[Fingers of a Martyr]

ok i'm a bit worried, for the past 6 months i've been training locks, assisted one armers, deadhangs and arms only climbing usually 5 times a week plus normal bouldering of course, probably works out to about 1 hour of the various excercises i've described above plus 1 hour of normal bouldering i.e problems per session. yet everything i read suggests against this. i have 1 day of nothing and one active rest day usually bouldering outside somewhere per week.
am i heading for a serious injury? also r there any early warning, tell tale signs of tendonitis in the elbows or anywhere else for that matter.

[SA Chris]

Personally I think you are overdoing it, but just listen to your body. Every injury I have had from climbing (except one) has been an injury caused by overtraining, and believe me it sucks. Rather climb at a slightly lower grade than have to take weeks/months off due to a tweaked tendon, knackered shoulder etc. And I wouldn't say I was particularly injury prone either.

[Bubba]

I think your training schedule is too much and asking for trouble - remember you only get stronger when you rest so you might reap greater rewards by doing less anyway.

But hey, I'm no training expert and if it's working for you and you've stayed injury free then you might be lucky or you're (as Chris says) listening to your body properly.

[squeek]

remember you only get stronger when you rest so you might reap greater rewards by doing less anyway.

You must be a beast by now!   :wink:

[Bubba]

You'd have thought so - I've been resting damn hard for about the last decade  and it's not happened yet.....hmmmm, I'd better just rest that little bit longer  

Actually, I can proudly say I've got a bit of a strained bicep from an undercut problem at the wall which means I *must* be a real boulderer.

[a dense loner]

it reads like loads but if you're training sensibly i don't think you're overdoing it. remember malc says he feels strongest on his third say on. get rid of the active rest day n you're quids in. i would also stop training locks, these are the best way to hurt yourself, possibly cut down on the one-armers as well (obviously i mean if you're doing them a couple of times a week). if not do these on your first day then just fingery stuff the second. remember there is a massive difference between training for locks or one-armers n actually pissing them to use them in a schedule. i take it you're not into your late twentys yet? let the injury's roll! :wink:

[Fingers of a Martyr]

i'm 16. also dieting at the moment and managed to lose 5 pounds in 10 days. i always feel better on my second day on for some bizzare reason. its hard to explain :? i used to take a day off before i went outside thinking it would improve my performance but it never does, so balls to that idea. i've never felt that i've done too much or had any aches or pains, not the bad sort anyway. i seriously have to force myself to take a day off. i'm bored when i'm not bouldering.
how often do u guys train or do u all just climb outside a lot.
why r locks the worst things to do? i'll stop training them as much if there the most likely excercise to cause injury. perhaps just 2 sessions of locks a week with 2 days of no locks in between wud be best?

[unclesomebody]

you're 16 and you're dieting... this sounds to me like you have some issues...

[Fingers of a Martyr]

not issues :cry: i'd call it... a burning desire to get stronger :twisted:

[unclesomebody]

he he... well, I don't think losing weight will make you stronger.  If anything, it won't make you as strong.  If you are training strength then any extra weight is good, because it will make you pull harder.  Then, when you are beastly strong you can lose 5kg's and you will be a machine!  :borg:

I weight more than just about everyone I can climb with, but I can still bust out a few one armers whenever I want... my extra weight is part of my training!  

[Bubba]

Don't diet too hard or you'll just get weaker....and be miserable....

[Nigel]

Feeling better second day on is entirely normal when you're training loads, although I don't know why.

Personally I think you might well be overtraining, in the sense that its always upper body. If you train upper body 5 days in a row then you're muscles won't actually get stronger. You will feel stronger because of what they call "neural" gains - basically getting your muscles to 'learn' how to pull hard. But your muscles strengthen by 'reconstructing' themselves better after 'breaking them down' during training. Your regime leaves no time for the 'reconstruction'. So you may well break down completely!

I reckon 2 days on, 1 day off. On your day off work body tension and go for a run to increase fitness. Body tension is way underrated, but you've gotta have it! Have a look at Gaskins on his 9a+ in the new Climber. That is the body tension to aim for. Only he has it!

I would also repeat what someone else said, which is that you'll get much stronger training conservatively for a year rather than beasting it for 9 months then having to have 3 months off and going back to square one.

[unclesomebody]

I would also repeat what someone else said, which is that you'll get much stronger training conservatively for a year rather than beasting it for 9 months then having to have 3 months off and going back to square one.

Wise words, listen to that man!

[saltbeef]

yo, I reckon you'll do yourself a mischief if you're that age training hard and dieting. (trust me I'm a doctor) Are you on summer hols or something? key is getting loads of rest, i know running is a different matter cos your tendons in your legs are far bigger than your hands etc, but i used to have a nap in the arvo if i could when i was training hard (100+miles a week) and that kept my rest topped up. maybe go running a bit to keep slim or some other aerobic exercise?

[Doylo]

i've trained like a madman like you are now and reckon its unecessary. Its true what they say about training power, quality is more important than quantity. The thing you wanna be concentrating on the most is climbing on rock as much as possible, its the best training.
In my experience people who are naturally strong are more susceptible to getting injured than naturally weak people who have had to wait years to climb hard. My mate Sam was doing one armers on crimps as he came out the womb but he's had knackered fingers for years now. On the other hand i don't think i could do a pull up till i was 18 or something and i've never had a proper injury (touch wood).

[Doylo]

oh aye and if you wanna get stronger you just have to be patient, just keep climbing and it will happen.

[AndyR]

oh aye and if you wanna get stronger you just have to be patient, just keep climbing and it will happen.

By stronger, do you mean fatter?  I've been climbing nearly 18 years now and that's all that's happened so far  

[Fingers of a Martyr]

i'd have to disagree with the diet stuff. i have seriously noticed improvement in strength since i lost the weight. couldn't hold 1 arm 90 lock for more than 5-6 seconds 2 weeks ago. held it for about 13 on monday night with each arm. also fingers feel much stronger. i know this is only cos i've lost weight. i already do weighted excercises on my pull up bars and fingerboard so i am sorting of pulling more than my natural weight a lot of the time. how much do u weigh uncle. i'm 5,11 feet high and 10,13 stone now. yeah i'm on summer hols and it sucks cos i can't drive :cry:  :cry:  :cry: . i'm gonna take a week off when i start sixth form in 4 weeks time anyway for a serious rest.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

just climbing in my opinion, i know u guys probably no better than me, will not get me stronger. but we'll see what happens. if i learn the hard way u guyz can say 'i told u so u prat'.

[a dense loner]

damn, nigel's gone back up in my estimation :evil:
seriously tho the key is to avoid injury. when you say you don't feel any better when you go outside after a rest day could this not be because you don't climb outside a lot anyway. i would not judge your outdoor performance by your indoor performance if you're only getting out once a week. i wouldn't worry too much about strength yet just get fingers of steel first. as for dieting that's not for 16 yr old's.
ps locks are bad when overtrained n the clue's in the name, the first warning signs will be on the inside of the elbow, on the forearm tendon

[saltbeef]

In reply to the original question, yeah I'm hell injury prone and i'm pretty sensible, and i'm always bloody injured. wierdly enough i had an elbow tweak earlier this year, ended up climbing solely at caley for about 6 weeks due to work placement  which made it worse (powerful slabs!) then within three weeks of solely going to the tor its improved, wierd.

[dave]

thing with dieting is if you loose weight quickly then can just as easily put it back on really quickly too - it will hapen.

put if this way, if seriously getting light was the way forward to beign strong, then why is malc now 11 stone instead of the 8stone 13 we has back in the day, yet still stronger than ever?

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=162

also:

As well as gaining strength, Malcolm knew that losing some weight would also improve his chances on the climb. He began to diet and managed to lose a stone and a half before trying his first red-point. Then taking his dieting to even further extremes, just before an attempt he would drink a lot of caffeine - which as a diuretic - contributed to even more weight loss.

He laughs now: "I wouldn't do that again, it was a bit mad actually."

And he wouldn't recommend this method, and believes that he could have done the climb without dieting though it would have taken some few months longer.

from:

http://www.scotlandonline.com/outdoors/malcolm_smith/index2.cfm

[Bubba]

Dieting is a fine line - of course you'll notice big strength gains when you lose weight fast like you are doing, but if you go too far then you'll have no energy. Firstly, simply because you need fuel in such a high power activity but secondly, and you probably know this already: hard dieting shocks the body into thinking that it has entered a period of starvation. When this happens, your body will slow your metabolism and retain fats over muscle - it's just a survival tactic that's evolved over thousands of years, but the result is that you'll waste muscle and feel tired, thus making you weaker.
And, when you start to eat again you'll put weight back on faster because of your slowed metabolic rate.

* yes, diet experts, I know this is a simplistic explaination.

I was climbing at my keenest and hardest in the 80's when over-training and hard-dieting were the norm. I used to train 4 to 5 hours almost every day and starve myself every night.  
Everyone was at it, and I mean everyone and I've lived wth some of the top boys and seen it all first hand. I've seen people go to bed early because they were so hungry they were in pain. There's a well known case of one guy having to almost be carried to the crag because he was too drained for the walk in. I've even seen mates throw up their tea when they thought they'd eaten too much.

It's all been done before and it *doesn't work*!  If we had all trained sensibly then everyone would have climbed way harder back then. The concept of rest days was alien - most people would do at least 3 days on. My body couldn't take it. Ok, I got strong and fit, but I never maximised my potential. The evidence was staring me in the face really, because when I went I had to go somewhere I couldn't climb and train for a few days, I was always mysteriously way stronger afterwards, but it didn't click  that it was rest that was doing it, so it was back to the ridiculous training regime again.

Everyone knows now in retrospect that those training methods were counter-productive, and are now considered old-skool. Yeah, you'll get better, but you won't be anywhere near as good as you could be.

[saltbeef]

malc is also quoted as saying when he first turned up in sheff and was invited to go climbing by spoon et al. that he didn't eat weather was shit for three days so didn't climb til then and then he proceeded to faint at the crag! hardcore.  wouldn't get involved with diuretics either, thay'll dry out your tendons and they'll be more likely to snap! plus you'll loose performance at a rate of about 10%, to 1% dehydrated.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

yeah i've read them both before. the interview with malcs very good. i'm on 1000 calories a day the moment. i'll get down to 10 and 1/2 and see what happens after that. i never knew hunger pains cud be so nasty though. my stomach was actually hurting on monday night. but i feel great.  not lethargic or tired on drowsy or ill. feel better than ever to tell u the truth. i read an article somewhere and the easiest way to prolong an animals life was to feed them less. brief periods of fasting r actually good for u. anyway i'm off to the bowderstone this afternoon and we'll see if my performance has improved.  since two weeks ago.  :D

yo bubbs thats just stupid in my opinion. thats asking for injury and ill health.

I was climbing at my keenest and hardest in the 80's when over-training and hard-dieting were the norm. I used to train 4 to 5 hours almost every day and starve myself every night.
Everyone was at it, and I mean everyone and I lived wth some pretty top-class boys and saw it all first hand. I've seen people go to bed early because they were so hungry they were in pain. There's a well known case of one guy having to almost be carried to the crag because he was too drained for the walk in. I've even seen mates throw up their tea when they thought they'd eaten too much.