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Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution. (Read 11935 times)

southeastkieran

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Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 10:09:09 pm
Firstly just like to apologise as I'm sure you guys read this topic a lot... But I'm new to this forum so I'd appreciate the replies. I've been bouldering indoors for about 5
Months now and have steadily progressed to V4-V6 climbs. I'm completely aware bouldering isn't about as progressing as quick as possible, and technique is something I've worked, and still work on a whole lot. Last month I was averaging 4 solid sessions a week, and kind of regret pushing my limits. I got a sharp pain in my arm, around my elbow/ lower bicep area. After talking to other people at the centre I figured this is very common in climbers. I rested for 3-4 weeks and felt I was ready to go back. My first climb was great and my endurance, for some reason, felt better than ever. However, the session after that has left me with a bit of pain which I know will get worse if I climb again.

I got recommend 'Thomas Randall's golfers elbow', which if you haven't already seen o thoroughly recommend reading. https://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/

However, the root of my pain seems to lay just under my bicep, on the inside. So I'm not sure if I can put it down to golfers elbow.

My question is basically what precautions you guys take if you've experienced this, and what you recommend. Any type of training plans? also, is this something that will become less substantial with getting my arms stronger?

Thanks in advanced. 

mrjonathanr

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#1 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 10:46:21 pm
On the internet, no one can know....but it sounds like a brachialis problem, not that uncommon in climbers, as you say.

Eccentric hammer curls might help. Or not..but I'd look into that. Dave McLeod might have something on his site. Jon Ovstrovskis has some good videos depending on your ailment...
http://919clinic.co.uk/Exercises

I would add that brachialis pain seems to be exacerbated by deep lock offs and sideways pulling with bent elbow. I certainly wouldn't advocate muddling through pain or allowing something to deteriorate in the hope that your arm will get stronger. The tendon's probably overloaded, their development is much slower than that of muscles so this is not unlikely if you are fairly new to a sport and quite enthusiastic ie your muscles have increased in strength but tendon needs more time to adapt to new load.

Hope you get it sorted Kieran. Gentle activity is often better than complete rest. Best of all is the advice of a physiotherapist  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:55:59 pm by mrjonathanr »

bigironhorse

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#2 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:02:02 pm
I would definitely recommend consulting Dave MacLeods book if you haven't already, its a really good overview of climbing injuries and it'll teach you how to prevent them! Maintaining low level exercise has always been useful for me with all types of elbow-area injury.

southeastkieran

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#3 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:05:51 pm
Thanks Jonathan. Really felt like I was ready to get back but ended up getting determined on completing a project... Never a good idea. I'll get in contact with my chiropractor tomorrow and seek some advice from him. Really appreciate the info, just done a bit of reading on brachialis injuries in climbing and it all seems to add up

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#4 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:08:48 pm
Oaksi's advice is sound too. Good luck.

k2ted

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#5 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
I've not read Dave Macleods book but his blog seems to favour regular (morning & nightly) eccentrics, like in the link below. Tried Tom Randall's exercise didn't work for me, but for others it does.

http://drjuliansaunders.com/dodgy-elbows/

I've kept to the above doing morning / evening eccentrics and it's definitely working for me, correcting something that I've had for months. I've had to really work the position for max feeling in the tendon but havent bothered icing. Try it, it may help.

Should this be moved to diets, training & injuries? Mods.....

shark

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#6 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:45:19 pm
I find running cold water from the tap or shower head before bed works best. If the pain is deep under the bicep then freeze water in a yoghurt pot or similar and use that to get at the source of pain. Sometimes I also do easy "dwarf" press ups on my knees as well though ice / cold water seems to work best for me

southeastkieran

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#7 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 08, 2016, 11:59:37 pm
Thanks k2sted, oaksi. I'll definitely check that out and get into a routine of doing daily exercises. I'm all for exercise, I'm just wondering how I should approach recovery with safely getting stronger. I'm worried that once I heal up the same thing will happen again. Maybe I'm expecting too much from my body.

Also, apologies for posting in wrong area

Andy W

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#8 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 09:35:41 am


Interesting. I have had a similar issue...pain that feels more in the bicep, but very low down. Having had both golfers and tennis elbow issues, I know its not that. I've struggled to get a diagnosis and struggled to remedy it. I tried months of eccentric curls and Saunders type stuff. I've carried on climbing and its never got worse. I avoid very deep locks whilst training. I'd bee interested to see what you come up with?




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#9 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 09:41:19 am
Complete rest is rarely helpful for chronic climbing-related elbow pain.
See a good physio to assess for asymmetry and reach a tissue-specific diagnosis.

What would be useful is if you could post your weekly training/climbing routine.
This is particularly useful here as this type of injury is commonly related to training error/overload.

Eg:

Monday: nil
T: 2 hour indoor bouldering session
W: gym (including specific exercises)
T: fingerboard dead hang sets (inc sets etc)
F; nil
Sat: full day outdoor bouldering 6a-7c
Sun: cycling 30mile



shark

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#10 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 12:34:33 pm
Looks like everyone's ignoring my water treatment   :lol:

Clearly off trend as usual


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#11 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 12:57:02 pm
I had a on/off issue with elbow aches, I think it was the brachialis muscle.
I found icing was good after a session but for me the long term solution was stretching, particularly my shoulders which were really weak and probably causing the problem. Pressups are good. I still sometimes get a bit of elbow stiffness after a hard bouldering session if I haven't been doing enough stretching.
Also avoid big locks and compression moves whilst it recovers. This is still a massive weakness for me probably related to still having weak shoulders

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#12 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 01:33:55 pm
I have had a chronic bicep ache in the past. Had it for a few years. Mine developed when I upped my climbing/training from 2 times a week to 3/4 times. I found 2 days on seemed to cause it.

I have not had issues now for about 3 years. I guess the solution for me was adjusting my training away from footless stuff and listening to my body more. I have also done regular shoulder exercises with a dynaband, which has helped.

On a separate note I seem to have sorted a LT golfers elbow issue in the last 6 months by following the advice on Tom Randall's video - I.e. Exercises with different elbow angles. I never seemed to find the stretch point he refers to, but still it seems to help doing a range of angles.

SA Chris

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#13 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 02:20:56 pm
The brachioradialis stretch in the "dodgy elbows" article above really helped me with this sort of pain.

southeastkieran

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#14 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 06:15:55 pm
Shark: thanks man, I've got some yogurt pots in the freezer as we speak, it didn't go unnoticed ;)

Andy W: so your stretching managed to almost put an end to it? Have you continued climbing as hard as you were when the pain started, or have you slowed it down because of that? I'm getting some physio on Friday so will keep this whole post updated on diagnosis, and hopefully a plan for recoup.

paulwelford: around the peak of it I was climbing 4-5 times a week for 2-3 weeks before hurting it. Every session starts with some easy warm ups followed by a climb with V4-V6 problems, then finishing on the circuit board. It's very vague, I was looking to buy a beastmaker but can imagine that type of training wouldn't be very suitable right now.

Mark20: that's the thing, it's all good and well icing for short term relief but if it's going to be a reoccurring thing I'd much rather focus on the long term strategy. Aside from the push-ups, what stretches were you finding most effective?

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Thanks again everyone, this is a community you can't beat!!


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#15 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 09, 2016, 10:48:17 pm
Shark: thanks man, I've got some yogurt pots in the freezer as we speak, it didn't go unnoticed ;)

Andy W: so your stretching managed to almost put an end to it? Have you continued climbing as hard as you were when the pain started, or have you slowed it down because of that? I'm getting some physio on Friday so will keep this whole post updated on diagnosis, and hopefully a plan for recoup.

paulwelford: around the peak of it I was climbing 4-5 times a week for 2-3 weeks before hurting it. Every session starts with some easy warm ups followed by a climb with V4-V6 problems, then finishing on the circuit board. It's very vague, I was looking to buy a beastmaker but can imagine that type of training wouldn't be very suitable right now.

Mark20: that's the thing, it's all good and well icing for short term relief but if it's going to be a reoccurring thing I'd much rather focus on the long term strategy. Aside from the push-ups, what stretches were you finding most effective?

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Thanks again everyone, this is a community you can't beat!!

The eccentric exercises I religiously did for months, did nothing but stretch my tendons, the pain unfortunately remained. I climbed as hard if not harder, with the pain which I have to add is not severe. Following this thread and reading around I'm thinking maybe the issue is my shoulders.

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#16 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 12:25:12 am

I take boiling hot baths after climbing. Does wonders for loosening up all of the no-doubt heavily scarred tendons in my arms. Seriously. Throw some epsom salts in there, put a training beta podcast on your iPhone or whatever and just chill. Then go do a few sets of rehab/prehab exercises and you are set for the night  :great:

Out of interest where abouts do you climb? Nobody on here is from the southeast! (england that is)

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#17 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 08:22:03 am
I'm based in the SE. Never climb there though.

My inner "golfers" elbow pain seems to respond to shoulder 'stability' exercises.

The biceps tendon / brachialis area pain is helped by heavy (80-90% 1RM), low reps (3-4) elbow flexion exercises in both the palms up (biceps) and thumbs up (brachoiradialis) positions.

Ice is good in the short term for both. Massage with a big lump of it.

mrjonathanr

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« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 08:36:08 am by mrjonathanr »

southeastkieran

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#19 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:02:43 am
Brachioradialis  vs  Brachialis

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=brachialis&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB590GB590&hl=en-GB&biw=1024&bih=300&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq4oje4-zKAhUM6RQKHcIpA_wQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=30FZX6mpt9SZYM%3A

Do you mean brachialis?

Seems not to like [image] link

Jonathan, not sure if that's directed at me but yes, the root of the pain comes from the brachialis but spreads and can be felt in the brachioradialis

southeastkieran

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#20 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:05:33 am

I take boiling hot baths after climbing. Does wonders for loosening up all of the no-doubt heavily scarred tendons in my arms. Seriously. Throw some epsom salts in there, put a training beta podcast on your iPhone or whatever and just chill. Then go do a few sets of rehab/prehab exercises and you are set for the night  :great:

Out of interest where abouts do you climb? Nobody on here is from the southeast! (england that is)

There's a new centre opened called Karma Climbing, can really recommend if you're local!! The outdoor climbing (sandstone) is bit hit and miss but for bouldering it's really not that bad.

southeastkieran

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#21 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:11:35 am
Shark: thanks man, I've got some yogurt pots in the freezer as we speak, it didn't go unnoticed ;)

Andy W: so your stretching managed to almost put an end to it? Have you continued climbing as hard as you were when the pain started, or have you slowed it down because of that? I'm getting some physio on Friday so will keep this whole post updated on diagnosis, and hopefully a plan for recoup.

paulwelford: around the peak of it I was climbing 4-5 times a week for 2-3 weeks before hurting it. Every session starts with some easy warm ups followed by a climb with V4-V6 problems, then finishing on the circuit board. It's very vague, I was looking to buy a beastmaker but can imagine that type of training wouldn't be very suitable right now.

Mark20: that's the thing, it's all good and well icing for short term relief but if it's going to be a reoccurring thing I'd much rather focus on the long term strategy. Aside from the push-ups, what stretches were you finding most effective?

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Thanks again everyone, this is a community you can't beat!!

The eccentric exercises I religiously did for months, did nothing but stretch my tendons, the pain unfortunately remained. I climbed as hard if not harder, with the pain which I have to add is not severe. Following this thread and reading around I'm thinking maybe the issue is my shoulders.

Interesting, my only concern the climbing through the pain is that you're almost definitely doing more harm than good and could potentially have terrible ling term effects. Saying that, so many people at my local centre climb with sore elbows, I guess it's just knowing your limits and stopping before you tear something.

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#22 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:28:57 am
Crook of the elbow, front to the elbow, 'Font' elbow pain could be conceivably related to any of Brachialis, Biceps tendon or Brachoiradialis. Sausage on here thinks it's mainly related to shoulder issues. Perhaps different things are happening in different people, explaining why one treatment doesn't help everyone.

The underlying effects of training load, climbing style, and so on shouldn't be underestimated. Dave Macleod's book is good on this.

More in this previous thread amongst several others.

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#23 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:41:09 am
Shark: thanks man, I've got some yogurt pots in the freezer as we speak, it didn't go unnoticed ;)

Andy W: so your stretching managed to almost put an end to it? Have you continued climbing as hard as you were when the pain started, or have you slowed it down because of that? I'm getting some physio on Friday so will keep this whole post updated on diagnosis, and hopefully a plan for recoup.

paulwelford: around the peak of it I was climbing 4-5 times a week for 2-3 weeks before hurting it. Every session starts with some easy warm ups followed by a climb with V4-V6 problems, then finishing on the circuit board. It's very vague, I was looking to buy a beastmaker but can imagine that type of training wouldn't be very suitable right now.

Mark20: that's the thing, it's all good and well icing for short term relief but if it's going to be a reoccurring thing I'd much rather focus on the long term strategy. Aside from the push-ups, what stretches were you finding most effective?

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Thanks again everyone, this is a community you can't beat!!

The eccentric exercises I religiously did for months, did nothing but stretch my tendons, the pain unfortunately remained. I climbed as hard if not harder, with the pain which I have to add is not severe. Following this thread and reading around I'm thinking maybe the issue is my shoulders.

Interesting, my only concern the climbing through the pain is that you're almost definitely doing more harm than good and could potentially have terrible ling term effects. Saying that, so many people at my local centre climb with sore elbows, I guess it's just knowing your limits and stopping before you tear something.

Just to qualify, the pain isn't severe generally, only if i do prolonged deep locks and to be honest if I didn't climb through a degree of pain, I'd probably never climb again. I'm 51 and have quite a few aches and pains! What are the terrible long term effects you mention?

southeastkieran

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#24 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 10:49:24 am
Shark: thanks man, I've got some yogurt pots in the freezer as we speak, it didn't go unnoticed ;)

Andy W: so your stretching managed to almost put an end to it? Have you continued climbing as hard as you were when the pain started, or have you slowed it down because of that? I'm getting some physio on Friday so will keep this whole post updated on diagnosis, and hopefully a plan for recoup.

paulwelford: around the peak of it I was climbing 4-5 times a week for 2-3 weeks before hurting it. Every session starts with some easy warm ups followed by a climb with V4-V6 problems, then finishing on the circuit board. It's very vague, I was looking to buy a beastmaker but can imagine that type of training wouldn't be very suitable right now.

Mark20: that's the thing, it's all good and well icing for short term relief but if it's going to be a reoccurring thing I'd much rather focus on the long term strategy. Aside from the push-ups, what stretches were you finding most effective?

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Thanks again everyone, this is a community you can't beat!!

The eccentric exercises I religiously did for months, did nothing but stretch my tendons, the pain unfortunately remained. I climbed as hard if not harder, with the pain which I have to add is not severe. Following this thread and reading around I'm thinking maybe the issue is my shoulders.

Interesting, my only concern the climbing through the pain is that you're almost definitely doing more harm than good and could potentially have terrible ling term effects. Saying that, so many people at my local centre climb with sore elbows, I guess it's just knowing your limits and stopping before you tear something.

Just to qualify, the pain isn't severe generally, only if i do prolonged deep locks and to be honest if I didn't climb through a degree of pain, I'd probably never climb again. I'm 51 and have quite a few aches and pains! What are the terrible long term effects you mention?

Potential long term effects which you clearly defy ;) There's a certain amount you must put up with otherwise you'd hardly be climbing, but finding the balance between that and (for me) giving myself elbow problems in the future is important. However, this probably won't cause elbow problems in the future, that's why I made this thread :)

southeastkieran

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#25 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 10:52:06 am
Crook of the elbow, front to the elbow, 'Font' elbow pain could be conceivably related to any of Brachialis, Biceps tendon or Brachoiradialis. Sausage on here thinks it's mainly related to shoulder issues. Perhaps different things are happening in different people, explaining why one treatment doesn't help everyone.

The underlying effects of training load, climbing style, and so on shouldn't be underestimated. Dave Macleod's book is good on this.

More in this previous thread amongst several others.

That's the thing, it's so common in climbers and unfortunately not always the same. I'm definitely going to take a lot at Dave Macleod's book, everyone speaks very highly of it.

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#26 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 03:32:19 pm
The book will save your life.

I climb at Karma all the time! The people there climbing 'hard' with permanently sore elbows could definitely climb harder if they took the time to actually sort their injuries out, trust me. Some of the biggest overtrainers I've seen all seem to climb there! Maybe I'll see you around  ;D

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#27 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 04:16:58 pm

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Good question. Definitely not training as often/as intensively. I have had pretty intensive trips (six days on etc) which previously would have caused a bicep flair up.  I have also done 10 bouldering comps this autumn which are brutal sessions and would definitely not have been possible 5 years ago.

I imagine if I got on a campus board or started training one armer's again it would flare up rapidly.



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#28 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 04:52:21 pm
The book will save your life.

I climb at Karma all the time! The people there climbing 'hard' with permanently sore elbows could definitely climb harder if they took the time to actually sort their injuries out, trust me. Some of the biggest overtrainers I've seen all seem to climb there! Maybe I'll see you around  ;D

Ahh no way! Small world, it's lovely centre though. Haha very true, but to be honest it's way too easy to overtrain and push yourself through the pain. I was climbing with it quite sore for a few days and they all seemed to shrug it off and say that they also have sore elbows but climb through it - kinda made me feel like I was being a big girl about it all!

southeastkieran

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#29 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 04:54:43 pm

Dave k: your solution was adjusting technique etc... But are you still climbing 2 times a week? Or are you able to climb 3/4 times like you were when it started?

Good question. Definitely not training as often/as intensively. I have had pretty intensive trips (six days on etc) which previously would have caused a bicep flair up.  I have also done 10 bouldering comps this autumn which are brutal sessions and would definitely not have been possible 5 years ago.

I imagine if I got on a campus board or started training one armer's again it would flare up rapidly.

Yeah, I recognise now that I just got a bit too enthusiastic and although it felt great at the time, I wasn't doing myself much justice. Which sucks because I was really starting to break the first barrier I came to and was improving again.

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#30 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 06:57:57 pm
kinda made me feel like I was being a big girl about it all

careful with the casual sexism there, some right-on fucker will come along and kick you in the bollocks if you're not careful

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#31 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 07:07:41 pm

kinda made me feel like I was being a big girl about it all

careful with the casual sexism there, some right-on fucker will come along and kick you in the bollocks if you're not careful

Capital C at the start of the sentence you slack fucking bastard.

southeastkieran

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#32 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 08:05:54 pm
 :jaw:
kinda made me feel like I was being a big girl about it all

careful with the casual sexism there, some right-on fucker will come along and kick you in the bollocks if you're not careful

Damn man hahhaa no sexism intended what so ever, most of the girls climb harder than me

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#33 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 10, 2016, 09:10:05 pm
same here

stupid strong females ruining my ego trips

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#34 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 01:23:40 am
I regularly get schooled by the 10-11 year old superstars that climb at White Spider that all seem to be part of the youth bouldering team or something. There actually is a girl that looks about 14 that has bigger biceps than me, WTF!

southeastkieran

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#35 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 09:22:56 am
That's why I love climbing so much, it really has no limits in terms of age, gender or your build. I'm incredibly skinny so find it very amusing when the cocky meatheads think they can just through themselves in at the deep end.

The diversity of the groups I sometimes climb with is crazy, ages between 18-60 both and female and we're climbing the same things... I can't really think of another intense sport that's like that.

duncan

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#36 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 10:11:22 am
I'm definitely going to take a lot at Dave Macleod's book, everyone speaks very highly of it.

As you'd expect from DM, the book is as much about living, climbing and training smarter as fixing injuries. It does have some good first line management ideas too.

ukb review here.

southeastkieran

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#37 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 10:38:43 am
I'm definitely going to take a lot at Dave Macleod's book, everyone speaks very highly of it.

As you'd expect from DM, the book is as much about living, climbing and training smarter as fixing injuries. It does have some good first line management ideas too.

ukb review here.

Thanks Duncan, I'll check out the review  :)

SA Chris

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#38 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 12:19:30 pm
What's Eblow anyway, is it the cocaine equivalent of e cigarettes? :)

southeastkieran

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#39 Re: Eblow/ bicep pain, the solution.
February 11, 2016, 12:47:19 pm
What's Eblow anyway, is it the cocaine equivalent of e cigarettes? :)

Hahah very good, I was just waiting for a comment like this ;)

 

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