[kingholmesy]

[quote author=Duncan campbell link=topic=26742.msg512677#msg512677 date=1454685800

so in conclusion can all you E6 crushers, without giving away too much beta so we still get the onsight, let us know which E6s aren't "too bad". Fanks
[/quote]

I am not an E6 crusher and have not even tried any of these routes, but in the South West I reckon the following would be reasonable onsight propositions:

Suicide Blonde (apparently soft-ish);
Toltec Twostep (loads of mats, or large cam then small fiddly wire);
Whoremoans (mid height gear and a bold finish, but doesn't look too hard);
Maybe Free The Spirit or Carribean Blue if you're fit?? (fixed gear apparently ok last year).

Any got any more suggestions in this part of the world?

[kingholmesy]

Also while we're on the theme of onsight-able E6s, is The Cad in the "bold but OK" category, or is it death on a stick?

I like crimpy wall climbing and don't mind run-outs, but don't want to kill myself if I fuck it up.  Bear in mind that E5 is currently top of my game when replying ....

[Mumra]

I climbed it with the bolt and it felt like E5
However I was young and stupid and didn't understand corrosion
Take what you will from that
if anything

God, this writing like oldmantwat is really annoying
i just can't
help
it

[TobyD]

I guess Souls in Pembroke is a good example of this; BITD it had some pretty good fixed kit, now the fixed kit is knackered and blocks the placement. Ive heard of two very good climbers being sandbagged onto this by Caff and having a mare... (the story goes Caff walks up it "just to get them to the top" once they get back to the floor) Ive also seen another good climber do it though he had beta from a naughty headpointer. hence despite Souls being a route I'd like to do (its on/in one of my favourite crags) its not really on my list.

People always trot this out about souls. There is a fixed bit of kit; the climbing it protects is about Uk 5b/c, but it probably wouldn't prevent you from eating beach even if it was worth clipping anymore. It is and always has been a bold but easier bit of an E6 on which the hard bit has the most bomber gear in the world. I thought it was far from being an easy E6 but it is one of my favourites.

I think I agree more with Stu and Duncan than with JB about the objective gnarl of E6; relatively few E5s have ever felt really traumatic (obviously i still get scared on them) but E6 demands the abilty to onsight 7b-7cish usually (admittedly not all of them), under pressure, while fiddling about with a load of wires. However, the feedback loop exacerbates this effect by increasing cachet, fewer ascents, less knowledge, less frequently checked fixed kit....

[T_B]

I guess Souls in Pembroke is a good example of this; BITD it had some pretty good fixed kit, now the fixed kit is knackered and blocks the placement. Ive heard of two very good climbers being sandbagged onto this by Caff and having a mare... (the story goes Caff walks up it "just to get them to the top" once they get back to the floor) Ive also seen another good climber do it though he had beta from a naughty headpointer. hence despite Souls being a route I'd like to do (its on/in one of my favourite crags) its not really on my list.

People always trot this out about souls. There is a fixed bit of kit; the climbing it protects is about Uk 5b/c, but it probably wouldn't prevent you from eating beach even if it was worth clipping anymore. It is and always has been a bold but easier bit of an E6 on which the hard bit has the most bomber gear in the world. I thought it was far from being an easy E6 but it is one of my favourites.

+ 1

It's the easiest E6 that I've done/tried in the Leap. I doubt it rates as hard for the grade. Close by it are two of the most popular soft 'E5s' in Britain, so maybe people expect it to be just a harder?!

[T_B]

I think there are so few people on-sighting trad E6 that there just isn't such a big pool of routes where there's knowledge that they get done/are clean and are 'OK'. I can think of some tough, more esoteric, E5s that I've done that aren't popular routes in any given area and that are just a bit easier than soft E6s. Get yersel tut Lakes! And well known E5s that I've avoided (Golden Mile, for example), as I expect them to be hard.

That said, I think some E6s come from that era when bolts started to appear on crags and moves got harder. So, you have routes such as Hell's Wall and Eye of the Tiger with 7c+ climbing.

One thing is at Gogarth a few of the soft E6s have now been downgraded to E5 (Shittlegruber, Blackleg), so it's harder to break into E6. In areas such as the Lakes/Wales on crags which get dirty, on-sighting is harder than possibly when they were first done. So you probably have to be an E6 leader to rock up and on-sight the Almighty.

There's no mystery to climbing E6 as far as I'm concerned. It's just hard, harder than headpointing most E8s. You have to be on E5s straight out of the blocks at the start of the season and push yourself every time you go out. You've got to get loads of routes under your belt and build up your confidence. Like breaking into any grade.

[andy popp]

I to tend to agree with Stu and Duncan. Allowing for a fuzzy boundary of hard E5s and soft E6s, E6s are clearly harder; that's why they get the higher grade. It's step change; though why it seems to be a bigger step change than some others, say E4 to E5, I'm not sure. But if we look at our own climbing records then its probably the case that step changes get progressively bigger as we near our limits. That makes intuitive sense, peak performances are bound to be rare.

But of course feedback loops play a part, as each step change gets progressively bigger there are fewer people to emulate and learn from.
In fact, E6s onsight/ground-up weren't that rare in North Wales in the 80s because there was a big community doing it.

There's no mystery to climbing E6 as far as I'm concerned. It's just hard, harder than headpointing most E8s. You have to be on E5s straight out of the blocks at the start of the season and push yourself every time you go out. You've got to get loads of routes under your belt and build up your confidence. Like breaking into any grade.

Toby hits the nail on the head here. Lots of people were on sighting E6 back in the day because tradding was what there was, it was what people did every time they went climbing.

[Fiend]

Yeah I agree with Toby Briggs there, good post.

[lagerstarfish]

There's no mystery to climbing E6 as far as I'm concerned. It's just hard, harder than headpointing most E8s. You have to be on E5s straight out of the blocks at the start of the season and push yourself every time you go out. You've got to get loads of routes under your belt and build up your confidence. Like breaking into any grade.

on grit this includes (or used to) that, when conditions are good, you just keep re-soloing (a lot) the gearless/highball/solo routes that you have already done and they feel OK because you have already done them - then you are ready for slightly harder stuff when you know you are having a good day and conditions are decent - do people still do this?

[T_B]

Yes, when I was at Uni we would solo Pebble Mill/Above and Beyond/Knock every time we went to Burbage. Similar at other venues. A mate soloed 3 x E5s and 2 x E6s on Great Slab in about 30 mins (most on sight), but he rarely led E5 'on gear'. Grit soloing is a separate discipline really.

[lagerstarfish]

Grit soloing is a separate discipline really.

but it does set you up nicely (mentally) for being ready for other stuff

[TobyD]

Yes, when I was at Uni we would solo Pebble Mill/Above and Beyond/Knock every time we went to Burbage. Similar at other venues. A mate soloed 3 x E5s and 2 x E6s on Great Slab in about 30 mins (most on sight), but he rarely led E5 'on gear'. Grit soloing is a separate discipline really.

That'll be Dave Ferguson then?

[TheTwig]

I managed to onsight Glacial Point at Fairy Cave. Absolutely shitting myself the whole time, was totally in over my head really!

[Muenchener]

Good effort.

Wipe Out at Staden was E4 5c in the guidebook when I did it, but it was pretty obvious that it wasn't really. Otherwise I wouldn't have been on it.

[Duncan campbell]

I guess Souls in Pembroke is a good example of this; BITD it had some pretty good fixed kit, now the fixed kit is knackered and blocks the placement. Ive heard of two very good climbers being sandbagged onto this by Caff and having a mare... (the story goes Caff walks up it "just to get them to the top" once they get back to the floor) Ive also seen another good climber do it though he had beta from a naughty headpointer. hence despite Souls being a route I'd like to do (its on/in one of my favourite crags) its not really on my list.

People always trot this out about souls. There is a fixed bit of kit; the climbing it protects is about Uk 5b/c, but it probably wouldn't prevent you from eating beach even if it was worth clipping anymore. It is and always has been a bold but easier bit of an E6 on which the hard bit has the most bomber gear in the world. I thought it was far from being an easy E6 but it is one of my favourites.

I think I agree more with Stu and Duncan than with JB about the objective gnarl of E6; relatively few E5s have ever felt really traumatic (obviously i still get scared on them) but E6 demands the abilty to onsight 7b-7cish usually (admittedly not all of them), under pressure, while fiddling about with a load of wires. However, the feedback loop exacerbates this effect by increasing cachet, fewer ascents, less knowledge, less frequently checked fixed kit....

Good knowledge re Souls, guess thats the other side of the knowledge feedback loop or whatever we are calling it - if someone finds it hard and scary/fails on it the aura surrounding the route gets bigger! Interesting you and T_B found it pretty ok. maybe it will go back on the list...

[Johnny Brown]

I think I agree more with Stu and Duncan than with JB about the objective gnarl of E6; relatively few E5s have ever felt really traumatic (obviously i still get scared on them)

I suppose it depends what you are expecting. My personal grade scale expectation is along these lines:
E3: should be ok
E4: should be okay, but expect minor whitey/ puzzling section
E5: expect major whitey at some point
E6: sustained whitey is basically guaranteed

If my form is bad these will all drop down a notch, if I'm going well and it's my style they might go up one. Or if not my style it I tend to think it must be soft.

[Fiend]

I think I agree more with Stu and Duncan than with JB...

 

Going back to a previous point, grit style soloing might be a different kettle of fish but for me at least it's an equally adjectivally challenging kettle of fish as leading on filed down RPs and twin ropes - well, except generally being more so.

[Johnny Brown]

Forgot the quote markup!

[TobyD]

My personal grade scale expectation is along these lines:
E3: should be ok
E4: should be okay, but expect minor whitey/ puzzling section
E5: expect major whitey at some point
E6: sustained whitey is basically guaranteed
If my form is bad these will all drop down a notch, if I'm going well and it's my style grit they might go up one. Or if not my style it I tend to think it must be soft.

I too can't remember any reasonably recent whitey action above E2; but above there anything is possible. E6 can feel easy, E3 can feel brick / scary / both of the above. Both of my closest - to - total - disaster trad experiences have been on E4s. I'm not claiming any of this means anything.