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Punter's guide to predicting conditions on the Diamond (Read 14401 times)

petejh

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......

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 06:39:53 am by habrich, Reason: further edit! »

petejh

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I thought I'd put up this little guide up to help people thinking of traveling over to climb on the Diamond from wasting a journey and to help manage expectations. The info about dew point/air temps can be applied to LPT and other sea-level crags.

The Diamond's an amazing sport crag with world-class routes, but it's location next to the sea means the ambient air temperature, dew point and winds all need to line up to give good crisp conditions. On dry days, when you can climb on inland crags without being aware of any conditions issues, the sea-level crags on the Ormes can be unclimbable if the factors aren't right. This can make for a frustrating experience if you don't know what to expect as the Diamond isn't visible on the handline approach. It also means some people can get unlucky (I've been shut down with the same person twice recently and he doesn't get out any other days..) and end up believing the cliffs are always greasy. They're not at all -  and crisp days are the norm in August to early Sept, but there's really no point going on some days when it might seem like a fair bet from the car park.

This is what I've noticed from spending a lot of time at the Diamond:

Dew Point temperature (look it up). It all boils down to this - your enjoyment depends on the size of the gap between the dew point temperature and air temperature. But with some other factors that can help or hinder if the gap is marginal.
Dew Point temperature is always lower than air temperature. It is the temperature at which moisture in the air turns to liquid (condensation). The closer the air temperature is to the dew point, the more moisture will form on the rock. For good conditions on the Diamond the dew point needs to be at least 6 or 7 degrees below the air temperature (at the local weather station reference point, see below) to stand a chance of the rock not being greasy. If the gap is 6 or 7 you also need a breeze hitting the crag and late afternoon sun. Without wind and sun it's likely conditions will be marginal - i.e. just about dryable with lots of chalk and brushing between each burn.
For good connies, you're looking ideally for a gap of =>8 degrees - then a breeze & sun aren't required. With either is a bonus.
If you ever go there on a day with a =>10 degree gap and it's windy, in the afternoon sun, you'll wonder what all the fuss is about because it'll be like a perfect crisp winter's day on grit.

August has more warm days than September. Dew point gaps are more often larger in Aug than Sept, and by Oct you'll need stormy winds to get good conditions.

Humidity - most of the time this can be used in the same way as Dew Point - 50-75% is a good range, the lower the better. The reason the dew point-air temp difference is a better indicator is because humidity is a relative measure but dew point is absolute. So if the air temperature goes high in summer (some chance) then the relative humidity can remain seemingly lowish while the total amount of moisture in the air has actually risen (warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air).

Wind. The stronger the better. Westerly through north to north-easterly is what you want. The crag faces northwest. In late Sept/Oct look out for the hurricane season in the North Atlantic bringing in tail end high winds to the UK.

Sun. It's usefulness ranges from not required on good crisp days (it can be baking in a nice summer) to essential on marginal days (typical summer this year). The cliff receives sun from 4pm in august but not till 5 in September.

Rain. Doesn't really matter, the crag stays dry and you can climb in the rain (if the dew point hasn't shot up and air temp dropped down). Rain makes the approach very slippery on the old guano. A few of the vertical 7s on the left get a little wet but they quickly dry off.

Seepage. Not an issue for most routes. If there's been prolonged heavy rain the following routes can seep a little though they all quickly dry:
A couple of the vertical 7s on the lefthand side.
Jungle Warfare follows a wet streak
The finish of wall of evening light.
Top of Brutal (8b+) or 8c+ if thinking of extending Diamond Dogs).
Top of The Beast
Pink Star crack seeps if it's been a wet winter/spring (it's bone dry this year..)

Old Chalk. It holds the moisture - brushing it off makes a huge difference on marginal days! On a 30m route it can be a good warm-up just brushing the route if you're well-psyched for the redpoint. Not required on good connies days obviously. Bring lots of chalk and a good brush for marginal days.

Tide Afternoon air temperatures are nearly always higher than mornings. Combined with the crag getting late afternoon /evening sun, it means it's usually best conditions from mid-afternoon to mid-evening before the air cools down too much. Access is possible from 4 hours before low-tide to 4 hours after low-tide. This obviously affects when you can get at the good conditions.. You can get a lock-in on a rising tide, the left-hand side of the crag is non-tidal..

Non-greasy routes / particularly greasy routes
Best:
The left-hand wall doesn't suffer from grease anywhere near as much as the central and righthand walls. You can usually climb the vertical 7s left of Non-Tidal Screamer without issues. Also, Empire State (8a, or 8c with the full font 8A start) takes a line of golden rock which doesn't suffer grease as much as The Brute on the grey rock to the right or Never Get Out of the Boat on and left.
(anti)best:
Wall of the Evening light - the black rock at mid-height on this gets greasy first.
The smooth grey rock in the central section (Brute etc.) also.


Predicting connies
To predict good conditions I use a local amateur weather station located close to sea level in Llandudno. It shows hourly dew point temps along with the other usual stuff. This is the site (WeatherUnderground is really useful):
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=pws:INORTHWA3&MR=1

There are a few other stations located close by that all probably show similar readings but I try to use the same one as a reference point. Use the 'change station' tab to choose the 'Alexandra Hotel' station.

The point of using the hourly temps/dew points is that you get a clearer picture of how conditions can be rubbish for parts of the day and great for other parts. It's more precise than what the met office gives you.

Here's what to look for. Today's forecast is looking like good connies for this evening - an 8 degree gap between dew point/air temp, an average NW breeze and sun.


For visual types - if you click on 'graph' and then the 'customise' tab you can add in the dew point and see the hourly dew point/air temp gap in graphical form.

It's obvious from looking at this over a few days that dew-point / air temp gap normally widens through the day to peak around late afternoon and then starts to converge later in the evening.

For trainspotters. You can look at historical data to compare conditions found on the cliff with the day's forecast. Click on the 'almanac' tab.


This weekend - the current forecast shows Saturday looking good, possibly mint. Tides are early though, so you won't get the afternoon sun and the highest air temps which would make it a dead cert for the crag being mint. I'd go, with that forecast.
Sunday's looking marginal. I'd probably not go, unless I was working a section of a route or was prepared to take a chance and suffer a bit.

Obviously you should check the forecast the day before and on the day, it changes closer to the time.

Saturday
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 12:58:00 pm by petejh »

Doylo

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Not much to it is there...

abarro81

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Monolith

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In the gibbous phase of the moon on a wednesday, take the handkerchief off Snuggling Bear under the crossing of the transept. You will be rewarded with Diamond conditions...

Jokes aside, get that bound and sold in V12 Northern Soul style Pete!


Wood FT

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Very altruistic of you Pete, good man

petejh

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Btw the dewpoint gap is just my hypothesis based on what I've experienced. But I'm fairly confident it's a useful aid.

I put a couple of screen grabs in the post, showing the hourly chart, but don't know why they aren't showing up. Probably because it's war&peace.


wsmith

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Awesome. Cheers Pete

Luke Owens

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Good write up Pete, cheers!

This all might sound a bit much to some people, but after looking into Dew Point, Air Temp etc. before going down there it really does seem to make a lot of difference. Well worth checking first.

Alternatively just wait until I'm going down there because I never seem to get caught out by bad conditions, so much so I didn't believe it ever got greasy!  ;)

SEDur

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Hi Pete,

Do you use the same predictors to suggest what conditions may be like at non-coastal crags?
Do you think it would work in your opinion?

Cheers

Gus

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Awesome Pete! you winner, cheers!!   :bow:

petejh

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Hi Pete,

Do you use the same predictors to suggest what conditions may be like at non-coastal crags?
Do you think it would work in your opinion?

Cheers

I don't go to the extent of checking weatherunderground and dew point temps no, mostly because inland crags tend not to suffer the same greasiness problems as coastal cliffs. It's usually just a case of knowing if the cliff is in sun/out of sun, raining/not raining/or knowing that it doesn't matter if it's raining. I usually check the met office rain radar and cloud cover settings on the local map.

No reason why you couldnt build up a picture of what ambient condtions work best for a specific crag though - as long as there's a local weather station to get the data from. And of course the weather station is only a reference to work from, it isn't showing the actual condtions at the cliff.

I can see how building up a picture of the typical and atypical dew point/air temp gaps over a winter might help for predicting primo grit velcro condtions.

For crags that suffer condensation in otherwise good weather - e.g. Devil's Gorge and Cheedale Cornice, it would be useful to have some sort of remote link to an air temp/dew point temp sensor at the base of the cliff...

spidermonkey09

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Thats awesome, exactly what I was after, looking to go for the first time in a few weeks- thanks very much! Just out of interest, do you need a grigri per person to get out via the handrail or is it ok without?

Psyched to see what its all about.

Doylo

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It's handy to have a gri gri each. I used to clip it to the rope as I hand over hand up and it would come up with you but there is a lot of drag. In the end I just clipped a quickdraw to the rope and just manhandled the knotted the rope. Just dont fall.

spidermonkey09

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Engage trad mode- got it!

El Mocho

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Conditions have been great the last few days and tides will be good into the weekend... Lots of new stuff for you aerocap people(is that the right word? Stamina monsters/climbers like that Alex Barrows wanker) Pete's new 45m thing is awesome and just like being in Spain but with more bird shit (but less human shit)

petejh

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23 grade 8s on the crag now. Soon to be 25 with local Scot Redpath's new monster line and the extension to Specular Reflections. All two, mostly three, star routes.

Alex you'll have a great aerocrap sesh on the righthand wall - trilogy of stam 8as to onsight.

abarro81

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Don't tempt me! Supposed to be getting back into boulder mode. Certainly fat enough to not be in stam mode. How crimpy are those long 8as? Got a bit of a pulley tweak

petejh

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The Shining - hardly a crimp on it, couple by the 3rd/4th bolts on F6c'ish climbing, but apart from them it's jugs, slopers and pinches ahoy.
Shine On - same deal, hardest moves are passing 3rd/4th bolt where there's one or two crimps (not hard climbing: F6c+/7a?) then jugs, slopers, pinches for 25 metres.
Diamond Lights - don't think it's crimpy on the crux the way Pete did it - heel and long span to pinch, then 25 metres of pumpy pinches and slopers. Think Caff found a crimpier sequence on crux?

It's like anti-Malham.


spidermonkey09

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Anyone advise whether a South westerly wind tends to catch the diamond or whether it absolutely needs a North through North westerly?

petejh

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A southerly aspect might eddy-around in unpredictable ways off the little orme, especially if it has some westerly in it. It's looking quite low humidity and windy Friday-Saturday, could be decent especially if you can get an afternoon/evening sesh.

I was going to do the last section of handline (the extension that gives you an extra 30 mins) with stainless wire this season but haven't been down yet this year as have been feeling knackered with the post-rona.

spidermonkey09

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Cheers Pete, was hoping you would spot this. That's basically the same conclusion I came to about Saturday. I suspect Sunday might be greasy as sin but might be worth a gamble if there's a breeze.

Saw the handline last week, a massive improvement on when I last went in 2015; cheers!

Is there a new guide to the Limestone in the works by anyone? Seems to be a lot of new routes down there since your guide!

petejh

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Andy B’s busy at work on an updated edition of NWL. It should be out next year. I’m not involved this time, last time broke me.

spidermonkey09

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Andy B’s busy at work on an updated edition of NWL. It should be out next year. I’m not involved this time, last time broke me.

Great news. Looks like the crag is almost fully worked through now bar a few of the old hard projects (The 9a Dyer bolted?)?

petejh

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Yeah the 9a Dyer proj; another 9a proj direct start into Diamond Dogs that Pete Robins had been trying a few years ago; the 40m 'Whale Mouth' proj that Dave Redpath bolted; and maybe one or two other things. Needs the attention of a maritime 9a wad.. 

 

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