[blamo]

Not to sound like a total complainer, but I am trying to figure out how to improve given limited setting.

My gym seems to fumble, very hard, in the V9+ grades.  Basically, we have people who have sent very few V9s setting at that grade.  I don't mind that, what I do mind is that the problems become very height dependent.  Outside you can usually find a foot or alternate beta.  How do you deal with this inside?  Not really looking for sympathy, mostly constructive ways to approach limited setting. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I would say, don't read a good book when you sit on the bog, and you may find that it sets less.

Just in case I've misinterpreted the thread, how about offering to set some of your own problems, or at least making your views known to the wall. I'm sure they will value your comments; better set problems will likely improve business for them.

[rodma]

Height dependent as in impossible, or height dependent as in totally nails of you're a short arse? If it's the latter treat it as training, it's indoors after all.

For a while at my local wall the only person setting decent 7s and 8s was a bit taller than me which meant I was getting shut down on what were supposedly ok problems due to his style of setting. It made me really strong in the end.

If not possible, do as Dave suggests.

[jakk]

+1 on asking to set some of your own, some walls are open to it, some less so.

Other than that, you might just have to get into the habit of making your own stuff up so long as there is a sufficiently dense bit of wall. Can be tricky to get the hang of making good problems at the grade you want but if you can find a partner to do it with you, same style or different, then it'll be a lot easier

[Fultonius]

Eat more fibre.

[blamo]

Thanks guys!  They aren't very open to others setting.  I should probably leave a comment in their box.

As suggested, spending more time making my own problems on dense walls is probably the way to go.

I was thinking of height dependent as problems that become much much harder (or easier) if you are really short or tall.  However, I suppose everyone can complain about this in some way. 

[haydn jones]

Just create your own problems. Training innit

[i.munro]

Take your business elsewhere having told them why. Climbers seem amazingly reluctant to do this.

[mctrials23]

Take your business elsewhere having told them why. Climbers seem amazingly reluctant to do this.

Not all of us have the luxury of doing that and not all of us have the time to travel another 30 minutes to get to another wall.

At the arch they have a tendency to set some stuff with super high feet which I find really hard being ~6'2" but honestly there is enough stuff around the v8 grade that there are only a few that are super hard for my height and I would guess that if I was a beast I could probably ignore the foot so getting stronger might be the answer.

You have to realise that not every problem will suit you. I'm just happy that I'm not the guy down there who doesn't have anything to challenge him without hitting the 50 degree board because he is a v10-11 climber.

p.s. Everybody complains that x is harder for them when they see someone taller / shorted make it look easy. Sometimes its easier to persuade yourself that they are the right height than it is to realise they are actually quite strong.

Basically, get stronger, talk to them about it and make your own stuff if you have to.

[i.munro]

Not all of us have the luxury of doing that and not all of us have the time to travel another 30 minutes to get to another wall.

Which is why walls  provide crap setting and crap facilities generally and gives them  no incentive to do otherwise.

[blamo]

Basically, get stronger, talk to them about it and make your own stuff if you have to.

This always seems to be the answer!  Sack up and train. 


I do find it a bit tricky to hit the right level of "try hard" mode when the problems are really short or tall.  Following a few suggestions on here, I tried setting my own problems today with some luck (dialing in the intensity can be a bit tricky).  Seems like eliminating or adding feet to already set problems definitely takes a bit of the guess work out.

Thanks for the responses!

[mctrials23]

Which is why walls  provide crap setting and crap facilities generally and gives them  no incentive to do otherwise.

I don't disagree with the idea of what you are saying, I just don't think that enough people are A) operating in the grades that mean this is an issue. B) Are able to pick and choose which wall they use without a huge amount of extra effort for potentially no gain in wall quality.

[Nibile]

blamo,
I spoke with Dave Mac about your problem and he came up with a simple solution. He said that you sell your house (if you have one), sell your wife (if you have one), sell your kid/s (if you have one or more), sell a kidney (if you have two), buy or build a gigantic hangar close to your favourite climbing area and build a monster climbing wall all for yourself, perfect for your needs.
Where's your will power?

[blamo]

Nibile,

I appreciate your tongue and cheek comment. 

 
Anecdotally, it seems like people who make drastic life changing decisions, solely in the pursuit of climbing, end up having it backfire on them in the long run (rarely does it seem like they have an improved quality of life or long-term climbing improvements).
 

[Lund]

I'm just happy that I'm not the guy down there who doesn't have anything to challenge him without hitting the 50 degree board because he is a v10-11 climber.

Not sure about those numbers at the arch, but then I've not been there for a bit - I've actually never been to the new building.

However, the concept is bang on: at some point, whatever wall you are at the regular surfaces will become exhausted for training purposes at some point for whatever reason, I think.  Whether that's not hard enough, or because you need to do circuits and its too busy, or ...

At this point, you need to graduate to the "50 degree board", get creative, and spend ages doing hard moves and failing and getting stronger.

If your wall doesn't have such a training surface, find or build one.

[Nibile]

Nibile,

I appreciate your tongue and cheek comment.  Cheers. 

 
Anecdotally, it seems like people who make drastic life changing decisions, solely in the pursuit of climbing, end up having it backfire on them in the long run (rarely does it seem like they have an improved quality of life or long-term climbing improvements).
 

I agree with you. I've had lots of friends who dropped their girlfriends and quit their jobs for climbing more, that ended up not climbing at all neither training because they didn't have enough money for petrol or a gym membership.
Speak with the wall owners, or set your own problems with the existing holds in place.

[i.munro]

I don't disagree with the idea of what you are saying, I just don't think that enough people are A) operating in the grades that mean this is an issue. B) Are able to pick and choose which wall they use without a huge amount of extra effort for potentially no gain in wall quality.

I don't see how grade is relevant. From my experience poor setting tends to be more prevalent at lower grades and those operating at those grades don't have the experience to realise that they are only training one aspect of climbing strength at the expense of all the others.

I feel that if the facility the OP is using is resulting in poor sessions, which it sounds as if it is,  then trading a shorter sesh + travel for a long poor sesh would be worthwhile.  Obviously it depends on the available options but walls are popping up all over the place now. In general I think '"just put up with it" should be the last resort not the first.

[abarro81]

What counts as life changing decisions?
Ive made a number of decisions on education, work and life based on climbing and have yet to regret any of them.. E.g. Leaving Oxford uni to move to Sheffield, whilst dumb on the face of it to many, is still the best single decision I've ever made in my life. There's balance to be struck, but if climbing makes you happy then that balance can be a long way towards climbing and still work...

[Three Nine]

What counts as life changing decisions?
Ive made a number of decisions on education, work and life based on climbing and have yet to regret any of them.. E.g. Leaving Oxford uni to move to Sheffield, whilst dumb on the face of it to many, is still the best single decision I've ever made in my life. There's balance to be struck, but if climbing makes you happy then that balance can be a long way towards climbing and still work...

Nonsense, you were sent down for failing your klowning certificate.

[mctrials23]

I don't see how grade is relevant. From my experience poor setting tends to be more prevalent at lower grades and those operating at those grades don't have the experience to realise that they are only training one aspect of climbing strength at the expense of all the others.

Of course its more prevalent at lower grades because there is so much stuff there compared to the higher V grades. There will probably be 3-4 circuits below V3 at most walls and only select problems above V9. Volume wise there will be way more poorly set low graded stuff. Couple that with the ease at which anyone operating in the V8 ish range will find stuff at such low grades and its not hard to see why plenty struggle to set good easy circuits.

No one claimed that setting hard stuff is the only place a lot of walls struggle, its just what the discussion is about. I don't know how you expect a route setter to create interesting problems at a grade that they are incapable of climbing though. How do they know its a V9 if they have never been up on. How do they know its not V11?

My other half has only been climbing for less than a year but she is very aware of when a circuit in the low V grades is rubbish. Most other people are as well. They may not always be able to say exactly why but they certainly realise.

[blamo]

I feel that if the facility the OP is using is resulting in poor sessions, which it sounds as if it is,  then trading a shorter sesh + travel for a long poor sesh would be worthwhile.  Obviously it depends on the available options but walls are popping up all over the place now.

No other gyms within a couple of hours.  It might be a slightly better investment in time to focus on making my own problems on a steep woody.  Part of this is getting past the glamour of the new types of gyms and clocking up time on gritty problems. 


 

What counts as life changing decisions?

Poor choice of words on my part.  Perhaps "decisions made solely in the pursuit of climbing harder."  I think you struck the nail on the head with "balance."  Definitely different for everyone.  I am not trying to judge others decisions, just making a fairly superficial observation. 

 

[abarro81]

Back on topic:
I find it a bit funny when people moan about setting styles, beyond dangerous/tweaky stuff anyway. Obviously some setting is better than others, and it's nice to climb on cool problems, but it's still all training, and if it doesn't suit you or feels harder than it 'should' then it's probably working a weakness so is actually what you need. If you need to manipulate problems to be more homogenous or something for circuits and links then that can easily be solved with adding in a hold or a foot hold here or there so whilst it's not convenient it's not overly arduous.. However I may just be spoiled by living in Shef so I forget what shit setting is really like.

[mctrials23]

Different people get different things from their climbing. Due to my location and time considerations indoor climbing makes up 98% of my climbing. If the setting is really poor then that will naturally effect my climbing enjoyment. There isn't really any excuse for consistently poor route setting in my eyes.

Also, yes if you live in sheffield you are spoilt full stop! You have easily some of the best walls in the country coupled with real rock super close. Most people don't have that luxury.

[Moo]

Take a hammer with you and smash the problems you don't like to pieces this will give the setters ballpark examples to aim for as all their unpleasant problems will be a pile of plastic shards on the floor.

[abarro81]

Also, yes if you live in sheffield you are spoilt full stop! You have easily some of the best walls in the country coupled with real rock super close. Most people don't have that luxury.

Well like Dave mac said 

[i.munro]

Back on topic:
I find it a bit funny when people moan about setting styles, beyond dangerous/tweaky stuff anyway. Obviously some setting is better than others, and it's nice to climb on cool problems, but it's still all training, and if it doesn't suit you or feels harder than it 'should' then it's probably working a weakness so is actually what you need.

What I see, when walls are trying to set on the cheap, is that most problems become a sequence of long, usually dynamic ,reaches between overlarge holds.  This means the climber of average height works only one aspect of climbing strength - arm power. Finger strength, core etc are completely neglected.  The shorter than avg climber ends up having to drop a grade so the holds are even more oversized for them, making this situation worse.   It is all 'training" but if everything has to be campussed then you ay as well just use a campus board.

None of which helps the poor OP though  -2 hours !!

[abarro81]

Ah yeah, fair point that

[blamo]

Thanks for the observation i.munro.  That is really helpful.

I had never thought about the issue of boulder problems becoming a sequence of throws.  I had always thought of this as poorly positioned feet (or minimal numbers of foot options).  It definitely seems like people setting well below their bouldering limit are able to account for that a bit more easily (which I guess is obvious).

[Sasquatch]

I'll chime in on this as I've dealt with this issue for nearly 18 years off and on.  I live in Alaska and there is currently 1 gym in town.  There is a small gym about 1 hr drive away and the next closest is a 3.5 hr flight to seattle.  I've been operating as the hardest boulderer here in AK for about the last 15-18 years.  The route setters are generally at least 2-3 grades below, with generally one strong young guy.  currently we've got a pretty good group of strong guys here, but generally in the past it's been 1-2 guys operating at v9+. 

The gym's perspective:
The bottom line is that the gym has zero real incentive to set for the top 5%.  We are dedicated climbers who will be climbing there regardless.  They are setting for the people who are less dedicated and if there's not sufficient problem turnover and quality in the v3-v6 range, these people will choose to do something else - yoga, crossfit, ski, bike, etc.  They also have to set for kids and birthday groups.  This means functionally setting sections of the walls to be jungle gyms.  They also have little incentive to set for "training" as they would rather people be climbing in the gym than climbing outside. 

All that said, the setters, staff, owners, generally are climbers, and generally like climbers.   They want to the customers to be happy and will work with you to make it so.  What I've found is that I have to approach it from their perspective.  Talk to them about problems you like and don't like.  Be really supportive and appreciate of their efforts and they're far more likely to respond to your needs.  Learn and training opportunities for them, and online setting info they can check into. 

I would guess the setting staff at a gym will almost always be predominantly young males with a turnover of 3-5 years.  From what I know, it just doesn't pay enough to make it a career,  and so it can only be filled by a certain demographic.  It seems to take them 1-2 years just to get to 80% quality setting, and to get to set quality at the extremes of their grades, it take much longer.  A good head setter, good training, and good feedback greatly improve the setting and help it come up to speed faster. 

In the end, I train hard on the FB, campus, weights, etc. and use the climbing as a means to keep flow and movement.  I virtually never "work" problems at the gym.  Partly due to lack of difficulty and partly due to lack of interest in doing so. 

[petejh]

A thought - if it means enough to you to have good indoor problems at a certain difficulty then it might be worth offering to do a deal with the wall owners, whereby you purchase your own sets of holds and set problems at the difficulty and in the style you want them. In return the wall owners allow you to use their wall for free, or at a discount.
They get free routes, you get the problems you want and a facility to try them. Both parties benefit.

[Oldmanmatt]

Every set has it's fans and detractors, there is rarely anything definitively negative in feedback.
Oddly "reachy" is a common complaint and often  made by people who are markedly taller than some who flashed the same problem.

We try to mitigate it.

We have an area of wall where we mark out the span of anyone who cares to volunteer (must be over a hundred now) and try to use it as a guide.

As well as our regular circuits, we hold back a set of orange and wooden holds for customers to set and a full set of yellows for setting circuits.
We also have four different sets (with polka dots) to set pure (small) kids routes...

Some people still complain.

The top end problems are usually set by one of the better locals as a direct challenge to the others.

(Actually, it usually starts with someone saying "I'm going to get Ed with this one" ).

It seems rare that any set is unpopular, though we have had to modify individual problems.

Getting good feedback is often like drawing teeth from a duck, in a dark room, with a wooden spoon, wearing welders gloves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SA Chris]

Nibile,

I appreciate your tongue and cheek comment. 

 
Anecdotally, it seems like people who make drastic life changing decisions, solely in the pursuit of climbing, end up having it backfire on them in the long run (rarely does it seem like they have an improved quality of life or long-term climbing improvements).
 

Off topic - but someone needs to make a climbing version of this, it's brilliantly done

(His van is identical to mine )

[Nibile]

Lovely. I like all the hating comments from those who think he's serious.

[SA Chris]

I know, it's a work of genius, so subtly done.