[Luke Owens]

I've tried setting myself a training plan to get 2 routes done before our 2nd child arrives in April. Just looking for a few pointers of things to change or if anything doesn't look right.

So the little one is due on April 14th but could easily be 2 weeks early like our first so I'd like to peak in March ideally.

The 2 routes are:
Left Wall Traverse in the cave - ~15moves to a kneebar rest then ~8 easier moves to the finish.
Flowers are for the Dead at Dinbren - ~19 sustained moves to a half rest which is not worth stopping at then 5 easy-ish moves to an almost no hands rest, then ~6 easy but delicate slab moves to some jugs and the chains.

I can do all the moves on both routes it's just the linking the longer sustained sections I have a problem with.

I've started as this week being the first week and have planned out (per week):

Week 1 - 4
3 x Strength/Bouldering
2 x AeroCap
2 x AnCap
3 x Core

Week 5 & 6
3 x Strength/Bouldering
1 x AeroCap (Tagged on start/end of sessions)
2 x AeroPow
1 x AnCap
3 x Core

Week 7 & 8
2 x Strength/Bouldering (Focusing on Power and Explosive moves)
1 x AeroCap (Tagged on start/end of sessions)
1 x AeroPow
1 x AnCap
1 x AnPow
3 x Core

Week 9 & 10
2 x Strength/Bouldering (Focusing on Power and Explosive moves)
2 x AeroPow
1 x AnPow

This would take me to mid March.

Seems a lot per week but I'll be combining the systems per sessions. e.g last night at the wall I did:
25 mins AeroCap warm up
1 hour bouldering at my limit
AnCap - 15moves x 8reps (2.5mins rest between reps) powered out on move 13 of rep 7 & 8

So would that count as ticking the box for 1 of each AeroCap, AnCap and Strength on the plan?

All my core is done on my lunch in work and couldn't really do much else during this time and it free's up my wall sessions. I usually do 2 evenings at the wall in the week and 1 session (preferably outdoors) on the weekend.

Historically my main problem on routes is I power out really quickly and once pumped and faced with a hard sequence I can barely do any moves. I'll be going fine then just can't pull anymore. So my best guess, is the AnCap is going to be the most important for these short routes? Moving to an emphesis on AeroPow in the latter half as per Barrows' document?

For AnCap I've planned on: 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins rest between reps) Aiming to power our in rep 7 & 8

For AeroPow: 30 moves x 8 reps (rest = to climb time)

Is it worth keeping the AnCap consistant on each session or is i worth alternating between the above and a lower amount of moves (say 12) for 3 reps and resting 5mins and repeating x3 to allow for harder sequences?

Thanks to anyone who reads all the above (bit long winded sorry). Any changes/advice you think are worth while would be great, just want to best use my time. Would be great to get the 2 routes done!

Cheers

[T_B]

I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.

[a dense loner]

I don't know what all the catpow etc stuff is Luke but all I read is 2 sessions a wk training, I counted 4 pows. The maths doesn't work.
Remember when barrows gives advice it's from the position of a)being one of the most boring men you're ever likely to meet 2)he's a fucking everlasting student with unlimited time 3)he's one of the tallest weakest men you'll ever meet 4)see 1 5)I'd hurt my thumb if I carried on.
So if your goals were just to do 2 routes that you knew the moves on just tailor your training sessions to a similar number of moves and the same type of moves.

Caveat: Barrows has climbed 9a I've climbed 6b

[Luke Owens]

I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.

Cut it to just warm-ups/downs? I don't think I'd be dedicating sessions to it anyway.

I don't know what all the catpow etc stuff is Luke but all I read is 2 sessions a wk training, I counted 4 pows. The maths doesn't work.
Remember when barrows gives advice it's from the position of a)being one of the most boring men you're ever likely to meet 2)he's a fucking everlasting student with unlimited time 3)he's one of the tallest weakest men you'll ever meet 4)see 1 5)I'd hurt my thumb if I carried on.
So if your goals were just to do 2 routes that you knew the moves on just tailor your training sessions to a similar number of moves and the same type of moves.

Caveat: Barrows has climbed 9a I've climbed 6b

  I can train more if I want but I feel 2 sessions 1 on a Tuesday and 1 on a Thursday then a session on the weekend is enough, if I start pushing more I just start getting run down, espeically if I'm doing stuff like AnCap (I can feel it the next day after training it).

It's possible to combine energy systems in a session (AnCap training barely takes much out of a session), I'd rather do it this way than go to the wall every day, I feel having a full rest day works for me.

Yeah, basicly I want to tailor my training to the 2 routes.

For anyone in the know. How does training AeroPow help for short routes?

Cheers

[sdm]

Have you tried left wall traverse much? I did it last year, it took quite a few sessions spread over a few months and a fair bit of specific training to do it and it was the hardest problem/route I'd done at the time so my experience may be helpful.

I found it could be broken down in to a few sections:
1) The start: ~6 moves of powerful, sequency climbing
2) The cross-through: ~3 moves setting up for and moving through the cross-through
3) From the crimps, through the flake, to the rest
4) The finish

1) The starting sequence felt quite close to my bouldering limit, especially when I was first working it. I was powering out by the end of this section. If powering out on sustained sections is a problem, this could be the crux for you. Maximum strength and An Pow/medium length roof bouldering will be most useful here.

2) This was the crux for me, I dropped the cross-through move more times than I care to remember. I could do the moves easily in isolation but I was powering out by the cross-through and couldn't pull through on it.

3) Once you are through the cross-through, the holds are all decent and each move is easier than the last. You might get pumped but if you had enough left to get passed the cross-through, a bit of determination will be enough to get you through this. Aerobic endurance is a weakness of mine but I still knew I'd finish the route the first time I got through the cross-through.

4) The rest is so good, even a pure boulderer should be able to recover fully for this section so as long as you remember the sequence, this won't cause you a problem.

So the three things I think you need for this route are 1) strength for the start 2) An Pow/An Cap to get you through the cross through 3) a refined sequence to make sure you don't waste too much energy before the crux or drop the easy sections through silly mistakes. I think the aerobic sections of this route are so much easier than the anaerobic sections that I don't think the aerobic system is likely to need too much training focus.

So I would up the focus on the strength and An pow with some An Cap and reduce the focus on the aerobic side of things.

I would also consider adding in a powerful cross-through at the end of some of your An Pow/An Cap routes for maximum specificity.

[Sasquatch]

I took a gander at your posts over the last while, particularly powerclub posts and I would have to agree with everyone else.  Focus on strength and power, especially in the near term.   

I have found that strength training is one of the hardest things for many climbers to get their heads around, and especially so for route climbers.  warm-up, then try a 1-3 move sequence at your limit 4-5 times over 20-30 minutes, then another, then another, and that is your whole session.  After warming up, you may only actually do 10-15 moves the whole session.  BUT, they're high quality training rather than high quantity. 

[Paul B]

Ignoring the Dense question as to whether Energy Systems stuff is appropriate, from a brief read I'd say:

Base phase isn't nearly long enough (IMO)
Too much strength and Ancap in weeks 1-4 (an Ancap session leaves me completely toasted, there's no way that you'll get in 5 total, quality, Strength and Ancap sessions per week IMO)
There seems to be a relatively large amount of time spent crossing over between Base/Peak? AnPow seems a bit unloved?
The order of priority in your quoted session seems wrong to me (was your Aerocap actually that? It must've been very very light. Foot on laddering for 10mins, rest 10, 4 reps total for instance wouldn't feel like a warmup to me!):

Bouldering
Ancap
Aerocap

I'm sure this (the order of priorities) is listed in the Barrows text?
IF this is a large increase in training load my injury alarms would be flashing wildly. Take Care.

Caveat - I rarely try hard as I'm apparently quite lazy.

[Luke Owens]

Have you tried left wall traverse much? I did it last year, it took quite a few sessions spread over a few months and a fair bit of specific training to do it and it was the hardest problem/route I'd done at the time so my experience may be helpful.

Cheers for the breakdown, I've been on it a few times but never give it my full attention. I've done it from 1 move into the Horizontal Shothole start. Then focused on that first move of that start last time I was there.

I found myself powering out on the section after the kneebar rest last time I was there, maybe not spending long enough in the rest.

Good idea adding a cross through style move on the circuits, that move must be tricky from the start.

I have found that strength training is one of the hardest things for many climbers to get their heads around, and especially so for route climbers.  warm-up, then try a 1-3 move sequence at your limit 4-5 times over 20-30 minutes, then another, then another, and that is your whole session.  After warming up, you may only actually do 10-15 moves the whole session.  BUT, they're high quality training rather than high quantity. 

I spent most of my sessions over the last couple of months at the wall doing this sort of thing on the 20' and 45' degree board. I was feeling stronger every session which was good, but in doing so was ignoring anything other than short hard sequences. Would you say it's not worth doing this with AnCap tagged onto the end of the session?

Base phase isn't nearly long enough (IMO)
Too much strength and Ancap in weeks 1-4 (an Ancap session leaves me completely toasted, there's no way that you'll get in 5 total, quality, Strength and Ancap sessions per week IMO)

After my first time trying AnCap circuits I did feel blasted to be honest. My original plan was to do boulder and tag AnCap on the end 2 evenings in the week then boulder on the weekend giving 3 strength and 2 AnCap workouts, I couldn't do that volume dedicating sessions to each. Would you recommed dedicating sessions at a reduced volume instead (e.g 2 full sessions on strength and one on AnCap)?

There seems to be a relatively large amount of time spent crossing over between Base/Peak? AnPow seems a bit unloved?

Would it be better to scrap the crossover and just switch from Base to Peak? So start AnPow from week 5?

The order of priority in your quoted session seems wrong to me (was your Aerocap actually that? It must've been very very light. Foot on laddering for 10mins, rest 10, 4 reps total for instance wouldn't feel like a warmup to me!):

Bouldering
Ancap
Aerocap

I'm sure this (the order of priorities) is listed in the Barrows text?

My AeroCap is really low end, basicly traversing easy ground for ~25 mins as a warm up.

[T_B]

I'd cut the aero down and focus more on finger strength, campussing, longer boulders and AnCap. You'll need Anaerobic energy for your goals and it sounds like your weakness is power.

Cut it to just warm-ups/downs? I don't think I'd be dedicating sessions to it anyway.

OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated . It strikes me you have to do a lot of it over a long base period. What's the point when you're boulders/routes are basically sprints? I get the bit about lactate and having to do some AeroCap. But, I personally don't think Left Wall Trav really requires PE. Ultimately it will be your ability to bear down sufficiently to do the moves into the knee bar. And that will come down to strength and power, not fitness. I've recently found that I perform best on intense 20 - 30 move circuits after a period of fingerboarding. The old addage of being stronger on the moves and therefore being able to link more before you power out and fall off. Being fit is of no use if you're not strong enough to do the moves.

[Duncan campbell]

When I was trying LW (spread over my latter years in NW) I nearly did it one summer but fluffed the end. My advice is to use the end as part of your warm up so you totally autopilot it!

You seem to be at a similar/higher level of ability than me when i did it so If I were you I'd siege the crap out of it, train strength in the week and you'll do it.

My reasoning for this is a) its not that long b) its quite powerful (or was for me) and c) its not just basic pulling

If you get strong, learn it really well and climb it quickly and precisely I reckon it would be in the bag for you! you wont get particularly pumped or certainly not aerobic way. obviously also milk that kneebar to death!!!

I also experienced what T_B says above recently on the works circuit board - early last year when I was training endurance loads i couldnt touch this 7b circuit and the one "rest" slopey jug in the middle made me more pumped. I bouldered a load this autumn and then one evening had a circuit board session as it was really busy and managed to do the circuit 3 times and could stop, and take a few seconds to catch my breath and chalk on the slopey jug!

[Wood FT]

To further back up TB's point you also did a bunch of finger boarding when you broke your heel and came back much stronger.

[dave]

Although I know nothing about training I will say that anecdotally any long problems I've ever done has been by getting strong enough to make the moves easier, not training endurance. Added bonus that it isn't as boring or longwinded as stamina training.

[Paul B]

OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated .

As I said above, I'm not commenting on whether this type of training is relevant to Luke, nor bouldering as whole (I've never spent any time trying to look at the Binney/Barrows stuff as a boulderer and thus I'm simply not sure). Barrows does point out that most of the routes he's interested in are Euro-style rather than the hard, Old School bouldery type routes that may relate to this thread better. For me I want routes to feel like routes (preferably long and continuous) and boulder problems to feel like that (i.e. short and hard). Binney does present the ideas both for routes and boulderers.

Anecdotally, for routes, AeroCap has helped me massively (both home and abroad); having been in Sheffield for the past decade and spent far (far) too much time on boards I've employed the "stronger than the moves" mentality with reasonable success on short Peak stuff but I do think it's limiting in the long run; are you working efficiently doing this (these days I'd say not, in the past I may have disagreed)? It has allowed me to rest in positions that I wouldn't have usually deemed appropriate and to recover a huge amount at actual rests, this made extensions to various things that I picked off this year a lot more feasible (it's also a great feeling to arrive at a jug completely boxed and then just shake it out back to normal).

With respect to the above I read an interesting Andrew Andrew Bisharat article where he'd paid for a coaching session which involved movement coaching, followed by doing the same move after gaining a bit of a pump.  It's here, skip to "Beating the Crimp and Pull". I found it interesting and it also rang worryingly true; some things can't simply be improved by getting stronger (something my younger self failed to understand).

It (AeroCap) does require a fair amount of time and in my current situation (with a relatively high amount of time spent getting to a wall) I'll have to look at if AeroCap work is efficient use of my time. Low-end, high time, will likely fail the test.

On a side note I intend to re-read this whilst thinking strongly about my priorities:
https://www.trainingbeta.com/hierarchy-training-steve-bechtel/

After my first time trying AnCap circuits I did feel blasted to be honest. My original plan was to do boulder and tag AnCap on the end 2 evenings in the week then boulder on the weekend giving 3 strength and 2 AnCap workouts, I couldn't do that volume dedicating sessions to each. Would you recommend dedicating sessions at a reduced volume instead (e.g 2 full sessions on strength and one on AnCap

Luke, it's still sounding like a lot but if you post it as MTWTFSS and what you'd do in each session (in order) it may be easier for me to get my head around it; again, it seems like a big ask if I'm understanding correctly. I don't think you (or certainly I) can mix high quality strength sessions and Ancap as one; the latter would be compromised if the first is done correctly (I may be wrong here?).

[Doylo]

I'm with TB. Flowers and Left Wall are usually conquered by strength rather than fitness being extended boulders problems (to the rests).

[Eddies]

Just my opinion but id do something like the following:

Monday: Wall session - Warm up then Hard bouldering for 1.5hrs. Finish with feet on campus ladders to failure x 3 sets. Aiming for 2min of laddering per set. 5min rests between sets.
Tue: 1hr of Core & Stretching
Wed: Light session of some kind (HIIT or cardio if you want to loose weight) or just Rest
Thursday: The same as Monday
Friday: The same as Wednesday
Saturday: Climb outside or mileage session inside.
Sunday: The same as Tuesday

I don't think you should need do any specific fitness / AeroCap to do your goal probs, just get stronger and do plenty of foot on campusing (which I think will translate really effectively to LWT)

[Paul B]

I don't think you should need do any specific fitness / AeroCap to do your goal probs, just get stronger and do plenty of foot on campusing (which I think will translate really effectively to LWT)

As you described, that is (high-end) Aerocap (albeit with a little variation in the work:rest), non? With puntering around at very low intensity being either very low end AeroCap or ARC...

[Eddies]

So now we have high end and low end AeroCap!?

I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems but I was on the understanding that 2mins of foot on campusing was An-Cap rather them AeroCap?

Either way Luke, 3 x 2mins max of foot on campusing (adjust hold size to suit time) a few times a week for a few months will see you along LWT no meither

[Paul B]

I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems

Ditto (not least because I need to do some work); I wish my understanding was clearer.

So now we have high end and low end AeroCap!?

As far as I've understood it this has always been the case, sometimes referred to as ARC, sometimes capillarisation (all a bit blurred). In the Barrows text it's mentioned a few times (e.g 5.1 Aerobic Capacity and Capillarisation).

Either way Luke, 3 x 2mins max of foot on campusing (adjust hold size to suit time) a few times a week for a few months will see you along LWT no meither

You're right (more so than me) actually with your ratios (I'm getting befuddled, sorry):

System, Work, Rest (from 7. Quick Reference):

AeroCap, 10+min, n/a
AnCap, 12-15 moves (30-40s), Long (2-4x work period)
AeroPow, ~30 moves (45-120s), Short (approx 1:1)
AnPow, 5-7 moves, Very short (< or equal to work period)

I've seen a lot of foot on campussing being used under the guise of AeroCap with 10 mins on (foot on campussing) followed by a similar amount of rest, repeat 4 times total.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers everyone plenty to think about; they are basicly short boudery style routes but I think having a bit of aerobic fitness will help as well.

I know a few people who have just got massively stronger (short bouldering) and ignored any kind of fitness training. They still can't climb any harder on sport. They find moves easier but linking them still proves hard to them.

I'm pretty sure foot-on campusing is AeroPow? If you look at the work time/moves it's going to be around the 2 minute mark ~30 moves. Too long for AnCap?

I was going to start the Foot-on stuff 6 weeks before the end as the adaption time for AeroPow is shorter than AnCap.

[T_B]

OK, I admit I'm an AeroCap skeptic who thinks fitness is overrated .

Anecdotally, for routes, AeroCap has helped me massively (both home and abroad); having been in Sheffield for the past decade and spent far (far) too much time on boards I've employed the "stronger than the moves" mentality with reasonable success on short Peak stuff but I do think it's limiting in the long run; are you working efficiently doing this (these days I'd say not, in the past I may have disagreed)? It has allowed me to rest in positions that I wouldn't have usually deemed appropriate and to recover a huge amount at actual rests, this made extensions to various things that I picked off this year a lot more feasible (it's also a great feeling to arrive at a jug completely boxed and then just shake it out back to normal).

With respect to the above I read an interesting Andrew Andrew Bisharat article where he'd paid for a coaching session which involved movement coaching, followed by doing the same move after gaining a bit of a pump.  It's here, skip to "Beating the Crimp and Pull". I found it interesting and it also rang worryingly true; some things can't simply be improved by getting stronger (something my younger self failed to understand).

You missed the emoji Paul 

I can't really argue against any of that having not completed a sustained period of AeroCap training (I tried it in 2014, but I think I was working in what Randall calls the 'middle zone' / "the wasted miles"). I've been fit like that in the past, but just from climbing a lot. I was definitely weak when I was really fit.

In more recent years I've managed to 'sprint between rests' on 30m pitches using what I understand to be Anaerobic endurance rather than aero by not getting pumped, due to being (relatively) strong on the moves (my best anecdote is redpointing Zoolook with no 'fitness', though I could rest below the little roof due to being tall). This can work effectively for redpointing - with on-sighting you need to be properly 'fit', or get lucky. Hence I'm a bit of a Aero skeptic, especially for UK redpointing, where I suspect a lot of people would be best focussing on strength and how to climb quickly and efficiently. But we're all different and tend to like to play to our strengths.

[T_B]

I know a few people who have just got massively stronger (short bouldering) and ignored any kind of fitness training. They still can't climb any harder on sport. They find moves easier but linking them still proves hard to them.

Yes, if you just do short boulders you power out very quickly. It's that hitting a wall feeling where you simply can't do another move. That's not the same as AnCap where, as I understand it, you can bear down for up to approx a minute. Doing short, intense boulder circuits translates well into short UK style bouldery routes (and stuff in the Cave).

[Paul B]

I'm pretty sure foot-on campusing is AeroPow? If you look at the work time/moves it's going to be around the 2 minute mark ~30 moves. Too long for AnCap?

It's not really the exercise per se its the work:rest relationship that dictates which system is targeted...I think of Ancap on a campus board as laddering 1-3-5-7-9-7-5-3-1-3-5-7-9 ish, feeling like I don't get anywhere near enough rest and then feeling utterly battered at the end of a session!

Yes, if you just do short boulders you power out very quickly. It's that hitting a wall feeling where you simply can't do another move. That's not the same as AnCap where, as I understand it, you can bear down for up to approx a minute. Doing short, intense boulder circuits translates well into short UK style bouldery routes (and stuff in the Cave).

  back at you...

Again, a recent training beta interview goes through this quite well (was it Bechtel, or Peters, or Randall?), he (it was definitely a he) talks about an example of each energy system being lacking; it's worth a listen whilst you do something else.

[Schnell]

Again, a recent training beta interview goes through this quite well (was it Bechtel, or Peters, or Randall?), he (it was definitely a he) talks about an example of each energy system being lacking; it's worth a listen whilst you do something else.

I think this was the Will Anglin one actually, or at least that was one where Neely specifically asked him about how to tell when an energy system is failing, though Randall definitely covered relevant ground too. (Also just noticed two new TB podcasts with Dave Mc and someone else I don't know, more training geekery to listen to )

[nai]

In his interview Tom gives a case study that may be relevant, someone trying to do a long boulder, the Aero work he's been scheduled and why.  Starts around 50:30 I think but there might be some relevant stuff just before that.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks for all the responses it seems AnCap, AnPow and strength/bouldering will be most important for these routes.

Is it worth holding off on the AnPow until 6 weeks until the end as per the adaption time?

Also, is doing AnCap twice a week OK?

This week which is week 1 for me I've done

M: Core
T: Lunch: Core, Eve: Wall - 25mins ARC warm-up, 1.5hrs max bouldering. AnCap - 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins between reps)
W: Rest
T: Lunch: Core, Eve: Wall - 25mins ARC warm-up, 1.5hrs max bouldering. AnCap - 15 moves x 8 reps (2.5mins between reps)
F: Rest
S: Going to head to the cave to work on LWT
S: Rest

6 weeks from the end I'll add in AnPow and drop to 1 sesh or completely drop AnCap?

Is AeroPow to be completely neglected as I know Alex's document highlights this as being quite important regardless of route length?

Cheers