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How specific is endurance? (Read 12916 times)

Luke Owens

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How specific is endurance?
July 07, 2015, 05:57:04 pm
Just curious as I'm looking to just get loads of route milage in, how specific is endurance in terms of style of route? For example; If I was to go climb loads of easy vertical walls constantly for months would I still be useless at recovering on steep ground on jugs? Just wondered if it actually transferred over much? Obviously I know specific is always best.

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of non-steep easy milage stuff locally but not anything easy, steep and juggy which is what I want to get good at for a trip. Ideally I'd just do steep stuff indoors but I can't drag myself indoors in summer.

I don't think I've ever read anything anywhere other than "Go do loads of routes" in terms of building fitness.

Cheers

Luke Owens

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#1 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:43:37 pm
Nice one on the route! I've never really specfically trained PE as hard sections on routes are usually OK for me it's the recovery after the hard bit and the easier pumpy type climbing I'm useless on.

I've got no problem putting the time in to doing lots of routes just don't want to think I'm wasting my time on non-specifc type routes. Anyone else had an experiance with this?

jwi

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#2 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm
Finger endurance carries over to slightly larger or smaller holds. However if the climbing is less than vertical the contraction times and loads going to be very different from steeper climbing. I don't think it would be a very good transfer.

Nibile

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#3 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 01:59:38 pm
Just curious as I'm looking to just get loads of route milage in, how specific is endurance in terms of style of route? VERY SPECIFIC. For example; If I was to go climb loads of easy vertical walls constantly for months would I still be useless at recovering on steep ground on jugs? YES, BUT YOUR CALVES WILL BE BIGGER. Just wondered if it actually transferred over much? NO. Obviously I know specific is always best. YES.

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of non-steep easy milage stuff locally but not anything easy, steep and juggy which is what I want to get good at for a trip. Ideally I'd just do steep stuff indoors but I can't drag myself indoors in summer. DO YOU WANT TO GET GOOD FOR THE TRIP, OR DON'T YOU?

Cheers. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Luke Owens

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#4 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:08:01 pm
 ;D Cheers Nibs, atleast you didn't recommed I start doing mono one armers...!

I'm not going to the wall, it's just not going to happen in the summer. I won't part with my money for it either...

abarro81

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#5 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:20:33 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Nibile

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#6 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:21:50 pm
You don't need the wall, if you can set up a couple of jugs somewhere you're done. Even a simpe pull up bar, with some rubber wrapped around it to make it more juggy and less fingery, could do.
Put a chair on the other side, one or two feet on, and you're ready to go. You can do whatever combination you imagine. Stay put for 20", shake one arm out, shake the other, other 20", then maybe some 7/3, basically you can reproduce any sequence, endurance wise.

Three Nine

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#7 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:28:23 pm
Worth remembering that apparent fitness, which is the only kind that actually counts, is as much about climbing/resting efficiency which is very terrain specific as it is about capiliaries and sciency shit going on in ur forearms. For example, if you find climbing a big roof scary and overgrip loads and dont know how to use your heels and toes a bit, your apparent fitness will be shit, quite irrespective of how one sort of endurance training is highly specific physiologically.

If I were off to roof stam land, and I needed to be fit, id principally train it by climbing in a roof a lot, learning to relax a ton when upside down.

Three Nine

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#8 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:31:22 pm
When I first met Omar15 i watched him on the circuit board at UCR and I was like - this man got bare stamina. I could maybe get a third of the way round a circuit he would utterly piss. However, outdoors I was a shit ton fitter than him on routes of similar angles/lengths to that circuit. It took me a while to work out that it was cos I climbed floppy and he was all toight like a tiger.

At a guess, i'd bet that Nible could train a ton of stamina stuff for a whole year but not be very good on endurance routes.

Luke Owens

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#9 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:32:57 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Cheers Alex, that's good to know. The trip is too Ceuse, I've been once a few years ago and only climbed up to 7a on mainly the vert stuff.

Thankfully I'm naturally good on pockets strength wise, espeically middle 2 but I'm also naturally rubbish at endurance climbing (which is actually what style I like most).

You don't need the wall, if you can set up a couple of jugs somewhere you're done. Even a simpe pull up bar, with some rubber wrapped around it to make it more juggy and less fingery, could do.
Put a chair on the other side, one or two feet on, and you're ready to go. You can do whatever combination you imagine. Stay put for 20", shake one arm out, shake the other, other 20", then maybe some 7/3, basically you can reproduce any sequence, endurance wise.

Cheers Nibs, I've currently got rock rings slinged over a pull up bar in the work gym. for 20 - 25mins every day I'm not out climbing I've been sticking my feet out on something infront of me so it feels like a steep route and basicly just moving around and shaking out loads for the whole time. I'm hoping it's doing some good, again, I just wasn't sure on the non-specfic nature of doing it.

I sometimes do the same at home with a Beastmaker and a chair.

abarro81

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#10 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 02:40:32 pm
Other than cascade sector most of ceuse isn't that steep really, so, whilst 3-9's point is a good one, it doesn't apply so much here..Even cascade isn't like a steep steep venue

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#11 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:30:21 pm
Unlike the other two, I think that there's decent cross-over between most angles, though obviously the more specific you can be the better (contraction times more similar, other muscles (than the finger flexors) worked will be more similar plus you'll be more comfortable on those angles, you'll know better what you can recover on on that angle etc.)
Where's the trip to?

Cheers Alex, that's good to know. The trip is too Ceuse, I've been once a few years ago and only climbed up to 7a on mainly the vert stuff.

Thankfully I'm naturally good on pockets strength wise, espeically middle 2 but I'm also naturally rubbish at endurance climbing (which is actually what style I like most).


Sack it off and go to Chateauvert? Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO. Nice views though.

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#12 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:37:59 pm
Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO.

Found them to be on the short side. Depends on where you climb most I guess....

abarro81

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#13 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 03:40:26 pm
Nothing better than a tediously long and boring stam fest  :2thumbsup: Except for an even longer and boringer one.

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#14 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:09:04 pm
I think I'm still bitter from falling off eyeballing the belay on San Johns Pecos.

gme

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#15 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:14:15 pm
As i am training this kind of stuff at the minute its a good question. I would have thought that pumped forearms are pumped forearms what ever the angle. Are these type of exercises, where technique is pretty much eliminated, not just getting you use to controlling the build up of lactic acid?

If so does it matter what angle you train them at?

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#16 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:29:21 pm

Sack it off and go to Chateauvert? Seriously, those 7a+-7b Ceuse routes are tediously long and boring stam fests IMO. Nice views though.

They're the best tediously long and boring stam fests in the world though.
I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up. If time/partners are short you'd benefit from clipsticking up the 7bs at Llanymynech and setting up a solo top-rop and do lap after lap to learn how to relax your way upwards and rest/recover when pumped. It'll be pretty useful for ceuse 7s. Same with lapping 7s at Frogsmouth (fairly local), that would work. Ideally though you'd match the angle - gently overhanging. Laps of Red Meat and Acrophobia would be good terrain but I tried TR solo lapping these and couldn't move for fear.

Ultimately you seem to want to have fun and do some climbing whilst getting relevant fitness in the bank for ceuse. If you were a mindless automaton like me you'd just hit the indoor wall and foot-on campuss on large rungs until they kicked you out.

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#17 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 04:32:39 pm
Pumped forearms are pumped forearms indeed, but the angle affects the recovery, in my opinion. One thing is shaking out forever while bolting your Blancos on two razor edges on slate, or while in a double kneebar; another thing is shaking out while in a roof or big overhang without tricks, where your entire body is taxed by the effort of staying put (this requiring a totally different blood flow), and where the hand that keeps holding on during the shake out is equally heavily beasted.

Luke Owens

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#18 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 06:21:19 pm
The one thing I'd love in climbing is to actually feel like I'm fit on routes. I never have, I've always been stronger than I am fit. Which is the complete opposite of what I want to be. Getting into redpointing short routes not long after I got into sport climbing probably in hindsight did me more bad than good. I never seem to build much fitness and what I do gain goes super quick.

Climbing endless pockets up some perfect limestone in Ceuse while feeling relatively fit would be amazing.

They're the best tediously long and boring stam fests in the world though.
I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up. If time/partners are short you'd benefit from clipsticking up the 7bs at Llanymynech and setting up a solo top-rop and do lap after lap to learn how to relax your way upwards and rest/recover when pumped. It'll be pretty useful for ceuse 7s. Same with lapping 7s at Frogsmouth (fairly local), that would work. Ideally though you'd match the angle - gently overhanging. Laps of Red Meat and Acrophobia would be good terrain but I tried TR solo lapping these and couldn't move for fear.

Ultimately you seem to want to have fun and do some climbing whilst getting relevant fitness in the bank for ceuse. If you were a mindless automaton like me you'd just hit the indoor wall and foot-on campuss on large rungs until they kicked you out.

Cheers Pete, yeah, I agree I'm not very relaxed, something I need to consciously work on.

I'm heading to Llanymynech tomorrow and the plan was just to do lots of routes below/around my onsight level staying in my aerobic range. I never would of thought to try and lap anything in the 7's? Especially 7b (Basically my redpoint grade) I'd of thought I'd just end up mega pumped/powered out and not manage much climbing and would end up more like a PE session?

I'd be psyched just to get up Red Meat, I think I'd be miles off lapping that any time soon going off your description of it the other day?

As much as I want to have fun climbing while getting fitness I've got time on my non-climbing days to train. When you say foot-on campus on big rungs at the wall would this be in the aerobic zone for you? I'm doing that at work every non-climbing day but on rock rings and only for 25 mins max and the odd day at home on the beastmaker. I'm definitely racking up a lot of time per week just hanging around shaking out on jugs by doing this, so hopefully that'll help.



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#19 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 06:44:46 pm
I think you could surprise yourself how quickly you can become comfortable recovering your way up stuff if you invested time lapping on a TR on those long 7bs at Llanymynech. The first time will feel the living end, then it only gets easier with that sort of thing if have 2-3 days rest between sessions. And it doesn't matter by yourself becasue there's no time pressure on belayers.

When you talk about foot-on campussing using rock rings or your beastmaker I'm never entirely clear what sort of workout you do. Foot-on campussing to me means moving up and down 4 rungs or as high as you can reach while keeping a foot on an object/chair/whatever. The exact hand sequence depends on what level of training intensity you want to achieve - from basic laddering or even matching each rung for low end aerobic endurance (on large rungs) - to, for high intensity, continuous snatching from 1-3 or 1-4 on small rungs followed by down bumping the same hand, swapping hands and repeating until forearms explode for high intensity PE with the emphasis on P. A fingerboard or rock rings can't replicate that sort of movement very well, although at a push it's a second-best option. If you're just hanging on some holds and shaking out(?) it isn't really what I'd call a foot-on campus sesh. There needs to be movement and contraction/release cycle.

If I foot-on'd the large rungs and took it slow having a shake every now and then, yeah that would be aerobic not anerobic and I could prob do it for a long time. I never do that sort of training on a campus board though - that's what autobelays and long cliffs are for.

Luke Owens

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#20 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
Cheers Pete, interesting, I thought it would take me ages to lap anything so hard (for me). At the moment I could probably lap 6c there at most. I'll probably do a big warm up and try and do something harder tomorrow then.

The thing I do on the rock rings/beastmaker is just having an object to put feet on behind them and just moving around on the holds and shaking out without getting off for 25 minutes, basicly staying aerobic the whole time. This is slightly better at home as I have a campus rung under the beastmaker but the rock ring version is insanely boring and not very varied (In work this seems like a better option than anything else in the gym).

I'm going to eventually get round to building a small campus board with about 4 or 5 rungs at home, will make this type of training easier.

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#21 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 07:17:19 pm
If you are struggling with relaxing you might take a look at some of the tips from Justen Sjong: http://mantlepressmedia.com/justen-sjong-climb-training/ and http://mantlepressmedia.com/justen-sjong-climb-training/ he has some good suggestions on breathing and relaxing.

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#22 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 08:39:11 pm


I agree with 3-9. You're dead tight when you climb Luke (I often am too), only spending lots of time resting your way up stam-fest terrain and fanangling rests out of thin air is going to alter that ingrained boulder's tendency to tense up.

If its any consolation Luke, I have the opposite problem - I struggle to 'be tight' and deliver max effort over a short distance. Not just a weakness thing, its hard to explain.

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#23 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 10:14:25 pm
It might be useful to consider functional endurance - how long you keep climbing before dropping off or giving up - as having two trainable elements. The muscular element - capillaries, mitochondria and so on - should be trainable in a fairly non-specific fashion. Work the muscle at 60% of its maximum or whatever for sufficiently long and you will increase the anaerobic threshold. The other element, beyond the muscle - learning how gently you can pull, controlling anxiety-arousal, optimum timing on semi-rests, recognising how much longer you can climb when utterly pumped - is very context dependent and will respond best to specific training. Contextual factors include physical ones - angle, hold types, temperature, friction, and so on - but also psychological ones like exposure, potential fall length, or performance anxiety.

Climber A (we'll call him Alex) has a lot of real-world experience on stamina plods. His beyond the muscle factors are pretty close to optimum - he knows how to milk a semi-rest - so he can get away with just training the forearm muscles in a non-specific fashion and not worry too much about the context. He can train very effectively on a bouldering wall or foot-on campusing. Eventually, if he only trained at the 'wrong' angle for long enough he'd have to do a bit of relearning.

Climber B (we'll call him Luke) is much less experienced at this sort of thing. Training will influence both his muscle physiology and all that other stuff too. Indeed the 'other stuff' may be where most of his gains are made. He needs to train in as specific a fashion as possible to his goals.

Which is a roundabout way of saying what Three Nine said.

Oh and Ceuse is great, it's the Fairhead of Sport Climbing!

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#24 Re: How specific is endurance?
July 08, 2015, 10:25:35 pm
That is a very well put description. 

 

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