[Snoops]

For years I've done 2 weight sessions a week, between 4-8 or 8-12 reps per set.
I've always done chest, back, biceps one session and shoulders, neck (shrugs) triceps on second session.
Thinking I should mix things up a bit I've been on google !! Turns out my split should be push and pull, ie shoulders chest triceps same session.
Any thoughts on this ? Have I been doing it wrong? Or  is it just good to switch?
Any advice on mixing things up appreciated peeps

[Nibile]

"And not a single leg was trained that day".
Here
http://www.t-nation.com/training/8-most-effective-training-splits
you'll find an article of the dozens that are featured on the matter.
Obviously, it mostly depends on your goals, because different splits, sets and reps combos give different results. Even how you perform a rep is crucial.
In any case, I highly suggest that you drop this kind of training and dedicate yourself to big compound movements with an emphasis on speed, teaming them with a few assistance excercise just because it's fun or for conditioning (AMRAP).

[Snoops]

Hi Nibs, I do drop in a few legs, but not a priority.
By my reckoning chest press's shoulder presses eg are compound.
Thx for the link

[Muenchener]

Some mention of what you are trying to achieve might be helpful

[Nibile]

Chest and shoulder presses are as compound as every other isolation excercise made with free weights.
Big compound lifts are another thing, like deadlifts and their variations, squats - esp. front squats - and of course all the cleans and snatches and their variations and combinations.
Just transforming the simple shoulder press into a clean and press adds considerable muscle stress to the task.
The more muscles are involved in the same movement, the better.

[Snoops]

Some mention of what you are trying to achieve might be helpful

I'm not trying to achieve anything per se. I'ver lifted for a long time (>10 years), without much focus, as a means of cross training - keeping me buff, and free from other injuries I guess. I just wanted to change my routines a bit, hence the post.

[mark s]

if you just doing a few sessions,dont waste time doing arms


deadlifts
squats
shoulder presses
bench presses
bent over rows/pull ups

mix them up any way you fancy

[Snoops]

Thx for the advice

[Sasquatch]

if you just doing a few sessions,dont waste time doing arms


deadlifts
squats
shoulder presses
bench presses
bent over rows/pull ups

mix them up any way you fancy

+1

I started doing the Wendler 5-3-1 which is a 4 day a week deal, but it would be pretty easy to tweak into a 2 day/week workout.  There are even guides online for doing it, and easy free apps to do all of the calcs for you. 

[hamsforlegs]

You could try doing some of the 'classic' programs?

I've got on well with Dan John's 'Easy Strength' (google it, or just search on T-Nation), which combines well with keeping up other sports if you're disciplined enough to be 'in and out'. You can reduce the frequency if you want - there's some discussion of it on Dan John's forum at Irononline.

Sasquatch - how did you find the Wendler programme along with climbing? I've thought about doing it, but wondered whether it might an all in deal?

[EDIT - should have noted that the Wendler programme is an all-time classic, I'm just expanding on Sasquatch's theme here]

[Sasquatch]

Good so far.  I'm in a weird place with life/work balance and have been for a few months now (started own business), so I was forced into short but regular training sessions for quite some time.  I've also been struggling with an un-diagnosed shoulder tweak (two physio's and the interweb can't seem to figure it out) .  Anyway, I like the program as a whole.  It's simple, makes sense to me, and after a few cycles I felt wicked strong.   In December, I'm hoping to start another cycle of it combined with some climbing specific work.  If folks are curious as to what I'm going to do, feel free to ask and I'll try and post.  Generally speaking it's adding in a day a week of each of Max Hangs, Wtd Pullups, Minimum edge hangs, and weights rows.   

[hamsforlegs]

Good so far.  I'm in a weird place with life/work balance and have been for a few months now (started own business), so I was forced into short but regular training sessions for quite some time.  I've also been struggling with an un-diagnosed shoulder tweak (two physio's and the interweb can't seem to figure it out) .  Anyway, I like the program as a whole.  It's simple, makes sense to me, and after a few cycles I felt wicked strong.   In December, I'm hoping to start another cycle of it combined with some climbing specific work.  If folks are curious as to what I'm going to do, feel free to ask and I'll try and post.  Generally speaking it's adding in a day a week of each of Max Hangs, Wtd Pullups, Minimum edge hangs, and weights rows.

Thanks for the rundown - much appreciated (and sorry for the slow reply). Funny how sometimes a bit of time pressure or an injury can get you out of a rut and doing something new. I'd be interested to hear how your December cycle goes.

Think I'll give the programme a spin. I've let myself get really deconditioned the last few months, so a block of basic sensible strength training could be just the ticket.

[Fiend]

Please post 'squatch.

I'm back mixing up gym sessions with indoor wall sessions, and I tend to do pretty much what Mark S says but with added core, cv, and a few pullups. Doesn't seem to make my climbing any worse especially now I'm throwing in some stretching to reduce the DOMS.

[Sasquatch]

OK. You guys asked for it, so here it is....

First of all, the 5-3-1 variation I'm following looks like this:

Week 1 - Each day is this format, just different lifts each day
  Warmup sets - 5reps @ 40% of 1rm, 5reps @ 50% of 1rm, 5reps @ 60% of 1rm
  Main sets - 5reps @ 65% of 1rm, 5reps @ 75% of 1rm, 5reps @ 85% of 1rm
  Volume Sets - 5 sets of 10reps @ 60% 1RM of Bench, and 5 sets of 10 reps @ 60% of 1rm of secondary exercise

Day 1 - Main Bench, Secondary Squats
Day 2 - Main Deadlift, Secondary Overhead Press
Rest Day
Day 3 - Main Squats, Secondary Bench
Day 4 - Main OH Press, Secondary Deadlift
Rest Day
Rest Day

Week 2 has only 3 reps and different %'s for the main sets, and week 3 is different as well.  You can fairly easily find the %'s online, or I can send you a spreadsheet if you PM me.

So what I'll be doing is the same reps/format of each day, but:

Day 1 - Main Bench and Minimum Edge Depth Hangs, Secondary Squats and also Ab Roller(Hinging Abs)
Day 2 - Main Deadlift and Weighted Pullups, Secondary OH Press and Ring Planks (static Abs)
Rest Day (light cardio as active recovery)
Day 3 - Main Squats and Max weighted Hangs, Secondary Bench and Ankles to Bar(Hinging Abs)
Day 4 - Main OH Press and Weighted inverted Rows, Secondary Deadlift and flutter kicks(sorta static abs)
Rest Day
Rest Day

So adding 1 main and an extra core(ab)-based secondary. 

My goal is to do this for three weeks, then 2 weeks of campus and dynamic bouldering, then a second cycle. 

For the hangs, I am going to be treating 3 seconds as 1 rep, and setting the feet down and lifting the fingers off of the edge between each rep, but no chalking, or such.  All hangs will be half crimp, and failure is any loss of form, or dropping off. 

I am in week 2 of a basic 5-3-1 right now, so I will be adding the climbing base stuff in December. 

Let me know if you have any questions, or need any clarification. 

This is aimed at pure strength, not power, technique or fitness. 

[Fiend]

All makes sense. Except, aren't you worried that the volume sets will build muscle bulk and thus weight?

[Sasquatch]

Not really.  I figure I'll see what happens and if I start to see weight gain, I'll adapt as needed. 

My last two cycles I saw a distinct change in phsyique, but no weight gain.  I was far more cut across the board than is normal for me, which my ego and vanity appreciated.  I also was climbing at near my personal best, but at a weight of 5-8 lbs heavier.  A such, I think there's room for me to continue getting stronger, more cut, and dropping that extra 5-8 lbs, which should put me in near perfect climbing condition.  Fingers crossed, that's what happens over the next 6 months, and I can have a strong spring season.

[siderunner]

Sounds good Sasquatch, thanks. I'm going to try some of those sessions as I go into my strength phase next week.

Googling around I found that 5RM is typically 85% of 1RM. Probably obvious to the hardcore weights guys. I think that allows me to work out those week 1 loads as fractions of the heaviest 5 rep lift I can manage, which sounds safer than testing my 1RM.

[blamo]

Thanks for posting that up.  I have been doing a similar workout routine (lifting + max. hangs).  I am surprised at how well it appears to be working.

Two questions:

I was a little confused on the timing of your hangs.  Are you doing 3 sec on/ X sec off?  For how many sets?

What is the thought behind the OH press?  I have been doing the push-press, but really have no thought as to why it might be valuable.

Thanks for posting your details.

[Sasquatch]

The hang timing is a bit funky.  It's 3 sec hang, then put feet down, lift fingers, and immediately put them back on and engage. So no real rest, just long enough to reset and engage. My thinking behind this came from two places.

1 - Fultonius mentioned in a thread that maximum isometric recruitment takes 1.8 seconds, so I think centering a timeframe based on that seemed reasonable. 

2 - If you think of lifting weights, you'll find that most lifts take 2-5 second to complete, depending on the type of lift.  Generally you have a "easy" point in the lift where you sort of rest/reset(think full stand on squats, arms fully extended on bench, etc.) I think? this"rest" allows your energy system to replenish slightly. As such, I thought something similar could effectively apply to hangs.

I'm just trying something a bit different out and seeing how it goes.  If it works well, I'd love to test it on a broader group. 

A 3 second hang = 1 rep, so if i'm doing the 5 rep week, then i do 5 x 3 sec hangs.  on the 3 rep week, it's 3 x 3 sec hang. The hangs follow the same set/rep/%max as everything else. 

For the OH press, I have two reasons.  One is that it is a part of the basic 5/3/1 program.  # Two is that I'm getting older and I've noticed my shoulders need strength maintenance, and this is a good balance for them. 

[Fiend]

Sort of relevant to this thread. Question:

Duncan Eagles - when I do my short section of deadlifting at the gym (n.b. gym sessions to complement lots of indoor bouldering which the weather is forcing at the moment, arse), the most convenient weights for 120kg (my mid-range) are RED 25s, YELLOW 15s and GREEN 10s. I think of your stupid white reggae face each time I'm grunting and sweating lifting them.

when you say "complement" presumably you mean "wasting time that i could be spending doing something more specific".........

Such as? I do a mix of CV, core, antagonistic, climbing-related training and small amounts of larger lifts at the gym. I can't train every day at the wall as my skin gets fucked, I can't train fingerboard/campus in between wall sessions as my fingers and elbows get tweaky. ??

Since Gus now refuses to actually back up his statement with any suggestions, what do you lot on here think??