[James Malloch]

Now that the long nights are upon us and I can't get to the wall as much I think it's about time I try and force myself to use the fingerboard in our house.

The main problem with this is that I'm shit on it so lack motivation to use it.

I can boulder around 7A and can climb around 7b sport but if I have recently tried to get through the easiest beastmaker 1000 workout (repeaters) on their app I have to give up really quickly. I start sliding off the holds and feel terribly weak. I'm keen to improve to try and get a bit of strength that seems to be lacking...

So, does anyone have any advice on trying to address this? Try to take weight off somehow and gradually reduce it? Try something other than repeaters? Anything else?

I've never really used them before and I know it will be different for everyone but some basic advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

[B0405413]

I would recommend max hangs if you are looking to gain pure finger strength. I also think they are a lot less awful while you are doing them because you get to rest much more, and you have plenty of time to chalk up between hangs meaning that there is less chance of your fingers slipping off which could give you an injury (liquid chalk is one way of addressing this but I find it makes the friction even worse for me). A weight belt is a good investment if you choose to do dead hangs, but start steadily and build up over a few weeks before launching right in.
You can do max hangs straight after the warm up before a climbing session, at home before you go out climbing or even on rest days (depending on how fucked you're feeling).
It's important to avoid swinging as much as possible and to align yourself to where you are gripping so that all you need to do is lift your legs to begin the hang, and drop your legs to end the hang.
Good Luck.

[tomtom]

Hi James - I Boulder in the mid 7s and can get nowhere near the BM warm up in their app :D

I use their structure 6 reps of 7 on 3 secs off..
2 min break
6 reps of 7 on 3 off
2 min break
6 reps of 7 on 3 off
10 min break - repeat the above (normally 3 sets in total).

I start on the big jugs and slots to get warmed up - then progress to the smaller crimp and so on. So I start easy then onto something I can do - but is a bit hard. As you do it more often you just move to harder things etc (smaller edges, front two/back two)... I do nothing one handed or weighted... I get powered out by the crimps and that's enough for me for now. I also try and half crimp everything.

[tomtom]

Ah - also always with bent arms (hat takes a bit of training too) and shoulders engaged (pull shoulders together and head forwards..)

[abarro81]

You can do max hangs straight after the warm up ...even on rest days (depending on how fucked you're feeling).

Can you fuck.

OP: Making things easier can be done by decreasing weight, using more fingers, using bigger holds, reducing hang times or increasing rest times. Being shit should give you motivation - it's an obvious weakness and thus should reap gains.

[nai]

Setting up a pulley would be the obvious way of reducing weight, easily done with a cheap pullup bar and some old bits of hardware if the board is mounted over a doorway.  Some folk stand on bathroom scales but never tried that myself.

Which protocol you choose depends what you're training for - if it's routes then Repeaters might be best, if it's bouldering then you could try max hangs or repeaters with less reps, I've had good gains from mixing up 4 & 3 reps with max hangs.

I start sliding off the holds

Worth noting that temperature and humidity can have a massive bearing on what you can hold rep after rep.  A fan is a good investment (£15 or so for a stand fan off ebay) and if you can open windows and get the area as cool as possible.

[B0405413]

abarrows: I sometimes wonder why I ever post on climbing forums when this is the type of reply you get. I recall reading in 9 out of 10 climbers that fingerboarding can be done on climbing days straight after the warm up or on rest days. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no need to be a dick.

[bendavison]

To be fair to abarrow, doing max hangs on a rest day is whack. If you want my reasoning then:
1. Max hangs are not restful! They take a lot out of me - I don't feel tired I guess, but if I try to boulder after I notice it (unless I only do a couple, in which case I just feel recruited).
2. It wouldn't be max on a rest day because I'm normally pretty tired on rest days. Hence the need to rest.

To the OP: I'd recommend trying to reduce the hang times e.g. 5 on 5 off for 5 hangs, rather than faff around with removing weight which is often a ball ache on a home setup.


Sent from the place where beasts are made, using will power

[abarro81]

Indeed, if you need to rest then take a rest day. If you're tired then max hangs won't be productive and won't leave you recovered for the next day. If you don't need to rest then it's not a rest day, so train as desired. If max hangs were a rest day then we'd all train 7 days per week.

I can't be bothered to check 9/10 but I very much doubt Dave Mac advocated training on rest days

[abarro81]

P.ss sorry for the terse replies. Too much work and injury makes Alex an irritable mo fo. For someone new to fingerboards there's no way that hangs sessions are a rest day.

[B0405413]

No worries! Yeah it does seem logical that rest days wouldn't be the ideal time for max hangs, probably read it wrong. I'll re-consult 9/10.

[Sasquatch]

As Nai mentioned, it may depend a little bit on what you're traing towards, and what's your weakness.

I think starting off with something like the RCTM intermediate program(see the ancap on a FB Thread) for 2 workouts a week for 4-6 weeks is a good bet.  Get a timer like the seconds app that can be programmed for the full workout, and the just turn the brain off and follow directions.  After you do a cycle of repeaters, you should be good to progress to max hangs.  I think starting off with repeaters helps you learn and dial in better form as you're doing so many more hangs per workout.  Really focus on the form though. 

A note of the "rest" issue w/ fingerboarding.  The rest required is different for everyone depending on your ability to actually push to your max.  Depending on whether you at at you nuerological or physical max makes a differene and someone new to FBing will generally hit their nuerological max first.  This is something you MAY be able to do on consecutive days, but will heavily depend on other factors.  Your training capacity also makes a huge difference.  Are you doing a program that does multiple days on, followed by a longer resting period? There is no one answer, so everything has to be put into context. 

Which is why this was responded to in that way. 

You can do max hangs straight after the warm up before a climbing session, at home before you go out climbing or even on rest days (depending on how fucked you're feeling).

If you're doing it on a rest day, its no longer a rest day, and if you're feeling anything at all, it's not really max hangs any longer.

[PipeSmoke]

Personally, to break in a hold I have trouble doing deadhangs on I do uneven hangs using a slightly better hold with the other hand.

Use the beastmaker template (7 seconds on 3 seconds off, 6 reps) but tailor the holds to ones you have an easier time of holding, maybe copy the routine until you find it getting too hard and then move back to bigger holds, say the jugs, so you can finish the set, and eventually you will be able to complete the sets without using easier holds. If you are completely new to fingerboarding, you should find gains happen pretty quickly initially as well

[Murph]

Hi James, 

I've been looking into what to do with my BM1000 the next few months with limited time to climb and came across this neat quote from Steve Bechtel: "fatigue has no place in strength training". I wish I had come across that before!

My experience of using the BM and the app earlier this year was that as someone who boulders 6C/7A it was great fun if you wanted to get pumped out of your box on the first set of the 5A circuit, shut down in the second set and never even attempt the third. But not to be deterred I recorded my routines religiously and tried really hard.

The first time I managed to get 42/42 on the first set of the 5A circuit I switched to the 5B circuit but changed the timings to 6" on, 4" off. By the time I managed 42/42 on that exercise I was a lot stronger and attempting 7B in the real world. 

But I wouldn't recommend that approach....intention this time is more like Sasquatch recommends....to do a couple of weeks of 5B/5C repeaters as then to get used to it again then try some actual strength training on it by doing 4-10 second max hangs (whether that's two hands with weight, 1 hand, whatever), 2 minute rest, repeat 20 times. And record it.

That, and get my BMI down to 20 (from 22.5) and I reckon I should be looking at 7C. Thoughts welcome from the forum if anyone has any advice to offer on this plan?

[bendavison]

Ha, the beastmaker grades really are nuts!

Murph: I would suggest sacking off the third set of repeaters. Also, you could try and experiment with the grip types in the 5B/5C repeaters - you wanna aim to fail in the last hang of each minute (at least in the second set anyway).

20 max hangs sounds like a lot. And, everyone is different, but I found when doing max hangs, that (a bit counter-intuitively) really short hangs (4 seconds) weren't that beneficial.

+1 to what Sasquatch said.

Oh and I think it's normal to get really pumped when you first start doing repeaters.


Sent from the place where beasts are made, using will power

[Murph]

Thanks, I hear you on the 4 seconds and 20 hangs thing. Will read up. I was thinking though that it'd be something I could hang for at least 4 and if I get to 10 then it's too easy - needs a harder hold. I'm new to strength-specific training tho and there are many slightly different programmes out there...which to choose 

And yes, I never do the third set of repeaters. Can't even hold jugs by that point if following the programme timings!

Nice one.

[Murph]

Durrr....just seen the anaerobic capacity thread. There was me thinking that had something to do with stamina, but it's code for strength. Apologies for my slowness....

[bendavison]

I'm new to strength-specific training tho and there are many slightly different programmes out there...which to choose 

I don't think it matters very much. There's only two end-member sessions on a spectrum: 1. try really hard for not very long. 2. Try pretty hard repeatedly for a bit longer. There's no convincing evidence to suggest that one end is better than the other for getting stronger fingers (as far as I'm aware).

The progress you make seems to depend on: 1. how hard you try, 2. how well you set the intensity, 3. how much you force the progression/use small, incremental changes, and 4. how used to the session structure you are (see abarrow's thread on consistency vs variety for making decisions on when to change the session structure to get a new stimulus - again, it's not clear cut, do it by feel: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=26346.0)

I don't understand your last most Murph... Apologies for my slowness!

[Murph]

Thanks again ben. Finding something and doing it is what matters I guess.

Slowness comment was just that I hadn't realised the reference to anaerobic endurance was what I was after. And Sasquatch had already pointed at it. No worries. 

Cheers for link to consistency thread.

[Sasquatch]

One more comment based on the "20" hangs comment.  Unlike endurance training, the benefits form strength training are in the actual maximum efforts.  I honestly do not know anyone who can recruit at their max 20 times.  If you are, then the likely issue is that you reps are not actually max reps.  Add more weight, and quit as soon as you fail.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but the strongest my fingers have ever been is a result of 8 x 10 second hangs, with the first three being progressive warmup hangs, and only 5 max hangs, with the last hang going to failure.  If I got the intensity perfect, then I failed at 10seconds on hang #5.  If it was a touch too high, then I failed early, if I got it a touch too low, then I'd hang longer until failure. 

[sidewinder]

8 x 10 second hangs

How long were you resting between hangs, until you felt fresh?

[Sasquatch]

3 to 5 minutes. 

[Murph]

Thanks Sasquatch that's great to know.

The 20 thing was just me airing what I was thinking of doing. I have no experience of strength training tho so am grateful for any advice.

Strangely enough it was an idea I got from something Alex Barrows said in another thread, where he was talking about why he didn't like strength training - cos 20 hangs, 2 min rest, it's too short a session. For me, right now, that sounds perfect.

8x10 with bigger rests would take the same amount of time. I'll keep that in mind. I want to do the opposite of my repeater experience which was too many reps not enough rest, having to skip reps to get a better "score" etc. This will be a few hard hangs and done.

Nice.

[abarro81]

Quite possible that I was referring to assisted 1 arm hangs, for those I rest 2 min between hangs but since it's alternating arms it's really 4 min between hard attempts on that arm. For totally maximal 10s hangs on 2 arms I usually rest 3-4 min. If the hangs are shorter (a few sec or 5 sec) I'll rest a bit less as I recover from them quicker (1-2min). Main thing is that you feel ready to try hard again - if not then rest a little more

[abarro81]

I still think strength training is lame and way less fun than enduro