[Will Hunt]

I'm interested in gathering a consensus on the actual grade of a number of problems in Yorkshire that have slipped into the new guides at grades that are some way out. I don't just mean the odd soft thing or sandbag, moreover the things that are commonly regarded as being 2 grades or more off. If we can gather a consensus here then I can ask the UKC crag moderators to amend the grades and then the corrections might propogate into the next guides.

Karjala 7A+ - 6B+ or 6C

Count Duckula 7A+ - 6A+?

McNab Sit 7C - 7B or soft 7B+

Hot Dog Fromage 7C+ - 7B/+? I think the C+ is still knocking around from when it was first done without the heel. It seems more commonly done with the heel now.


I think there are a few more out there which I can't remember of at the moment.

[Footwork]

Good thread. A bit  but I'll add:

From Brimham:
- Ripple Effect (7C) felt 7B or soft 7B+
- Titfield Thunderbolt SS (7C) also felt 7B or very soft 7B+
- Flake Ache (7A+) 7A at most and easier than Black Dog arete
- Longbow (7A+) 6C or 6C+
- The Anchor & LH (7A+) soft 7A

[andy_e]

Hot Dog Fromage is 8A. Starting from undercuts just right of DWR and reaching out is about 7B. Starting Hot Dog Fromage properly from the slots to the roof sidepull but using a heel around DBS is 7B+.

Instead of collecting consensus on here then reporting it to UKC, encourage people to continue populating the slowly growing peak bouldering database.

[slackline]

If we can gather a consensus here then I can ask the UKC crag moderators to amend the grades and then the corrections might propogate into the next guides.

peakbouldering.info now includes Yorkshire (since around the time yorkshiregrit.com disappeared) so could also serve as a place for people to record their opinions and for future guide-book writers to consult. 

[moose]

Karjala 7A+ - 6B+ or 6C

crikey... that's one hell of a mis-grade.... [looks outside, gets car-keys, blow-torch, and umbrella]

Re the Ripple Effect, is that mis-graded or is the disparity due to there being two different starts? I was trying from hands at the back, under the left-hand arete.  I gave up due to skin loss but it felt like a tough 7b (subjectively near 7b+ but in my total anti-style).  But it could be started along the lip, from the far right-hand-side.  Is that more like the original grade, or doesn't it make much difference?

[GCW]

One of the problems with Brimham is that things tend to get easier once scrittle cleans up, it's almost inevitable.

[andy_e]

Luke, that's Green Roof starting under the left arete. This is probably 7B. Ripple Effect starts on a jug rail out right, then does a few extra moves into the arete/prow. Probably around 7B+.

As GCW says, and especially with Brimham, grades given for the FA often drop after traffic. Longbow is a good example, it was a terrifying rollfest when we first did it, but now it's settled down a lot, it feels a bit easier.

[GCW]

And equally, the Grouch was a right old tussle with scrittle but has now settled a couple of grades lower.

[moose]

Cheers - that explains it.

Agree re scrittle at Brimham - I did both the Grouch and Longbow right after the FAs and they were both very tenuous.  Did the Grouch a year or two later, and it felt so much more positive.  Topping out Pinky and the flake finish version of the traverse is pretty dependent on whether anyone's given them a clean lately.  There are a few problems up there that I bottled out of years ago and am tempted to revisit in case they are now a little more secure e.g. that big roof behind the cottage, opposite Tender Homecomings (a bigger mat would be useful for that too!). 

That said, it all seems a bit academic given the wetness of this winter.......

[Will Hunt]

One of the problems with Brimham is that things tend to get easier once scrittle cleans up, it's almost inevitable.

Agreed. This still needs sorting out though.

For Longbow I'd give 6C.

McNab has long been regarded as 7A+ by many I think. Is that one a definite?

I wouldn't go as far as to say the Anchor was soft 7A. I remember it as quite a fight, but then it is easier for the short 

Haven't done Ripple Effect and now can't remember what the difference is between those two starts. As with the various HDF starts we need to be able to record what the difference is between the various starts and eliminates so people know what's what. More than happy to put this on PB.info also.

[andy_e]

If you're talking about Take a Bow, I'd wonder how many ascents that's had too. It still looks quite dirty, and the bottom is fragile, but I wonder if the top holds have seen much traffic? It's an amazing problem, well worthy of the time put in to clean it!

Will, if you actually looked at PB you'd see it's already been done.

[andyd]

Will, if you actually looked at PB you'd see it's already been done.

Shit the bed Will. How dare you comment before referring to Andy's go-to source of info?

Nobody's mentioned Take a bow have they? I'd agree that it's not had much traffic as it's rarely dry...

[andy_e]

Yes, moose referred to it in his post.

Given that two people mentioned it prior to his reply, and I posted it yesterday on another thread, I was surprised that Will hadn't already looked at it.

[Will Hunt]

I knew there was another one out there!
Trust 7B - 7A?

Good arrows on the different variations already being put on PB. Missed that.

[andy_e]

Trust is an odd one. Not 7A, certainly feels 7B until you do it.

[mrjonathanr]

Reading this thread from the perspective of the Peak, in view of the range of downgrades suggested surely the only sensible action would be to downgrade Yorkshire by 2 font grades?

[Will Hunt]

Silver Trout (sans block) also seems to be graded for some inexplicable eliminate where you don't toe hook on the arête. 6C for the normal toe hook version and 7B for the blinkers version?

Bird Flu 7B - 6C? The 7B refers I think to the original sequence which, judging from which holds have been cleaned, climbed the arête much more face on. 6C for the unique and probably more enjoyable layback step through sequence

[andyd]

Reading this thread from the perspective of the Peak, in view of the range of downgrades suggested surely the only sensible action would be to downgrade Yorkshire by 2 font grades?

Nope, undergrading is an issue in the new guide to.

[Will Hunt]

Reading this thread from the perspective of the Peak, in view of the range of downgrades suggested surely the only sensible action would be to downgrade Yorkshire by 2 font grades?

Nope, undergrading is an issue in the new guide to.

Let's be having them.

[Will Hunt]

The Sheriff 7B+ - 7A?
There is an eliminate version at 7B+which doesn't use the right arête for hands or feet, however the none eliminate version is still getting described as 7B+ which is miles of the mark. It's a shame as its such a fantastic problem but it doesn't get the attention from those who would get the most out of it since it's so wildly misgraded.

[36chambers]

Tantric traverse: felt closer to 7a+ than 7b+, unless I started in the wrong place?

Parrapper the rapper: given 7b, I thought 7a.

All IMHO.

[Stabbsy]

Horses for courses? I can think of plenty of problems I find straightforward and plenty I find tough at the grade, but I'm 6'3". Grades are just an indicator and aren't going to work for everyone. As an example, Crimpy Roof at Hare Heads is about 7A for me, but that doesn't mean I think it's actually 7A. If they're out by 1 or 2, they could still be right for most people.

3 problems all at 7B in the new guide within 50m of each other at Hare Heads (Crimpy Roof, Claret and Taggart). Crimpy Roof feels straightforward (easier than DWR/DBS for me), Taggart feels about 7A+ and Claret I can't get near. Does that mean they should all be regraded or do I just need to round off my strengths/technique and get better at certain stuff?

There's also a bit of a problem with some of these downgrades that needs some historical perspective - someone like Webbo could probably provide far better insight than me. Often the grades came from early ascents where there were rules or holds hadn't been cleaned or hadn't settled. The holds have settled but the grades haven't been adjusted.

On the subject of rules...

Count Duckula 7A+ - 6A+?

Do you really think someone like Ben Meeks got the grade of Count Duckula wrong by 6 grades? If it feels easy, start lower or miss some holds out.

As a further example, Sirpicco/Serpico at Brimham (right of Pommel) gets graded 7B in the new guide, described with a foot-jam. It's maybe about 7A/+ with the foot-jam and who knows what grade without. Originally done without the foot-jam and (I think) starting from matching the sloper rail, not the low break. Way harder like this and might be 7B but I can't touch it. Silver Trout and the traverse into Morrell's Wall at Almscliff are other examples where the grades were for eliminates but the rules have been lost. There's plenty of other examples and I'm probably only aware of a small proportion of them.

That said, there's some I agree with :-

- Longbow 6C
- Ripple Effect 7B (I think Dave's 7C is a slightly contrived extended start, rather than being overgraded)
- Flake Ache 6C+/7A (although method/conditions dependent and still harder than Black Dog, I imagine it's piss if you can jam the break!)

And some under grading thoughts from recent experience (purely my opinion, I'm not suggesting upgrades) :-

- Man with the Golden Bun 6C+ (need to go back, might just have been bad conditions)
- Triangular Roof 6C+ (let me know if you find any holds!)
- Pinky 7A+ (desperate at 7A, still desperate at 7A+)

I think with some of the Yorkshire venues, the knowledge hasn't been shared quite so extensively as it has in the Peak - maybe because there's less climbers. Caley and Almscliff are generally good, but move away to Brimham and some of less populated venues and there's inconsistency waiting to be found. As a regular contributor to yorkshiregrit.com, I should probably start adding some knowledge to Peak Bouldering. Maybe that should be my New Year's Resolution...

[andyd]

Every grade query, including my own, seems to be nonsense. Horses for courses indeed. Part of climbing is about measuring yourself. Agreeing on such amendments to a recent guide, which follows other detailed attempts seems impossible doesn't it?
All grades are debatable. I'd like to submit every problem I've ever done

[tomtom]

Grade and comment as to how you feel on peakbouldering.info and it all gets taken into account...

It is a real shame the yorkshiregrit website info and comments could not be transferred over - but such is life...

[webbo]

As far as I understand the Yorkshire grading system it works on if you find it easier than graded. Then you've cheated either by using the wrong holds, squeance or you are too tall, short or strong and in the worst case you could be from Lancashire.
You should always be prepared as you top out on a problem, to hear a voice in a Yorkshie accent say " well if you're gonna do it that way"