[mrjonathanr]

System, Work, Rest (from 7. Quick Reference):

AeroCap, 10+min, n/a
AnCap, 12-15 moves (30-40s), Long (2-4x work period)
AeroPow, ~30 moves (45-120s), Short (approx 1:1)
AnPow, 5-7 moves, Very short (< or equal to work period)

I must admit quite confused by this.

Power is the rate of doing work ie faster rate/shorter duration for given output= more power.

Aeropow thus seems the antithesis of power - or is it just a misnomer as a way of identifying short aerobic activity at the border with anaerobic systems?

[Muenchener]

I found this article on Repeated-Sprint Athletes: Energy Systems & Training, which seemed to me as an ignorant layman to offer a clear layman's explanation of the basic concepts. albeit not climbing specific.

Any good?

[mrjonathanr]

Yes, that's spot on, quite relevant to climbing demands, thanks.

[Lund]

I personally find this a nice simple clear explanation: http://ptexphys.utorontoeit.com/energy-metabolism/atp-and-stored-sources-of-energy/

For the TLDR summary, it goes like this:

* Muscles move by "burning" ATP.  With water, it turns into ADP and makes energy.  It's not quite like this - it's more complicated - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_contraction and go down to "sliding filament theory".  (Unless you're a nutjob, probably don't read that.) 

* Short bursts of intense energy - 10s or less - think 100m sprint: exclusively uses stored ATP (and creative phosphate to regenerate the ATP when it's used up).

* Longer bursts of energy: there's not enough ATP stored, nor creatine.  So you need to make the ATP in some other way.

* You can burn fat and protein: this is done aerobically, i.e. needs oxygen.

* You can also burn carbohydrate.  Here there are two options: aerobically, or anaerobically (without).

The difference between the two is largely the amount of available oxygen.  If the effort is intense enough, then there isn't enough oxygen and it has to be anaerobic.  If it's easy enough, then there's plenty of oxygen and it's all fine.

Anaerobic produces lots more waste products - lactic acid.  This is bad as it stops the muscles working.  (Although have I seen stuff about this not being really the case?  I can't remember.)

In terms of events, think 800m is anaerobic, ultra running = aerobic (on average).

Now, an cap and an pow - where do these come from?  I'm not entirely certain, but I think they are things that you can measure, and as such sports scientists bang on about them.  They used to bang on about lactate thresholds, blood lactic levels etc., but there are problems with these measurements.  So, they start with something they think they can measure and then try to invent ways of fucking with said measurement, and then see if by fucking with it to make it different you get better at your sport. If you do, then they write about it and tell everyone and hope to get famous/rich/laid/taller/bluer eyes/a better seat in the afterlife.

This is where we've arrived at.  :-)

[TheTwig]

I'll admit that I'm too lazy to dig much deeper than having a quick look at the wiki article on lactic acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Exercise_and_lactate but I thought the idea that lactic acid is a 'bad' thing was going out of favour? One of those causation/correlation things, e.g. when people are pumped they have tons of lactic acid in their muscles, but is it the lactic acid causing the drop in power output or just a useful side-effect? (lactic acid is recycled later for energy)

[siderunner]

RCTM has a page about "its not really lactic acid" iirc, maybe thats where you saw it Lund

[roddersm]

I don't think lactic acid in itself is the issue but the production of lactate and hydrogen as a by product of working anaerobically and using ATP.

Not sure if the science knows 100% why this causes fatigue - something to do with low PH (acidosis) reducing the ability for the muscle fibre to contract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493560/

[petejh]

Sliding filament theory explains pump. You need to be the nutjob that reads and understands it to understand how muscle contractions become unsustainable. RCTM has a basic outline of it, worth reading a few different descriptions of it until one makes sense.
Chemistry n shit 'int it.

Unresolved Questions
Is muscle contraction completely understood? Scientists are still curious about several proteins that clearly influence muscle contraction, and these proteins are interesting because they are well conserved across animal species. For example, molecules such as titin, an unusually long and "springy" protein spanning sarcomeres in vertebrates, appears to bind to actin, but it is not well understood. In addition, scientists have made many observations of muscle cells that behave in ways that do not match our current understanding of them. For example, some muscles in mollusks and arthropods generate force for long periods, a poorly understood phenomenon sometimes called "catch-tension" or force hysteresis (Hoyle 1969). Studying these and other examples of muscle changes (plasticity) are exciting avenues for biologists to explore. Ultimately, this research can help us better understand and treat neuromuscular systems and better understand the diversity of this mechanism in our natural world.

Summary
Muscle contraction provides animals with great flexibility, allowing them to move in exquisite ways. The molecular changes that result in muscle contraction have been conserved across evolution in the majority of animals. By studying sarcomeres, the basic unit controlling changes in muscle length, scientists proposed the sliding filament theory to explain the molecular mechanisms behind muscle contraction. Within the sarcomere, myosin slides along actin to contract the muscle fiber in a process that requires ATP. Scientists have also identified many of the molecules involved in regulating muscle contractions and motor behaviors, including calcium, troponin, and tropomyosin. This research helped us learn how muscles can change their shapes to produce movements.

[TheTwig]

My mind was blown the first time I saw some diagram explaining the sarcomere/actin process. Two creepy little worms bunching up and then sliding along each other lets me crimp hard. 

[Luke Owens]

Forgot to mention previously that the route at Dinbren I want to do I've actually had 10 sessions on it over the past 2 years, spaced out sessions. I did all the moves quickly but linking them proved difficult. In the last 4 sessions I would fall off about 8 moves in hang on the rope for a minute then climb to the top. It got the better of me and I sacked it off earlier this year as I didn't see any improvement and didn't know how to improve. Would probably have done it if I had stuck at it, but hitting session number 10 had some mental impact on me!

Went back tot he cave last night to try Left Wall again, got some suttle beta tweaks sussed which help make individual moves easier and the moves themselves in isolation are getting easier.

I'm having the same problem as the route at Dinbren I'd tried previously. On Left Wall I'm getting about 6 moves in and just completely power out, I used to get a similar amount of moves in on the Dinbren route and get the same powered out feeling.

Happy with some progress on it, although it would be great to do the first 6 moves and actually feel like I had enough in the tank to do the next ~10 moves to the knee bar!

[nai]

Luke, this is exactly the problem I've had and found baffling that prompted me to contact Tom for an assessment and plan after not solving it myself.  I could get pumped on easier routes but on hard routes I'd just power out and fail with forearm's seemingly still ok. 10s rest and I could go again.  Tom gave me a dose of AnCap and AeroPow (the latter from the very start so paying no heed to apparent adaption times) and 8 weeks in, while I haven't tried climbing outdoors, I can at least pull off harder moves indoors while pumped daft. Curiously I seem to be able to do this in the middle of my workout but toward the end I again fail with arms a bit podgy. Maybe that just means I'm pitching that particular workout too hard.  Obviously it might be different for you but it seems a fairly similar scenario.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers, sounds very similar! How many sessions of AnCap and AeroPow are you doing a week? I'm currently doing AnCap circuits twice a week but nothing AeroPow related.

[nai]

one AnCap session.  Started with one AeroPow which upped to two after four week.
Both AeroPow are  cleverly constructed to ensure you're climbing harder than you would simply doing reps of a route with equal rest/work times and they're both pretty exhausting too.
Hopefully Tommy will be able to help in the Q&A tonight

[Luke Owens]

Bit of an update, I've had 6 sessions on Left Wall now. Made good progress but just wondering what I should be doing with my training when I'm not at the Cave?

Session 1: Did it from the horizontal shothole start, and worked the 4 moves from the back.

Session 2 - 4: Linked from the back and kept falling off trying to latch the hold on move 6, completely powering out.

Session 5: Changed beta for the move where I'm failing, makes the move easier but the foot sequence leaving that position harder for the next move. Linked from the back and latched move 6 for the first time then powered out.

Session 6: Got to the same point as last session 4 times but powering out still.

One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.

For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.

Should I just carry on doing this and hopefully I'll just break through the barrier on the route eventually or do something different with my training?

Cheers

[nai]

Have you been doing AeroCap as Tommy suggested in the Q&A?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

[Luke Owens]

Have you been doing AeroCap as Tommy suggested in the Q&A?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

As part of my warm ups and warm downs I do. 25 mins as a warm up and 15 mins as a warm down if I have time. I'm only doing low end though.

I'm struggling to understand how an increased aerobic base will help on such a short powerful route given the short time scale I've given myself though...

[Duncan campbell]

Have you listened to Tom's Training Beta Podcast interview Luke? If not it might be worth a listen. very interesting and sort of explains (maybe only in part/simply) how all the systems work together etc... Don't quote me on this I tend to listen to these things whilst doing other things, like driving, and therefore get distracted at times.

[nai]

If you're doing that as big blocks it sounds like you're doing what Tom describes as "wasted miles". In the podcast he gives a case study of someone who wants to do a 16 move boulder and the AeroCap he's doing, from memory it's something like 3 x 5 mins at Low Intensity with 5 minutes rest between sets and 5 x 1 min High intensity with 1 or 2 mins rest between sets.  Definitely worth a listen, fits your scenario perfectly.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks guys, sounds interesting, I'll listen to it later when I get home.

[nai]

The section you need is from about 56 mins to 1:02

[jwi]

One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.

For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.

So for months you've been doing circuits that takes about 35 s to complete every gym-session and then when you go out to your project you fall off after 35 s climbing?

[Rocksteady]

I seem to recall from Barrows' PDF and/or the RCTM that if you increase your AnCap without increasing your AeroCap proportionately, you risk increasing your ability to produce lactate without the corresponding ability to flush it through your system. Result = epic pump.

I may have remembered this wrongly or not understood it correctly science-wise but have taken away the idea that AeroCap is the foundation on which everything else energy-system related rests.

[Luke Owens]

One thing I've noticed is every time I go the moves at the start feel easier and I feel stronger on them but I still power out in the same place.

For the last couple of months I've been training core in the gym, strength on a 45 degree board and ~15 move AnCap circuts at the wall.

So for months you've been doing circuits that takes about 35 s to complete every gym-session and then when you go out to your project you fall off after 35 s climbing?

I've been doing 8 x 15 moves (40secs) circuits with roughly 1:30min rest between for about 2 months now.

I fall off my project after 6 moves, I'm climbing for about 12 seconds then I power out.

[jwi]

ok, just checking. Sometimes 6 moves outside can take longer than 15 moves inside

[User deactivated]

Only seen you on it this weekend Luke, but it looked to me once you'd sorted your feet out behind the low flake you'd been on a fair while longer than 12 seconds and had been hanging the in same position a while. I always think when I stop moving my forearms give up a lot quicker than if I keep making moves, especially if it's on bad holds, which in the scheme of left wall that shot hole is one of the less positive holds.