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One armer discussion (split from strong fingers thread) (Read 17497 times)

AMorris

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That's a big cup Morris!  ;D
The bigger one is around 20 mm maybe a bit more.
The smaller one - on top - is 14 mm.
Being incut is crucial for taking out the skin/friction factor.
One armers are a lot less stable than normal pull ups and front on even less so. You don't want to suddenky slip off!

Fair enough, nice and small then! Yeah I agree that it helps for stability and friction if they are incut.

I have realised after my fingerboard session this evening that I have super unflexible wrists to the point where I find it very difficult to actually finish front on without twisting slightly to attain full lock, I don't seem to be able to twist my hand full around. Does anyone else have this problem or am I just cursed?  :-\

Nibile

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Sorry man, I didn't want to sound cocky! I am a bit touchy when it comes to size though!  ;)
Anyway, yes, the wrist position in frontal one armers (that hereby I christen FOA) is pretty stressful at the top.
The problem is that we normally tend to center our body under the wrist and pull the chin close and over it, which causes a strong twist. Being strong enough as to keep our body to the side of the arm would solve the issue...

rodma

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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet

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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet

Oh no, I fully realise you're right.
I'd never tried on a campus board before and our BMs have clear space below so any amount of swinging around was possible.


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Nibile

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Hmmmm... I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
While a close grip standard pull up could give an idea, it doesn't translate exactly to FOAs.
The symmetry of the prehension can easily compensate the stress of the wrist rotation, and it's likely that while doing a normal pull up you'll be a bit further apart from the bar so that the rotation is different than when you're closer to the bar as in a FOA.
To replicate the position try to mimic a FOA and see how it feels to have your wrist to your chin: you'll see that you tend to twist it as when doing a twisting one armer.
If you mimic a FOA but you keep the wrist at ching height but to the side, directly in front of the shoulder, you'll see that there's a lot less rotation, but obviously a lot more tension on the shoulder.
So, what happens in normal pull ups, due to the double prehension and the symmetry, is very different from FOAs.
The twisting that happens in normal one armers is due to the natural behaving of our body, it's the most effective way to bring the chin over the bar on one arm.

DAVETHOMAS90

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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet

Rodders, the obvious question of course.

I find the "prone" hand position on a bar quite stressful, so always work one-arms on a bar with the "baseball" grip.

That's a big cup Morris!  ;D
The bigger one is around 20 mm maybe a bit more.
The smaller one - on top - is 14 mm.
Being incut is crucial for taking out the skin/friction factor.
One armers are a lot less stable than normal pull ups and front on even less so. You don't want to suddenly skip off!

That's a situation where having "stronger than average finger strength" would really help, IMHO. Someone should start a thread about that.  ;)  ..though I'm enjoying this one.

DAVETHOMAS90

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Very succinctly put Lore.  ;D

tomtom

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OK - but you wouldnt need to do a FOA if you were (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip...

Alternatively, if you were somewhere where the rock got in the way of the swinging - wouldn't this just automatically correct a regular twisty OA into a FOA?

But I suspect I'm missing the point that this is a training issue right? ;)

DAVETHOMAS90

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OK - but you wouldnt need to do a FOA if you were (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip...

Alternatively, if you were somewhere where the rock got in the way of the swinging - wouldn't this just automatically correct a regular twisty OA into a FOA?

Do you mean in a situation where you might have to use your feet - if you weren't (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip..?

In a difficult situation like that, you could add a weight belt in an attempt to retain the training effect. ?

rodma

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Cheeky badgers

I already mentioned the lip hold as being about the only time that being rotated was useful.

The ability to pull deep, face on, using a terrible, or non existent foothold is needless to say, quite useful, especially if the handhold is too poor to pull yourself inwards on to generate additional foot friction.

Pako

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As I see it, the point of training to do a perfect FOA is not that you will perform the full FOA range of motion while climbing, but that by having that strength any pulling movements will be significantly easier, and you will be able to lock off deeper hopefully. I too have realized of late that my 'front on one armers' are in actuality far from front on, and have been trying occasionally to work my deep front on lock. Only occasionally because of fear of disturbing my elbow from its tentative reverie of late.

I started off doing one armers using the neutral or baseball grip, but those are much easier than proper FOAs, and are much less useful for climbing I find. I also tend to feel more pain in my elbows doing one armers in neutral grip as opposed to doing them front on, probably because neutral grip uses the bicep more while the front on is mainly a back exercise.

DAVETHOMAS90

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.. while climbing .. useful for climbing ..

I don't understand  :shrug:

neutral grip uses the bicep more while the front on is mainly a back exercise.

I'm not sure I'd try to separate them quite as clearly. I think I'd prefer to work the deeper front on lock by doing negative muscle-ups - perfect for isolating the upper range of movement. In a "climbing" (is that the word you use?) situation, I think you'd need enough weight through your feet, and a "good enough" hold, to counteract the natural moment that occurs, so that in training ( :punk:) better gains might be achieved by working different parts of the movement separately.

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I don't want to be nitpicking but I think that it's not specifically due to the prehension, but to the execution.
You can transform the pull up in a bicep-dominant excercise by trying to lock the shoulders and "curl the bar to you". This is harder on a pronated grip, easier on a neutral grip.
To neutralize biceps engagement you have to start the pull with a strong depression of the scapula and follow with pulling the elbow down to the ribs. Ideally with straight arms, to then flex the elbows and engage biceps only for the second half of the pull, for which the lats are kind of useless, given that they are inserted on the humerus.

DAVETHOMAS90

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In case there are any doubters, with reference to the above image which appeared on the Megos @ NRG thread, I appreciate this could be disturbing/disappointing. However, here, Alex was in fact working the plannched position. Order restored.

Lore, thanks for your input, a always.  :yes:

AMorris

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Sorry man, I didn't want to sound cocky! I am a bit touchy when it comes to size though!  ;)
Anyway, yes, the wrist position in frontal one armers (that hereby I christen FOA) is pretty stressful at the top.
The problem is that we normally tend to center our body under the wrist and pull the chin close and over it, which causes a strong twist. Being strong enough as to keep our body to the side of the arm would solve the issue...

Haha, no worries, aren't we all!

Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet

Yeah I have tried this, I have real problems with narrow grip pull ups (anything which is about shoulder width apart, I cannot do comfortably to full lock). From palm out I can only rotate my hand about 110 degrees on the right and 140 on the left. I have compared my wrist flexation to my colleagues and they agree that there is something wrong with mine! Not good, I might have to start doing wrist exercises it seems. Christ knows what form they would take though.

Going a little more square, more akin to a wider grip two armer, is much easier for me though stronger across the shoulder.

rodma

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Sounds more likely to be forearm /bicep issues rather than wrist per se

Oldmanmatt

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Two handed, close grip, I can easily hold the lock at nipple height. The tension I feel (both in the FOAs and these) is in the Brachioradialis.
And repeating the exercise in the "baseball"/side on position, I don't feel that muscle engaging at all.



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DAVETHOMAS90

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Two handed, close grip, I can easily hold the lock at nipple height. The tension I feel (both in the FOAs and these) is in the Brachioradialis.
And repeating the exercise in the "baseball"/side on position, I don't feel that muscle engaging at all.



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OMM,

I switched to doing one arm work with a neutral grip primarily because of problems I was getting with the brachioradialis tendon. Of course, it can be difficult to get the reassuring feeling that a particular muscle group is engaged, but unfortunately, by engaged, we may also mean unhealthily stressed.

In my case, it may have been the volume (number) of pull ups that caused the problem, which may not be relevant in your case (I no longer do large sets of pull-ups).

I do hammer curls to work the brachioradialis separately. I'm not going to recommend negative muscle-ups, as they're too effective at isolating the deep front on lock (a position I lower into, before pressing out again) and I don't want other people finding out how good they are.

In order to avoid injury, would it not be better to work each muscle group in a mechanically advantageous way, working with greater resistance, even if there's a position in climbing where a particular muscle feels more engaged? Just wondering.

Is there a separate one-armer thread? Should we split this, as it's way off topic? The original "strong fingers" discussion was a good one. Thoughts OP?

shark

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Is there a separate one-armer thread? Should we split this, as it's way off topic?

Done. (phew)

marcpontin

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my two penneth!
I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength that depends on what the other arm is doing. For instance if trying 1-4-7 on mega jugs it is interesting to note the different muscles that are employed if you try and lock off rung 4 with your free arm hovering over rung 7. The shoulder rotation required to make the reach seems to load up the deltoids quite differently to if you weren't reaching high. This shoulder strength seem to me much more specific for climbing than plain one-armers where the free arm is not reaching up.(It also seems much nicer on the elbows as the shoulder rotation seems to relieve the stress on the 'golfers elbow' impingement point.

DAVETHOMAS90

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I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength

Hi Marc, me too  :P

my two penneth!
I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength that depends on what the other arm is doing. For instance if trying 1-4-7 on mega jugs it is interesting to note the different muscles that are employed if you try and lock off rung 4 with your free arm hovering over rung 7. The shoulder rotation required to make the reach seems to load up the deltoids quite differently to if you weren't reaching high. This shoulder strength seem to me much more specific for climbing than plain one-armers where the free arm is not reaching up.(It also seems much nicer on the elbows as the shoulder rotation seems to relieve the stress on the 'golfers elbow' impingement point.

Good point. I think I know what you mean. It feels more restful and in equilibrium doesn't it?

How do you find that on the smallest rungs - just so as I'll know what to expect?  8)

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Nice one Dave!
I have been trying 1-4-7 on the large metolius rungs at the works and getting pretty close moving dynamically but have identified my 'lock and reach' strength as letting me down. Have started doing the 1-4-7 static on the mega logs at the works, basically doing 1-4, mantelling up into position for the reach and then trying to reach up and float the lead hand over rung 7. It seems to really hit the right part of the shoulder. I reckon this front on shoulder rotation is a neglected area of training as the entire width of the shoulder can be used to improve reach enormously. I think 'deep lock' training should be rebranded as 'deep lock and reach' training. Would be interested to know if any of the campus beasts out there can easily hold 4-7 static! 

small rungs, still lacking the basic fingers to do much more than 1-4-5!!

rodma

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Nice one Dave!
I have been trying 1-4-7 on the large metolius rungs at the works and getting pretty close moving dynamically but have identified my 'lock and reach' strength as letting me down. Have started doing the 1-4-7 static on the mega logs at the works, basically doing 1-4, mantelling up into position for the reach and then trying to reach up and float the lead hand over rung 7. It seems to really hit the right part of the shoulder. I reckon this front on shoulder rotation is a neglected area of training as the entire width of the shoulder can be used to improve reach enormously. I think 'deep lock' training should be rebranded as 'deep lock and reach' training. Would be interested to know if any of the campus beasts out there can easily hold 4-7 static! 

small rungs, still lacking the basic fingers to do much more than 1-4-5!!

on a board like the works, i can lock 4-7, but by cheating (rotating my arm inwards against my body to generate friction to prevent movement), but this is not beneficial. in my formative years i could do the 4-7 part of a 1-4-7 on the works board by just letting go with the lower hand and pulling with the upper hand, i could only ever tickle 7 on a proper campus board though

jwi

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Proper depth, no kicks, high lock off. No fluff. Some twisting, but that's ok with a finger in a sling right?

https://www.facebook.com/135005263234183/videos/936662803068421/?permPage=1

Nibile

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I'm afraid it's not.
First of all, as Jerry wrote and as we all know, using a sling for monos "Is a little bit like cheating".
Then, the use of a sling allows for less twisting of the body because it's the sling that twists. If you watch carefully the final position of the palm at the end of the pull up, you'll see that it's basically supinated. This freedom of twist for the wrist makes useless the twisting of the body that a bar requires.
The shoulder and forearm stability required by a proper FOA on a fixed hold are different, not to mention that in a proper FOA the bicep works with a pronated prehension, so it can contract less, there's more brachialis involvement, etc.
To cut a long story short: back around Magnus, go back to climbing 9b, FOAs are serious stuff.

 

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