UKBouldering.com

How specific is endurance? (Read 12921 times)

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
How specific is endurance?
July 07, 2015, 05:57:04 pm
Just curious as I'm looking to just get loads of route milage in, how specific is endurance in terms of style of route? For example; If I was to go climb loads of easy vertical walls constantly for months would I still be useless at recovering on steep ground on jugs? Just wondered if it actually transferred over much? Obviously I know specific is always best.

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of non-steep easy milage stuff locally but not anything easy, steep and juggy which is what I want to get good at for a trip. Ideally I'd just do steep stuff indoors but I can't drag myself indoors in summer.

I don't think I've ever read anything anywhere other than "Go do loads of routes" in terms of building fitness.

Cheers

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#1 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:43:37 pm
Nice one on the route! I've never really specfically trained PE as hard sections on routes are usually OK for me it's the recovery after the hard bit and the easier pumpy type climbing I'm useless on.

I've got no problem putting the time in to doing lots of routes just don't want to think I'm wasting my time on non-specifc type routes. Anyone else had an experiance with this?

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
#2 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm
Finger endurance carries over to slightly larger or smaller holds. However if the climbing is less than vertical the contraction times and loads going to be very different from steeper climbing. I don't think it would be a very good transfer.

Nibile

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7991
  • Karma: +743/-4
  • Part Animal Part Machine
    • TOTOLORE
#3 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:59:38 pm
Just curious as I'm looking to just get loads of route milage in, how specific is endurance in terms of style of route? VERY SPECIFIC. For example; If I was to go climb loads of easy vertical walls constantly for months would I still be useless at recovering on steep ground on jugs? YES, BUT YOUR CALVES WILL BE BIGGER. Just wondered if it actually transferred over much? NO. Obviously I know specific is always best. YES.

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of non-steep easy milage stuff locally but not anything easy, steep and juggy which is what I want to get good at for a trip. Ideally I'd just do steep stuff indoors but I can't drag myself indoors in summer. DO YOU WANT TO GET GOOD FOR THE TRIP, OR DON'T YOU?

Cheers. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#4 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:08:01 pm
 ;D Cheers Nibs, atleast you didn't recommed I start doing mono one armers...!

I'm not going to the wall, it's just not going to happen in the summer. I won't part with my money for it either...

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#5 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:20:33 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Nibile

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7991
  • Karma: +743/-4
  • Part Animal Part Machine
    • TOTOLORE
#6 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:21:50 pm
You don't need the wall, if you can set up a couple of jugs somewhere you're done. Even a simpe pull up bar, with some rubber wrapped around it to make it more juggy and less fingery, could do.
Put a chair on the other side, one or two feet on, and you're ready to go. You can do whatever combination you imagine. Stay put for 20", shake one arm out, shake the other, other 20", then maybe some 7/3, basically you can reproduce any sequence, endurance wise.

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1305
  • Karma: +136/-55
#7 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:28:23 pm
Worth remembering that apparent fitness, which is the only kind that actually counts, is as much about climbing/resting efficiency which is very terrain specific as it is about capiliaries and sciency shit going on in ur forearms. For example, if you find climbing a big roof scary and overgrip loads and dont know how to use your heels and toes a bit, your apparent fitness will be shit, quite irrespective of how one sort of endurance training is highly specific physiologically.

If I were off to roof stam land, and I needed to be fit, id principally train it by climbing in a roof a lot, learning to relax a ton when upside down.

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1305
  • Karma: +136/-55
#8 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:31:22 pm
When I first met Omar15 i watched him on the circuit board at UCR and I was like - this man got bare stamina. I could maybe get a third of the way round a circuit he would utterly piss. However, outdoors I was a shit ton fitter than him on routes of similar angles/lengths to that circuit. It took me a while to work out that it was cos I climbed floppy and he was all toight like a tiger.

At a guess, i'd bet that Nible could train a ton of stamina stuff for a whole year but not be very good on endurance routes.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#9 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:32:57 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Cheers Alex, that's good to know. The trip is too Ceuse, I've been once a few years ago and only climbed up to 7a on mainly the vert stuff.

Thankfully I'm naturally good on pockets strength wise, espeically middle 2 but I'm also naturally rubbish at endurance climbing (which is actually what style I like most).

You don't need the wall, if you can set up a couple of jugs somewhere you're done. Even a simpe pull up bar, with some rubber wrapped around it to make it more juggy and less fingery, could do.
Put a chair on the other side, one or two feet on, and you're ready to go. You can do whatever combination you imagine. Stay put for 20", shake one arm out, shake the other, other 20", then maybe some 7/3, basically you can reproduce any sequence, endurance wise.

Cheers Nibs, I've currently got rock rings slinged over a pull up bar in the work gym. for 20 - 25mins every day I'm not out climbing I've been sticking my feet out on something infront of me so it feels like a steep route and basicly just moving around and shaking out loads for the whole time. I'm hoping it's doing some good, again, I just wasn't sure on the non-specfic nature of doing it.

I sometimes do the same at home with a Beastmaker and a chair.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#10 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:40:32 pm
Other than cascade sector most of ceuse isn't that steep really, so, whilst 3-9's point is a good one, it doesn't apply so much here..Even cascade isn't like a steep steep venue

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
#11 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:30:21 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Cheers Alex, that's good to know. The trip is too Ceuse, I've been once a few years ago and only climbed up to 7a on mainly the vert stuff.

Thankfully I'm naturally good on pockets strength wise, espeically middle 2 but I'm also naturally rubbish at endurance climbing (which is actually what style I like most).


Sack it off and go to Chateauvert? Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO. Nice views though.

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
#12 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:37:59 pm
Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO.

Found them to be on the short side. Depends on where you climb most I guess....

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#13 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:40:26 pm
Nothing better than a tediously long and boring stam fest  :2thumbsup: Except for an even longer and boringer one.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
#14 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:09:04 pm
I think I'm still bitter from falling off eyeballing the belay on San Johns Pecos.

gme

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1805
  • Karma: +147/-6
#15 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:14:15 pm
As i am training this kind of stuff at the minute its a good question. I would have thought that pumped forearms are pumped forearms what ever the angle. Are these type of exercises, where technique is pretty much eliminated, not just getting you use to controlling the build up of lactic acid?

If so does it matter what angle you train them at?

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5778
  • Karma: +622/-36
#16 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:29:21 pm

Sack it off and go to Chateauvert? Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO. Nice views though.

They're the best tediously long and boring stam fests in the world though.
I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up. If time/partners are short you'd benefit from clipsticking up the 7bs at Llanymynech and setting up a solo top-rop and do lap after lap to learn how to relax your way upwards and rest/recover when pumped. It'll be pretty useful for ceuse 7s. Same with lapping 7s at Frogsmouth (fairly local), that would work. Ideally though you'd match the angle - gently overhanging. Laps of Red Meat and Acrophobia would be good terrain but I tried TR solo lapping these and couldn't move for fear.

Ultimately you seem to want to have fun and do some climbing whilst getting relevant fitness in the bank for ceuse. If you were a mindless automaton like me you'd just hit the indoor wall and foot-on campuss on large rungs until they kicked you out.

Nibile

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7991
  • Karma: +743/-4
  • Part Animal Part Machine
    • TOTOLORE
#17 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:32:39 pm
Pumped forearms are pumped forearms indeed, but the angle affects the recovery, in my opinion. One thing is shaking out forever while bolting your Blancos on two razor edges on slate, or while in a double kneebar; another thing is shaking out while in a roof or big overhang without tricks, where your entire body is taxed by the effort of staying put (this requiring a totally different blood flow), and where the hand that keeps holding on during the shake out is equally heavily beasted.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#18 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 06:21:19 pm
The one thing I'd love in climbing is to actually feel like I'm fit on routes. I never have, I've always been stronger than I am fit. Which is the complete opposite of what I want to be. Getting into redpointing short routes not long after I got into sport climbing probably in hindsight did me more bad than good. I never seem to build much fitness and what I do gain goes super quick.

Climbing endless pockets up some perfect limestone in Ceuse while feeling relatively fit would be amazing.

They're the best tediously long and boring stam fests in the world though.
I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up. If time/partners are short you'd benefit from clipsticking up the 7bs at Llanymynech and setting up a solo top-rop and do lap after lap to learn how to relax your way upwards and rest/recover when pumped. It'll be pretty useful for ceuse 7s. Same with lapping 7s at Frogsmouth (fairly local), that would work. Ideally though you'd match the angle - gently overhanging. Laps of Red Meat and Acrophobia would be good terrain but I tried TR solo lapping these and couldn't move for fear.

Ultimately you seem to want to have fun and do some climbing whilst getting relevant fitness in the bank for ceuse. If you were a mindless automaton like me you'd just hit the indoor wall and foot-on campuss on large rungs until they kicked you out.

Cheers Pete, yeah, I agree I'm not very relaxed, something I need to consciously work on.

I'm heading to Llanymynech tomorrow and the plan was just to do lots of routes below/around my onsight level staying in my aerobic range. I never would of thought to try and lap anything in the 7's? Especially 7b (Basically my redpoint grade) I'd of thought I'd just end up mega pumped/powered out and not manage much climbing and would end up more like a PE session?

I'd be psyched just to get up Red Meat, I think I'd be miles off lapping that any time soon going off your description of it the other day?

As much as I want to have fun climbing while getting fitness I've got time on my non-climbing days to train. When you say foot-on campus on big rungs at the wall would this be in the aerobic zone for you? I'm doing that at work every non-climbing day but on rock rings and only for 25 mins max and the odd day at home on the beastmaker. I'm definitely racking up a lot of time per week just hanging around shaking out on jugs by doing this, so hopefully that'll help.



petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5778
  • Karma: +622/-36
#19 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 06:44:46 pm
I think you could surprise yourself how quickly you can become comfortable recovering your way up stuff if you invested time lapping on a TR on those long 7bs at Llanymynech. The first time will feel the living end, then it only gets easier with that sort of thing if have 2-3 days rest between sessions. And it doesn't matter by yourself becasue there's no time pressure on belayers.

When you talk about foot-on campussing using rock rings or your beastmaker I'm never entirely clear what sort of workout you do. Foot-on campussing to me means moving up and down 4 rungs or as high as you can reach while keeping a foot on an object/chair/whatever. The exact hand sequence depends on what level of training intensity you want to achieve - from basic laddering or even matching each rung for low end aerobic endurance (on large rungs) - to, for high intensity, continuous snatching from 1-3 or 1-4 on small rungs followed by down bumping the same hand, swapping hands and repeating until forearms explode for high intensity PE with the emphasis on P. A fingerboard or rock rings can't replicate that sort of movement very well, although at a push it's a second-best option. If you're just hanging on some holds and shaking out(?) it isn't really what I'd call a foot-on campus sesh. There needs to be movement and contraction/release cycle.

If I foot-on'd the large rungs and took it slow having a shake every now and then, yeah that would be aerobic not anerobic and I could prob do it for a long time. I never do that sort of training on a campus board though - that's what autobelays and long cliffs are for.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#20 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
Cheers Pete, interesting, I thought it would take me ages to lap anything so hard (for me). At the moment I could probably lap 6c there at most. I'll probably do a big warm up and try and do something harder tomorrow then.

The thing I do on the rock rings/beastmaker is just having an object to put feet on behind them and just moving around on the holds and shaking out without getting off for 25 minutes, basicly staying aerobic the whole time. This is slightly better at home as I have a campus rung under the beastmaker but the rock ring version is insanely boring and not very varied (In work this seems like a better option than anything else in the gym).

I'm going to eventually get round to building a small campus board with about 4 or 5 rungs at home, will make this type of training easier.

blamo

Offline
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +0/-0
#21 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 07:17:19 pm
If you are struggling with relaxing you might take a look at some of the tips from Justen Sjong: http://mantlepressmedia.com/justen-sjong-climb-training/ and http://mantlepressmedia.com/justen-sjong-climb-training/ he has some good suggestions on breathing and relaxing.

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1305
  • Karma: +136/-55
#22 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 08:39:11 pm


I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up.

If its any consolation Luke, I have the opposite problem - I struggle to 'be tight' and deliver max effort over a short distance. Not just a weakness thing, its hard to explain.

duncan

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2952
  • Karma: +332/-2
#23 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 10:14:25 pm
It might be useful to consider functional endurance - how long you keep climbing before dropping off or giving up - as having two trainable elements. The muscular element - capillaries, mitochondria and so on - should be trainable in a fairly non-specific fashion. Work the muscle at 60% of its maximum or whatever for sufficiently long and you will increase the anaerobic threshold. The other element, beyond the muscle - learning how gently you can pull, controlling anxiety-arousal, optimum timing on semi-rests, recognising how much longer you can climb when utterly pumped - is very context dependent and will respond best to specific training. Contextual factors include physical ones - angle, hold types, temperature, friction, and so on - but also psychological ones like exposure, potential fall length, or performance anxiety.

Climber A (we'll call him Alex) has a lot of real-world experience on stamina plods. His beyond the muscle factors are pretty close to optimum - he knows how to milk a semi-rest - so he can get away with just training the forearm muscles in a non-specific fashion and not worry too much about the context. He can train very effectively on a bouldering wall or foot-on campusing. Eventually, if he only trained at the 'wrong' angle for long enough he'd have to do a bit of relearning.

Climber B (we'll call him Luke) is much less experienced at this sort of thing. Training will influence both his muscle physiology and all that other stuff too. Indeed the 'other stuff' may be where most of his gains are made. He needs to train in as specific a fashion as possible to his goals.

Which is a roundabout way of saying what Three Nine said.

Oh and Ceuse is great, it's the Fairhead of Sport Climbing!

Sasquatch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1984
  • Karma: +153/-1
  • www.akclimber.com
    • AkClimber
#24 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 10:25:35 pm
That is a very well put description. 

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#25 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 07, 2015, 11:36:06 pm
So, the trip went well and I thankfully felt like I had pretty decent (for me) fitness on vertical/slightly over vert ground and did the routes I wanted to do. The stamina training exclusively on non-steep ground worked well for just that.

My main aims for routes next year/going forward are all steep routes i.e. Diamond, Devils Gorge, so not roof style steep.

Following on from what I asked previously about how specific endurance training is; although I feel fitter now It really doesn't translate too a steeper angle. I've tried some steeper routes lately and I feel no better than I used to on them. I'm aware it's more than just the specific fitness that I lack in that my technique is terrible on steep ground simply because I don't climb on it enough.

Here is the dilemma I have; indoors is obviously the best place to train the steepness over winter but I have a massive problem with how much I sweat and my indoor route performance is always terrible because of it. I struggle on steep 6b's indoors (I've climbed up to 7b+ outdoors) not just down to poor steep technique I just end up massively over gripping due to greasing on everything and the whole experience isn't enjoyable and is hard to get psyched for.

Indoor bouldering is fine for me due to the short time on the wall. So I could just hit the steep problems and moon board but I feel that will just get me better at steep technique and strength but isn't specific enough to get fitter for steep routes on it's own.

Would it be worth doing the above (steep problems) and just lapping extremely easy steep routes (so I can actually chalk up enough) so I'm gaining the actual route climbing benefit?

I'm just trying to think of the best way to get better at this style without greasing off indoor routes and feeling like I'm getting nowhere with it.

For example I went to the wall yesterday and was just sweating like crazy 4 bolts into a steep easy route and greasing off, I'm pretty sure no training benefit was gained from this. At best I just about managed a long steep 6b being so pumped due to over gripping I couldn't even think about technique.

I've also tried shorts, vest and liquid chalk and I'm still a greasy mess.

Cheers

Muenchener

Online
  • *****
  • Trusted Users
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2692
  • Karma: +117/-0
#26 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 06:51:03 am
I struggle on steep 6b's indoors (I've climbed up to 7b+ outdoors)

Smaller gap for me but similar: 7a outdoors; hardest I've ever redpointed indoors is 6c and I rarely onsight 6b. I'm quite proud of being even weaker on plastic than I am on the real thing.

Paul B

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
#27 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 08:53:59 am
I think you could surprise yourself how quickly you can become comfortable recovering your way up stuff if you invested time lapping on a TR on those long 7bs at Llanymynech. The first time will feel the living end, then it only gets easier with that sort of thing if have 2-3 days rest between sessions. And it doesn't matter by yourself becasue there's no time pressure on belayers.

It was pointed out to me the other day the difference between feeling fit on something you know (Lets call climber C Paul - he has a tendency to lap routes he knows well for fear of actually trying too hard on anything), can climb efficiently etc. and actually being fit. You're very comfortable on these routes, know when a rest is coming etc.

Joking aside - since moving to Lancs. I've avoided climbing indoors almost entirely (two sessions since I moved here ~6 months ago). I've been spending lots of time at Kilnsey, mostly going for quick ticks but on the odd session where I've been tired or pushed for time I've simply lapped a load of routes I know well. With the season ending and the light fading this has increasingly been a great way to maintain/gain fitness.

I'm married to a belayer so I don't have to date a micro-traxion but when compared to foot on campussing, hanging off rock rings etc. I'd go for PeteJH's suggestion of lapping local routes in preference.

It's worth listening to 3-9 on this kind of stuff, he's frustratingly weak but manages to rest  and twist his way up things with annoying ease.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#28 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 09:33:02 am
Cheers Paul, I did a lot of lapping of routes and mileage before I went away both outdoors and indoors but only on vertical terrain. This did exactly what I thought and give me better fitness for this angle but I feel has made no difference to steep routes which I want to get better at.

I'll still be out on routes at weekends (until it's just too cold) trying the steep stuff. It's just the mid-week/mid-winter training I'm trying to figure out given the dilemma I have which I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors.

Tommy

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 814
  • Karma: +97/-1
#29 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 10:43:43 am
Physiologically you want to consider:

1. Size of hold when endurance training. We have in the most basic sense 2 main muscle beds controlling our hand contraction and this is effected by hold size - small vs big. Keep it specific as possible.

2. Contraction-relaxation timing and ratios. This plays a pretty big part in peoples' disappointment from this training in my opinion. A change from a 5:2 to 7:3 to 10:3 work rest ratio in a single arm massively effects performance. Just go an do some tests on yourself and you'll see!! Smaller differences in boulderers though.... (they basically score v similar on close ratios). Analyse what you're expecting in your chosen performance environment and replicate it in your training.

3. Familiarity with environment. This is a thing that I think 3-9 said. You spend all your time on roofs.... then you're good at them, relaxed on them and efficient. Likewise for vertical. But if you try and switch up styles you'll have difficulties unless you're a rock god like Barrows :-). Overgripping really effects performance here, as well as all the psych stuff. For most people, this is probably the biggest factor over-riding performance.

4. Upwards vs sideways. There's a cross-over but all of the above play into this. Keep it specific if you can.

Work hard and think about what you're doing and you'll be fine :-)

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5778
  • Karma: +622/-36
#30 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 11:28:40 am
I'll still be out on routes at weekends (until it's just too cold) trying the steep stuff. It's just the mid-week/mid-winter training I'm trying to figure out given the dilemma I have which I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors.

Try the new expensive high-magnesium chalk from friction labs. I used up my free sample. I think it's superior to other chalk for staying on the hand and absorbing moisture.


As you say the solution to getting better at slightly steeper stuff is to climb/train on slightly steeper stuff. The problem is finding specific terrain that's available to train on in winter.

solution 1 - you've an amazing indoor facility for training steep fitness - the psicobloc at Boardrom. Just lap that fucker. It's like long bouldering so you've less time to get shut-down by the sweat-monster but it's longer than typical bouldering and long enough to get you fit. It's almost the perfect training tool for what you want (maybe a little steep but hey ho). Ask if they'll move one of those massive space heaters to blow onto it with a cool air setting.

solution 2 - Parisellas. The choice of champions. Work and send shot-hole start, left wall, left wall high. Basically slightly over-vert 12m long french 7b+ - 8a with a roof and a cosy piss fug.


(solution 3 - steep's over-rated and injures you in the end. Forget it and climb slabs with me)

DAVETHOMAS90

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Dave Thomas is an annual climber to 1.7m, with strongly fragrant flowers
  • Posts: 1726
  • Karma: +166/-6
  • Don't die with your music still inside you ;)
#31 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 11:59:13 am
This is a great thread. Some good points there Tommy. And I especially liked Duncan's post earlier - in particular, because it wasn't number-specific.

There is always a trade off, regardless of how one trains. Effort invested in one area means less time/effort invested elsewhere. Point being that, when you fully appreciate what you have to gain by hanging in there on pumpy grease-fests, that may be motivation enough! The emphasis here is away from your specific/perceived performance in that area, and towards what you hope to gain through improvements.

I think it's a great skill to develop, to ignore the numbers, if you can. This applies to real rock of course, too.

If you want to be able to hang in there on steep ground, but find yourself flailing after 4 bolts, then the route isn't easy enough. FWIW, I love moving around on SUPER easy ground; forget the grade, and as a priority, try to really listen to what your body is telling you. This will help you in stressful situations on real rock too. Your body will let you know when/where you're weak, not the grade.

As an aside, do you have a problem with sweating at all walls, or just your local one? If it's that bad, I doubt you're really the only one who experiences that problem. In which case, getting the management to turn the heating down could be to everyone's benefit.

Quote
I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors

The question I'd most like to ask is, why do you place the emphasis on "useless". That's quite an attack on yourself! Perhaps if you were to change the emphasis here to "most to gain"/useful it would have an influence on how you deal with the sweat etc - in fact it may itself reduce the stress and sweat anyway!

Sounds like you had a good trip earlier in the year, so that will hopefully give you some added confidence that you're able to interpret and improve your training, to help reach your goals.

Schnell

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 230
  • Karma: +5/-0
#32 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 12:11:46 pm
I've also tried shorts, vest and liquid chalk and I'm still a greasy mess.

Anti-hydral? Should help with this no? (Though I don't use it myself so I don't really know whether it's most useful for reducing sweatiness or to improve skin toughness)

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#33 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 12:24:25 pm
I would say that if getting fitter on vert hasn't translated to getting fitter on moderately overhanging ground then that's indicative of the limiting factor on overhanging ground not being physiological...

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#34 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 12:26:48 pm
More generally, RE contraction times, I wonder if this is as important as any targeting of specific fibres in why harder on-off style aerocap translates well to RPing whilst lower end (slower) translates well to onsighting

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#35 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 01:20:23 pm
Cheers everyone, plenty to think about and useful info!

2. Contraction-relaxation timing and ratios. This plays a pretty big part in peoples' disappointment from this training in my opinion. A change from a 5:2 to 7:3 to 10:3 work rest ratio in a single arm massively effects performance. Just go an do some tests on yourself and you'll see!! Smaller differences in boulderers though.... (they basically score v similar on close ratios). Analyse what you're expecting in your chosen performance environment and replicate it in your training.

Never thought about this, I climb quite fast indoors to try and beat the sweat but I should try different things.

Try the new expensive high-magnesium chalk from friction labs. I used up my free sample. I think it's superior to other chalk for staying on the hand and absorbing moisture.

Did this really make a difference? Worth considering if it's not too expensive will defiently try it.

solution 1 - you've an amazing indoor facility for training steep fitness - the psicobloc at Boardrom. Just lap that fucker. It's like long bouldering so you've less time to get shut-down by the sweat-monster but it's longer than typical bouldering and long enough to get you fit. It's almost the perfect training tool for what you want (maybe a little steep but hey ho). Ask if they'll move one of those massive space heaters to blow onto it with a cool air setting.

solution 2 - Parisellas. The choice of champions. Work and send shot-hole start, left wall, left wall high. Basically slightly over-vert 12m long french 7b+ - 8a with a roof and a cosy piss fug.


(solution 3 - steep's over-rated and injures you in the end. Forget it and climb slabs with me)

I should embrace the Piscobloc I know, as you say it will be a useful tool but even on that I'm sweating loads after about 5 moves...!

Parisellas is a bit far for midweek training but will use it if I get rained off routes.

I will get out on the slate with you soon ;)

I think it's a great skill to develop, to ignore the numbers, if you can. This applies to real rock of course, too.

If you want to be able to hang in there on steep ground, but find yourself flailing after 4 bolts, then the route isn't easy enough. FWIW, I love moving around on SUPER easy ground; forget the grade, and as a priority, try to really listen to what your body is telling you. This will help you in stressful situations on real rock too. Your body will let you know when/where you're weak, not the grade.

I don't have any problem dropping the grade as all I care about when I go indoors is training and never see it as wanting to do a certain route at a certain grade etc. What I was wondering is if actually doing mega easy steep routes indoors (these don't really exist outdoors) will help me; which thinking about it it should, as it'll give me chance to work on technique.


As an aside, do you have a problem with sweating at all walls, or just your local one? If it's that bad, I doubt you're really the only one who experiences that problem. In which case, getting the management to turn the heating down could be to everyone's benefit.

I have the same problem at every wall I've ever been too, even in the middle of winter it's still too sweaty in there for me, Everyone else will be in trousers and jumpers and i'll be dressed like I'm on the beach, sweating like crazy. I've inherited sweaty hands from my Dad unfortunatly!

The question I'd most like to ask is, why do you place the emphasis on "useless". That's quite an attack on yourself! Perhaps if you were to change the emphasis here to "most to gain"/useful it would have an influence on how you deal with the sweat etc - in fact it may itself reduce the stress and sweat anyway!

Haha, It was tongue in cheek. I'm a very positve and psyched person in general so I never beat myself up over things (unless I fall off after the crux on a route at my limit  ;)). I'm never stressed when training as it is just that; "training", so anything I'm doing or failing on serves a purpose but I just like to think I'm getting the most out of my training as I hate to think I'm wasting my time.

Anti-hydral? Should help with this no? (Though I don't use it myself so I don't really know whether it's most useful for reducing sweatiness or to improve skin toughness)

I keep meaning to buy some as it's supposed to stop sweating, anyone know somewhere reliable I can get it from?

I would say that if getting fitter on vert hasn't translated to getting fitter on moderately overhanging ground then that's indicative of the limiting factor on overhanging ground not being physiological...

So, if I was good on steep ground technique wise there should be translation in some form?

Again, cheers for the replies everyone!

submaximal gains

Offline
  • **
  • player
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma: +9/-0
#36 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 08, 2015, 05:43:58 pm
Dave macleod wrote a post about sweaty hands and iontophoresis a while back, it may of some help with that part of the problem.

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/hyperhidrosis-and-climbing.html

bendavison

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 338
  • Karma: +19/-0
#37 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 09, 2015, 09:27:24 am
The CW in Sheff used to sell antihydral under the counter I think. Not sure if they still do.


Sent from the place where beasts are made using will power

Wood FT

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2951
  • Karma: +162/-8
#38 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 09, 2015, 09:49:35 am
I boought some off Ebay, I can find out the seller if you're interested Luke?

Tommy

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 814
  • Karma: +97/-1
#39 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 10, 2015, 12:07:23 pm
More generally, RE contraction times, I wonder if this is as important as any targeting of specific fibres in why harder on-off style aerocap translates well to RPing whilst lower end (slower) translates well to onsighting

No I think it'll not effect the muscle fibres employed but it will affect the blood attenuation levels and the resultant structural changes in the forearms that occur over time. Think capillarisation and whether we're working the "work" or working the "rest". It's all interesting stuff, but I don't have a full answer for it Alex. Need to read up more really.

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
#40 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 10, 2015, 12:16:26 pm
Need to read up more really.

If you find some good references please post up. I did a literature search a few months back on this and found less that I'd have liked.

Tommy

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 814
  • Karma: +97/-1
#41 Re: How specific is endurance?
October 10, 2015, 01:35:09 pm
Yup, that's exactly why it's so darn hard to get to the bottom of.... not the easiest area to research without having tonnes of spare time. If only we didn't need to sleep ;-)

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal