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Training Fingers Individually (Read 12518 times)

mctrials23

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Training Fingers Individually
August 05, 2015, 10:44:04 pm
I was listening to a podcast on trainingbeta and they have a guy on there by the name of adam macke. I always find it quite interesting to hear the opinion of climbers who have come to the sport from other backgrounds as they quite often train in different ways to the accepted norms. This may be a bad thing or it may open the sport up to more diverse and useful training methods.

One of the things that he advocated was training each finger on its own. It kind of makes sense as you can push each finger to the max without another finger compensating for it. I had a go earlier today at this and apart from taking quite a long time due to the faffing about with weights, it seems quite good. You can obviously see the progression of each finger on its own as well as opposed to saying "my front 3 are 10% stronger", you can say "my ring finger is 18% stronger, my index is 14% stronger.."

Is there any reason why this method is considered pointless or is it just easier to train groups of fingers together and there is no benefit to doing it any other way. I guess the other reason might be that you tend to climb with back 2, front 3, all 4 rather than single fingers so it might not translate quite so well if you train them separately.

Part of the attraction of this is that if I have a finger injury I can ignore that finger without having to ease off on the others.

Thoughts?


abarro81

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#1 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 05, 2015, 10:53:48 pm
The beastmaker guys seem psyched on breaking grips down in this manner. The downside to my mind is that training individual fingers if often tweaky, thus meaning increased risk of injury or risk of not trying as hard - if I'm on back 2 on a small hold or trying pinky monos or something I wont dig deep in the same way as if I'm dragging nicely on f3 as I'll release if it feels sketchy, which it usually does.

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#2 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 05, 2015, 10:59:43 pm
I've tried this when I've been injured in the past. As Barrows says the tweakiness is a definite drawback. I felt like it put a lot of stress on the collateral ligaments because the fingers aren't supported laterally when they're separated.

mctrials23

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#3 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 05, 2015, 11:20:16 pm
The way I am doing this is using a pulley and a bleaustone 30 degree mono pocket attached to a wooden block. I don't feel like there is any particularly increased risk of injury with this system as the hold is ergonomic and just the right size.

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#4 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 02:00:38 am
I have done something similar to what you are suggesting for roughly a year.  In all honesty, the results are mixed.  Your fingers do get stronger, but the cross-over to climbing might not be as good as you would hope.  As others have suggested it is fairly hard to go 100% on a mono-pinky hang.

I do notice the cross-over in ring and finger locks since you are, in some ways, isolating the fingers in these positions.

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#5 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 02:09:08 am
I've found isolating fingers to be a very worthwhile exercise. Working the back two on small crimps appeared to greatly 'round' my grip if you get what I mean.

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#6 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 07:30:11 am
Unless you're planning on using your fingers individually, i.e. routes with umpteen different sized monos, then whats the point in training them separately? Maybe if you'd identified that you got one finger that was disproportionately weaker than the rest, but otherwise isn't it just going to take 8-10 times as long to do a training session, and potentially not be very specific to climbing?

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#7 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 08:08:57 am
If you're pulling on index and pinky monos and it doesn't feel tweaky then I'd suggest that either
a) you're very lucky and very uninjury prone, it probably doesn't matter how you train you'll get insanely strong anyway
b) you're already too strong to want to listen to most opinions on her
c) you're not actually trying very hard

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#8 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 09:29:03 am
In a paper from 1995* Köstermeyer and Weineck measured the maximal force 8 advanced climbers and 8 physically active non-climbers could sustain hanging one armed from a 20 mm deep rounded wooden edge. They compared this with the sum of the maximal force they could sustain hanging from each finger in a 20 mm deep rounded pocket (25 mm in diameter). They found that the sum of the strength of the individual fingers was 44.1% (±12%) higher than the strength of all four fingers combined. This, so called bilateral deficit, is normally around 5-15% in isometric contraction, and is generally believed to be due to reduced neural drive IIRC. (The usual example to introduce bilateral deficit is to point out that we cannot jump twice as high when using both legs)

Why they didn't measure the force of the individual fingers on the same wooden edge, I'll never know, and I suspect that explains why the deficit was so large. (Othsuki found a similar but smaller deficit for dynamic contractions in 1981† and the inhibition effect depended on both the number of fingers and which fingers was contracted {pinky and index fingers where more inhibited than middle and ring fingers}, [disclaimer: I've only read the abstract]).

In the discussion part of the paper they briefly describe a 8 week training program for individual fingers done by “one of the best climbers in Germany” at the time (it doesn't say, but I assume that this is the first author of the paper) and found a strength increase in the middle fingers was 1.35 and 1.38% per week, above the value of 1% strength gain per week Hettinger (1966) found for isometric training in untrained subjects (who should see much faster gains).

The exercises done in the 8 week program was:

1) One finger hangs, standing on a bathroom scale, hanging 10-12 s (100% effort) for 3-5 series, 3 min rest

2) Dynamic contractions with individual fingers in a sling width weights hanging from the sling. 15-20 reps, (60-70% of max strength) 3-5 series. At least 2 min rest. Fast reps.

3)  Manual resistance exercise. (This exercise sounds strange, but as far as I understand...) On your back. Sling around first phalanx of the finger. Sling attached to a rope that goes through a wheel and down to the leg. Lift your leg with the finger. As usual for manual resistance, apply more force to straighten the finger. 3-5 series, 10-12 reps, at least 3 min 

As far as I know, apart from the evidence from one athlete reported in this paper there is no other study on one finger training. But I know that a certain E. L. was interested to do a bigger study based on ideas from this paper a few years ago. Since I've heard nothing since, I assume that it has been put on ice.

Overall the Köstermeyer paper is not exactly his best, it is in German, and it is in an obscure journal and not easy to get hold of (well, except through a PM). Nevertheless since I happen to have read it as a favour to a friend of a friend I thought I should precis it here as well.

*Köstermeyer G, Weineck J. Notwendigkeit des einfingrigen Trainings der Fingerbeugemuskulatur zur Leistungssteigerung im Sportklettern. Vergleich der Kraftentwicklung bei ein- und vierfingriger Maximalkontraktion. Deutsche Zeitschrift für Sportmedizin, Jg. 46, Nr.7/8, 356-362, 1995

Othsuki T, Inhibition of individual fingers during grip strength exertion, Ergonomics, Volume 24, Issue 1, 1981

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#9 Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 09:30:06 am
Unless you're planning on using your fingers individually, i.e. routes with umpteen different sized monos, then whats the point in training them separately? Maybe if you'd identified that you got one finger that was disproportionately weaker than the rest, but otherwise isn't it just going to take 8-10 times as long to do a training session, and potentially not be very specific to climbing?

Precisely..  Does Usain bolt go one legged running?

Three Nine

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#10 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 09:39:15 am
I thought the Adam Macke podcast was a load of shit.

mctrials23

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#11 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 10:02:23 am
Interesting opinions guys, thanks for sharing!

Three nine, what did you think was shit about it exactly. Some of it I didn't agree with but there was some interesting stuff in it.

I should add that I am only training open handed as I would find it hard to do half crimp safely on single fingers. My open hand strength isn't amazing and i'm still recovering after an A2 so crimping isn't a priority for now.

My fingers and forearms certainly feel like they have had more of a workout than usual this morning. I'm going to give this 6 weeks or so to see if it works so I'll try and remember to post the results in here when I am done.

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#12 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 10:32:35 am
I can see the value in training groups of fingers (back three - back two etc..) as there are many times when you get a hold without the full contingent of digits - but as Dave said - unless you're training for Action Direct then is there any great value in training individual digits? Unless of course you want to show off doing pinky one armers - in which case it makes complete sense :)

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#13 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 10:36:47 am
If you're pulling on index and pinky monos and it doesn't feel tweaky then I'd suggest that either
a) you're very lucky and very uninjury prone, it probably doesn't matter how you train you'll get insanely strong anyway
b) you're already too strong to want to listen to most opinions on her
c) you're not actually trying very hard

+1

mctrials23

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#14 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 10:50:07 am
I can see the value in training groups of fingers (back three - back two etc..) as there are many times when you get a hold without the full contingent of digits - but as Dave said - unless you're training for Action Direct then is there any great value in training individual digits? Unless of course you want to show off doing pinky one armers - in which case it makes complete sense :)

Thats kind of making the assumption that training fingers individually would only improve your finger strength when you use them on their own to climb. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't translate to increased strength when you use 2,3, or 4 fingers. Its simply a way of training each finger to the max in a controlled manner.

Adding weight when fingerboarding doesn't feel great and removing weight and doing one arm hangs feels like I am mixing purposes as it hits the arms and shoulders so much.

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#15 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 11:25:24 am
Unless you're planning on using your fingers individually, i.e. routes with umpteen different sized monos, then whats the point in training them separately? Maybe if you'd identified that you got one finger that was disproportionately weaker than the rest, but otherwise isn't it just going to take 8-10 times as long to do a training session, and potentially not be very specific to climbing?

Precisely..  Does Usain bolt go one legged running?
You're missing the point.
One thing is strengthening the structures involved in the activity, another thing is the activity itself. Maybe Bolt does lots of one legged jumps.
We are not talking about climbing using only one finger at a time, we are talking about training one finger at a time.
I think that the main difference is made by the type of prehension you want to train.
Isolating fingers is the best way to train openhanded, because of the diffrent lenghts.
Training half crimp or full crimp is another thing... It's very likely that to be able to half crimp a mono you have to take lots of weight off and it's very dangerous, especially for the lateral stability. Training half crimp front, middle and back2 is more than enough in my experience. Adding weight.
I train middle2 half crimp on the small BM rung and the lateral forces are horrible.
Briefly: I think it's worth training normal openhanded monos - in fact I do - regardless of the chance of climbing on monos. I think it's not worth training half or full crimp monos because too tweaky and uneffective.

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#16 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 11:30:01 am
The main thing is that if you've been climbing/training for a bit i reckon you really need to be giving it some serious shit to force a strength gain. Its harder to do this with isolated fingers than it is with more fingers. Like Nible says, mono half-crimp is well iffy. Four fingers half crimp is ok.

Three Nine

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#17 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 11:32:43 am
Part of the reason there are people like Macke spouting shit like he does in that podcast, is that nobody wants to be told the boring old truth about how to get stronger for climbing - they want to hear some new and exciting bullshit.

Nibile

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#18 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 11:49:58 am
I was quite interested in the podcast but couldn't make it past the first four minutes.
If I heard another "ya know" I would have thrown the pc out of the window.
Ya know.

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#19 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 11:53:49 am
Good topic - I am an MSK physio and work with hands a lot. I am also obsessed with grip strength!

Based on available research adaptive changes to the tendons and ligaments in each finger will be the main positive to gain from individual loading. 

With that in mind changes in muscle tension may not be so positive...

1) Its important to remember that its the co-ordinated contraction of each muscle in the flexor digitorum complex which gives someone a crusher grip (think footballer hoofing a ball - the quads contract and the hammies release).  With this in mind there is a danger in neglecting the forearm extensors in static holds which could lead to imbalance and a greater chance of pulley injury and things like lateral epicondylitis

2) The other risk is creating imbalance in each muscle belly of the digitorum which again could lead to poorer co-ordination of finger flexion - this ironically would mean you are move likely to pull something when all your fingers are working together on a hold.

There is the theory but Dave said it best above.

dave

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#20 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 12:04:38 pm
Isolating fingers is the best way to train openhanded, because of the diffrent lenghts.

But unless your outdoor projects have holds that accommodate each finger having a differnt length, that allow your longer middle finger to be used in the optimal deadhanding straight position, whats the point?

I'm sure Bolt does some one-legged strength stuff but I'm sure he also does a fucking shit load of running rather than hopping. I bet he doesn't train his toes individually either.

Good knowledge from Huffy there.

mctrials23

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#21 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 12:08:48 pm
Part of the reason there are people like Macke spouting shit like he does in that podcast, is that nobody wants to be told the boring old truth about how to get stronger for climbing - they want to hear some new and exciting bullshit.

I think thats a little shortsighted really. Yes, we know how to get stronger for climbing but we don't know necessarily what the best methods are to get the best results. Most sports and their training methods are constantly evolving so I don't see why you think that we know everything about getting strong for climbing.

mctrials23

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#22 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 12:13:41 pm
Isolating fingers is the best way to train openhanded, because of the diffrent lenghts.

But unless your outdoor projects have holds that accommodate each finger having a differnt length, that allow your longer middle finger to be used in the optimal deadhanding straight position, whats the point?

I'm sure Bolt does some one-legged strength stuff but I'm sure he also does a fucking shit load of running rather than hopping. I bet he doesn't train his toes individually either.

Good knowledge from Huffy there.

I thought that finger strength has about a 20 degree arc of relevance so if you are strong on your middle finger on its own you will probably still be strong if you have to bend that a little more when open handing with middle 3 as the change in angle isn't significant.

Also, running is a very simple sport compared to climbing so the type of exercises that are effective for Bolt are unlikely to have a direct parallel for us.

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#23 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 12:18:59 pm
Isolating fingers is the best way to train openhanded, because of the diffrent lenghts.

your outdoor projects WHAT?  ;)

I bet he doesn't train his toes individually either.
Let's keep this discussion serious. What Bolt does has nothing to do with this world and with climbing specifically.
The point to me is very simple. I want my fingers to be as strong as possible for every imaginable prehension. It's clearly impossible to specifically train them for every possible hold they'll encounter, so I'll have to choose what's most useful and effective.
According to this, I train full crimp in various combinations, mainly four fingers and front2; half crimp back3; and monos.
I do this because I think that this is the best way to train the basic prehensions.
It has nothing to do with the holds I may encounter.
A strong tendon is a strong tendon, ceteris paribus.
As I say, it's just a matter of potential: there's a given hold, I simply want to become as strong as possible on that hold.
And on every other hold. Which brings us to the start of my post.
Bear in mind that this has nothing to do with "real" climbing.

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#24 Re: Training Fingers Individually
August 06, 2015, 12:19:23 pm
Part of the reason there are people like Macke spouting shit like he does in that podcast, is that nobody wants to be told the boring old truth about how to get stronger for climbing - they want to hear some new and exciting bullshit.

I think thats a little shortsighted really. Yes, we know how to get stronger for climbing but we don't know necessarily what the best methods are to get the best results. Most sports and their training methods are constantly evolving so I don't see why you think that we know everything about getting strong for climbing.

i agree with three nine.

we may not know what is best yet, but we know how to get really strong. the hardest part is executing this properly and not fooling ourselves into thinking we are strong because we can do a shit one-armer, or feel like we trained hard because we are tired afterwards.

the pitfalls of kidding ourselves we are any good, combined with treading the fine line between progress and injury are the main obstacles to progress (imho), not the lack of training fingers individually, or taking creatine, or cutting out refined carbs, etc.

 

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