served well. The experts will miss some background information but may see it as a nice addition (e.g. recall of essentials) to other strength for climbing training resources.

NB: it may appear above that I recommend instead the book ‘Escalade et Performance’ as being top of the list. However, the concept of this book is very different (lots more details but at the same time, very easy to get lost in them…), so both books target clearly different goals and user groups.

Hope this helps

[Three Nine]

NB: it may appear above that I recommend instead the book ‘Escalade et Performance’ as being top of the list. However, the concept of this book is very different (lots more details but at the same time, very easy to get lost in them…), so both books target clearly different goals and user groups.

Hope this helps

I guess you cant get it in English?

[BicepsMou]

I guess you cant get it in English?

I only know the French edition. Haven't seen an English one yet and don't think it's been published in other languages

[BicepsMou]

(...), and I know this book won't give me anything I can't find on the internet

That's very likely true!

However, the trouble with web-based information is always that you also get the 95% irelevant stuff along with the 5% useful one. And what this book does IMO is sorting it out for the reader and distilling it down.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

That is indeed my experience of the internet

(...), and I know this book won't give me anything I can't find on the internet

That's very likely true!

However, the trouble with web-based information is always that you also get the 95% irrelevant stuff along with the 5% useful one. And what this book does IMO is sorting it out for the reader and distilling it down.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

How have you found the stuff on "Undulating periodisation"?

I find most training plans focus on quite long levels of periodisation, with an objective of peaking for some specific event, eg competition or holiday trip

For me, I find it difficult to stick to / frustrating if I can't stick to, these long levels of periodisation, plus I have no specific event to train towards so for me a more gentle slower continuous improvement will be more useful.

Therefore, and I am not sure of the benefits, I believe some sort of weekly phasing would be more manageable for me, and looking in to it briefly that sounds like undulating periodisation

Gary

Any updates on this book now people have had it for a while?

Thinking of getting myself a training book and wondering if this is currently "top of the list", or is anything better?

I've bought it in the meantime, couldn’t resist my curiosity despite the quite high price. Have worked it thru and started to apply some of the concepts in the last mesocycle.

My reaction to it is a bit divided:
I mostly like the strength training parts but the endurance part is rather poor.

About the strength part, I like that the author has tried to boil things down to the simplest one needs to know to plan and structure his or her strength training. Still I tend to feel some important information should have been covered in a bit more detail (e.g. which of the presented exercises for a given muscle group to choose for which exact purpose / training phase), but when trying to be short and concise it is always hard to find the right cut and everybody will have slightly different opinions on where the line should be drawn, so that’s OK for me.

Side note: The concept of delayed effects (or cycle effects) that e.g. gets covered in the excellent book of Guyon/Broussouloux: ‘Escalade et Performance’ does not get mentioned. However this is very important for understanding long-term effects and getting the planning right. If interested in this, there is excellent experience sharing + case study on http://thomas-ferry.fr/ . He is the trainer of e.g. Guigui Mondet and Mathilde Becerat, knows what he’s talking about and is very open in his experience sharing.

Back on topic: The endurance part is rather poor: There are drills and exercises for most of the different aspects (Aero/An/Cap/Pow), but these concepts –or similar ones- do not get mentioned and thus the choice of which kind of exercise/drill to use in which (base/quality) phase of your training does not get covered and is thus quite random. The information on this site by Abarrows&Tommy is light-years more detailed and useful in this regard.

In summary: If someone is relatively new to structured strength for climbing training and follows the advice in the book, I’m convinced the concepts will work very well. Also someone looking for useful strength training advice that is quick and easy to apply without bothering much about more detailed knowledge will be served well. The experts will miss some background information but may see it as a nice addition (e.g. recall of essentials) to other strength for climbing training resources.

NB: it may appear above that I recommend instead the book ‘Escalade et Performance’ as being top of the list. However, the concept of this book is very different (lots more details but at the same time, very easy to get lost in them…), so both books target clearly different goals and user groups.

Hope this helps

[BicepsMou]

How have you found the stuff on "Undulating periodisation"?

I find most training plans focus on quite long levels of periodisation, with an objective of peaking for some specific event, eg competition or holiday trip

For me, I find it difficult to stick to / frustrating if I can't stick to, these long levels of periodisation, plus I have no specific event to train towards so for me a more gentle slower continuous improvement will be more useful.

Therefore, and I am not sure of the benefits, I believe some sort of weekly phasing would be more manageable for me, and looking in to it briefly that sounds like undulating periodisation

I couldn't really find a section going into the details of undulating periodization in the book or anything referring to a really complex periodization scheme.

The book is simply suggesting to organize your training into blocks, where you're setting priority goals. 6-8 weeks for strength and 4-6 weeks for endurance. After this, a tapering / recovery phase of 1-2 weeks is suggested. Alongside the main priority focus (and some secondary exercises) it is recommended to do some maintenance training for the non-priority aspects, as maintenance needs a substantially less frequent stimulus than building up a certain strength or endurance aspect.

This is following IMO the concept of non-linear periodization or block periodization as Steve Bechtel is blogging about, event if these terms aren't used in the book. The nice thing is that it's really kept simple and I guess very easy to follow.
The training script of the German DAV is following the same logic with the exact goal in mind that you mentioned, which is to assure a continuous improvement and to avoid deep lows, which is much more suitable to a skill sport like climbing with longer performance periods than the more linear periodization schemes which have deep lows and high but shorter peaks.

I wouldn't recommend very short priority slots, as you referred to weekly phasing. After quick initial gains that one can realize regardless of anything structured, the body needs a certain consistency of stimulus for a certain time period to really be able to improve on a given training aspect. You find different recommendations about the length of these periods in the literature, ususally 3-4 weeks and longer, so the rcommendations in the book may be on the longer side, but the main reasoning behind it is sound. I'd guess that most training efforts are being sabotaged by switching priorities too often, jumping on and off every new protocol picked up on the net, fearing that this new thing may be so much better than what one is currently doing and thus not giving any of these programs the necessary time to impact the body and deploy its effects. I've experienced this myself quite some time ago, wondering why progress was so slow, so guilty myself 

[StillTryingForTheTop]

ordered it, so will see what it is like when it turns up