[Schnell]

http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/the-economics-of-training.html

Read this awhile ago and was struck by the attempt to set very specific training objectives. I wonder what people think of the targets set in the table? I'm impressed by the dedication to applying one's academic background to every sphere of activity in life displayed here.

Obvious flaws include a) the lack of a climbing grade/target for which the weights described/targets are strong 'enough.' I would have thought proper hardcore boulderers could one arm an edge for example, which isn't implied in being able to hang bodyweight x 0.8 on a 18mm edge. b) not sure why women are regarded as requiring a lesser level of strength given we all climb the same rocks and all targets are set in relation to bw anyway c) the use of mad german(?) terminology to denote strength levels, though maybe there's a reason for this.

Anyway it's a good opportunity to brag about what I can do and totally neglect to mention what I can't. So thats...
- above average (fullsterkur) for benchpress, push ups and plank (two of which are considered not that important anyway)
- average(halfsterkur) (on a good day) at pull-ups,
- below average at crimping and deadlifting
- never tried pinch strength, mid two, push press and backsquat,

Any thoughts on how the depth of holds, 18mm edge and 25mm flat pocket translate to a Beastmaker? Sounds like the small bottom rung crimps and the shallower of the two two finger pockets but I've never actually measured.

[Muenchener]

The terms are something along the lines of Icelandic/Old Norse, Steve is trying to sound all Viking & macho.

(He was on the training beta podcast recently; worth a listen)

A small campus rung is about 18mm (total thickness including the radiused bit) if that helps.

[petejh]

Economists refer to this ... as the opportunity cost of the action.  If you skip a day of work to go climbing then the opportunity cost of that day of climbing is equal to the value of what you could’ve earned at work that day.  When it comes to physical training the opportunity cost concept becomes very important due to the fact that we have a limited amount of recovery ability (let’s call this recovery capital to keep with the economics theme) that can be applied to the training session.  The opportunity cost of doing a pull-up workout for example, is the training value lost to not doing a bouldering workout.  There is always some diminishment of recovery capital every time we do some sort of high intensity exercise.  An appropriately designed training program will not eliminate the opportunity cost effect but it can work with the effect to reduce the impact on training.

Reading a bit about opportunity cost at the moment (Misbehaving, highly recommend it) and this description sounds a little vague. The opportunity cost of skipping a day's work to go climbing isn't just a day's lost pay, but the perceived 2nd best option in terms of utility out of all the millions of things that give you utility and which you had the opportunity of doing with the day, other than work or climbing.

And the opportuntiy cost of doing x workout instead of y workout is the value of the 2nd most useful workout which had to be missed in favour of the most useful workout. That's 2nd most useful in the context of knowing exactly your physical make-up and weaknesses compared to desired goals etc.

Both the above scenerios assume that the fallible human is an machine-like rational economic agent capable of quickly and accurately identifying the two most favorable options, in terms of the utility they give, out of millions of options.

Basically work your weaknesses, nothing new.

[abarro81]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

[TobyD]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

if only we were all terminators and could run a quick system diagnostic to know whether to have another redpoint or go to the pub

[TheTwig]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

if only we were all terminators and could run a quick system diagnostic to know whether to have another redpoint or go to the pub

^ this. I would love some kind of /rundiognostic function as I contemplate just one more boulder at the wall

[Schnell]

Just need to sign up with these guys: http://kitmanlabs.com/press. They've been doing well in the Irish rugby world.

[Rocksteady]

Seems to me the relative difficulty level is a bit off on bench press? 15 reps at bodyweight is pretty beast and he's got it down as average? Respect to Schnell for beast strength for beating that.

I reckon I know 2-3 people who could do 15 reps bench press at bodyweight, and they would 1RM at 2x bodyweight, which is massively hench. He's got it in the same band as 2x bodyweight 1RM deadlift. Likewise 40 press ups and 20 pull ups to me seem way easier than 15 reps at bodyweight bench?

When I was doing quite a lot of bench press (when I used to do MMA, before climbing) I think my best was 12 reps at bodyweight (75kg at the time). This equated to around 1.5x bodyweight 1RM bench press. Around that time I could also do 100 press ups. 

I guess if the benchmark he's using is athletes it's probably different - the average climber I doubt would get anywhere near this measure?

[petejh]

Also doesn't say if the pull-ups are overarm or underarm. Bit of a difference.

[Schnell]

Seems to me the relative difficulty level is a bit off on bench press? 15 reps at bodyweight is pretty beast and he's got it down as average? Respect to Schnell for beast strength for beating that.

I reckon I know 2-3 people who could do 15 reps bench press at bodyweight, and they would 1RM at 2x bodyweight, which is massively hench. He's got it in the same band as 2x bodyweight 1RM deadlift. Likewise 40 press ups and 20 pull ups to me seem way easier than 15 reps at bodyweight bench?

Hm, regarding my being surprisingly good at benchpressing, could have something to do with my bad posture and weak back, so a mixed blessing. I'm also better at doing more reps at lower weight than fewer and heavier, eg there's no way I could IRM 2xbw.

Generally I agree that the stats are a bit all over the place. He does admit they're based on limited observation. I get the impression, mostly based on listening to the trainingbeta podcasts, that lots of US climbers are more into weight lifting and such than people round these parts so possibly also skewed by that.

[Rocksteady]

Think you're right that there is more of a weight-lifting culture in US climbing - maybe because their climbing mecca is Yosemite which I think repays being physically strong all round rather than the traditional UK grit and North Wales focus, which are all about climbing skill and brutal finger strength.

Just seems to me that, just in my personal experience, I could do 20 pull ups with little or no training, could build up to 40 press ups within a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months, a few months to 2xbw deadlift, - but 15 reps at bodyweight bench press was something I never did despite doing bench press at least once a week for several years. Seems a funny idea of average!

[a dense loner]

15 reps at bodyweight average, utter nonsense! There's nothing else to say on that.

[jwi]

15 reps at bodyweight average, utter nonsense! There's nothing else to say on that.

+1
I'd pay good money like to see Sashi Amma or Adam Ondra do 15 reps of bw benches. Madness.

Who would do bench press in a general conditioning program for climbing anyway?

[spam]

I  think15x bw would be totally average if you cared at all about bench press and did it once a week for a month or two. For one of the names you dropped that's probably a whopping 50 kg... C'mon, for sure he could do it!

[Muenchener]

But why would a climber, for any climbing related reason whatsoever, care about bench pressing?

[webbo]

Big tits.

[Muenchener]

I'd accept not wanted a physique like Patxi's as a valid general argument, but it's still only related to climbing performance in a strictly negative sense.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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[tomtom]

Big tits.

There's specialist underwear for this. Or surgery of you have more cash.

[webbo]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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This is bollocks Mat, you would need your legs vertical for the weight to be similar then it would be a shoulder press. I've done body weight plus bench press in the past, however at the moment not having done any weights for months I'd be way off. But I reckon I could do 30ish press ups with out any build up most of the time.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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This is bollocks Mat, you would need your legs vertical for the weight to be similar then it would be a shoulder press. I've done body weight plus bench press in the past, however at the moment not having done any weights for months I'd be way off. But I reckon I could do 30ish press ups with out any build up most of the time.

Ah hah!
 But you are wrong! [emoji13]

No, seriously it's not. I can give you the numbers, because we have covered this at work (a body weight gym with no suitable bench).

Let me use subject 1, an 84kg male, ageing and a little flabby at the waist, as an example...

With legs raised to the gym bench (just like the ones you remember from school), his body is ~horizontal and (within a gnats taddger) 67kg of his overall weight is transferred through his arms at full extension and ~70kg at full dip.

Despite not having done any bench press for some considerable number of years, subject one was quite able to add 27kg (aka one smallish 9year old child) to his shoulders and complete 20 reps.

Subject 1's normal press up routine would be 5x20, standard position.






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[Oldmanmatt]

Just had breakfast and not in anyway warmed up...
But here's 3 as further evidence.




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[Rocksteady]

Hmmm. I don't know, when I worked part-time in a gym as a student I reckon the average was more like 6-8 reps at bodyweight.

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/tools/bench-press-calculator

This 100% scientifically accurate calculator seems to return 15 reps at bodyweight to a 1 rep max of around 1.5x bodyweight. My one rep max was 1.5x bodyweight when I could do 10-12 reps at bodyweight. Maybe I just have bad power endurance then.

Anyway, haven't bothered with bench press for years. Not sure it would give any useful transferable strength for climbing.

[a dense loner]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

[hamsforlegs]

Benchpress is one of those weird exercises that some people find natural and others struggle with. I'm reasonably strong, but have never been able to get to grips with it. I've always thought that 1.5xBW is a good 'strong enough' measure for health and general living, but I don't think it adds much to climbing.

At the end of the day the question of 'specificity' is a nonsense. Specific is climbing something. Everything else is on a spectrum from 'sort of specific' to 'totally unrelated'. You end up making vague handwaving gestures about whether a particular standard indicates a kind of general strength that can be translated to some kind of performance.

If you want to pursue that line of thinking, have a look at Dan John's work on this:
http://danjohn.net/2013/04/strength-standards-sleepless-in-seattle/
He sets out standards in lots of different movements and at various threshholds from 'basically functional', to 'high school sports' to 'game changer' (ie where someone might be capable of state or national level competitive performance.

You can get all of his standards in a spreadsheet:
danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/Strength-Standards.xlsx

He's focused more on throwing and on sports such as wrestling, 'Mercan football, but I think the whole point is that these are fairly widely applicable things for coaches to work on with athletes. Not so much a prescription but a way of spotting someone's relative strengths and weaknesses.

[webbo]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

Above is my evidence Matt, if Dense says its bullshit then it is.

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

Ok then... Official guidelines for testing pres-up fitness. Sorry, can't be bothered to scan and insert and don't have an electronic copy handy.

If you can crank out 30 press-ups in one go, a 1xBW bench press should present no problems.
It's not bullshit. If you can't do it, but you can do the 30 press-up reps, then you have an issue with your shoulders (because the principle difference is in stabilising the weight during the lift).

The fact that there are people who cannot do 15 press-ups, is irrelevant.
Especially those under 30yrs.

So, I re-iterate, IF YOU CAN CRANK OUT THE PRESS-UPS IT SHOULD BE QUITE EASY.

Surely it's too obvious to state that if you can't do a press-up (or, at least very many), then you won't do the bench press.

The numbers are accurate, try it with your bathroom scales.

As a fitness level bench mark, it is entirely achievable.

Or are we looking for the lowest common denominator here?


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[tomtom]

I think finding the lowest common denominator would be completely fitting with UKB. In fact I would expect nothing more. Literally.

[rodma]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

I'm similar for bodyweight benchpress, 4 or 5 at a push.
you can use upper arm rotation (and therefore also an element of forearm involvement) to assist in bench press, which must be what i do, cause i'm completely flat chested.

far too many factors in the way people climb/body morphology to attempt to benchmark anything other than peoples abilities at the benchmarking exercises.

I've never seen two climbers even of similar build, move/pull in exactly the same manner. you'd need an incredibly complex series of tests to try and take a stab at peoples relative climbing abilities, based solely upon these types of exercises.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well, of course, but wasn't this thread for specific and non-specific?
I thought we were discussing  reasonable, achievable, benchmarks.
Not what we can do now, but what we think is a reasonable level that we should be able to do.
I'm not the frickin Hulk.

Rodma, if you can do 5ish reps at BW now, it would take around 6 weeks to reach the 15 reps described given  a 10% week on week increase.

Dense is just plain difficult and will argue, period. [emoji12]




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[webbo]

I'm still not sure why a number of press ups as a fitness guide has any indication of whether yoy can bench press your body weight. For a start a press will use a lot more muscle groups. The whole idea of bench pressing is to isolate the muscles in the chest area.

anyhow I can piss the number of press ups for my age group. with abit of effort I could take years of my biological age.

[benno]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

[Rocksteady]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

Fully agree with this. Watch anyone who hasn't done bench press for a while and the bar wobbles all over the place, even if they're competent at press ups.

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

[Pako]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

Are you implying that you can do part of a one armer?

[Schnell]

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

Yep, I would have thought most climbers (to the extent that anyone is really interested in increasing their benching strength) would train lower reps and heavier weight to avoid bulking up. 15 is a strange number to pick.

[the_dom]

I have done a double-BW deadlift in the last 6 months and can do 15 strict pushups (which are harder than they should be), but I genuinely don't think I could do a single BW bench press. I can barely do sets of 5 at 80% of 1RM. I've also never felt like my climbing has been held back by my lack of bench press strength.

To be fair, I also can't do a one arm pullup*.

*That said, I can almost do one one on my right arm on a 2cm rung, and I haven't tried on a bar, so that statement may not be entirely accurate.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

Fully agree with this. Watch anyone who hasn't done bench press for a while and the bar wobbles all over the place, even if they're competent at press ups.

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

This is very true. I'm not suggesting that "anyone can do 15 x BW bench press" off the bat.
And I'm sorry if it appeared that way. (And I was merely agreeing with a earlier post).
I mean, it is a realistic and achievable goal. The more so for those competent at press ups.

We commonly use the rings to achieve that "roller skate" effect.  Put your feet on the bench and hands on rings, and the opposite.

But most crucially, these exercises are not done in isolation.  Dips (on bars and on the rings), varying arm/hand position for different styles of press-up and on and on etc etc...

Again, are we talking about a reasonable, achievable, standard; ie one which most people could reach without unreasonable effort, or are we asking "what can most people do"?
Because if it's the later, then Dense is right, if the former the Spam is perfectly justified in supporting Rocksteady's position, which corresponds to my stance.

If you can't do 15xBW BP now, could you do it with a few weeks effort?
If you wanted or cared.

This has no bearing on climbing ability. I don't think anyone claimed it did. I suspect it would not harm that ability, though...


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[rodma]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

Are you implying that you can do part of a one armer?

Yes, I can do what a lot of people would describe as a one-armer, but that does not constitute a one-armer in mine, or anyone that isn't a fantasist's mind. if you have to bob your chin, you're just doing a strong lock off :D

Well, of course, but wasn't this thread for specific and non-specific?

Rodma, if you can do 5ish reps at BW now, it would take around 6 weeks to reach the 15 reps described given  a 10% week on week increase.

i see what you're saying but it's a nope on the increase from 5 to 15. it's not like my body isn't used to training or anything and i do pullups etc. as part of regular training routine, but then my pullups, i expect, are slightly different to what others count as pullups; they totally destroy me.   

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, going back to SM's tables, the average category was in the range of 10-15 reps at body weight and I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of "Joe Dirt off the street".
I find his average point for pull ups to be the questionably large value.
For instance, my one rep max should be me +~60kg, and the suggestion that upto 30 reps (i assume that's straight off, not 3x10) is merely average seems somewhat demanding.
So, he can't be thinking of Joe.

I train a lot, far more than I climb these days and I will do circa 100 pull ups in a session, but I couldn't do more than 20 in a single set. My 5 rep max at weighted pull ups is 1.25 x BW and 1.8 x BW would be me with Jorden (the guy I'm working with tonight) on my back...
 


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[jwi]

Again,

who would do bench presses in a general conditioning programme for climbing?

madness.

[Sasquatch]

Did you look at or read the Dan John article? 

He differentiates in other sports in order to help identify whether its a strength/weakness/reasonable/etc.  I think the same can be applied to climbing.  Last sunday I was out for a long day of bouldering, and I ended up doing quite a few compression problems.  Monday my Pec were really sore   Would I suggest it as a core component of a climbing training program, no.  Would I suggest it as an area of weakness for many climbers who could see benefits from a few sessions of press training per year, yes.  Especially as you get older, its good for shoulder stability and strengthening. 

[Oldmanmatt]

I would argue that the average climber certainly does need to address the Antagonist (as it is to us) and in so suggesting I'm hardly being controversial.
Amongst those I now meet daily, it is still much neglected in all but the most dedicated.
A regular regimen of Press-ups and Dips would probably cover it though, for most.

I haven't read the DJ article yet, I've been dipping in and out of the thread between clients/groups etc and just arguing with everyone on a post by post basis.... [emoji12]

I think, you need to be balanced. If you are a beast on the Pull up bar, you should be at least Demi-beast at Press-ups/Dips or you are putting yourself at increased risk of injury and long term posture and joint problems and that's not exactly radical either.

I think Steve's benchmarks make sense IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER, in terms of the Agonist/Antagonist relationship. I'm not convinced of his definition of Average (unless he is specifically referring to top level climbers).

I still maintain that 15 x BW  BP is perfectly achievable for most of us (as relatively athletic people compared to the general population), and certainly reasonable within his defined category.
But I think balance is more important than absolute achievement/levels (which Rodma seems to be, balanced I mean).

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).




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[Sasquatch]

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).

Watchu talkin bout fool....  I have to mtn bike to the boulders so they're critical to my climbing.

[rodma]

Pull up claims are so random.

I can do about 47 if  I really kip, if I go a good bit slower (but still use a little momentum to get through the flat spots) it's circa 20, but if I don't cheat at all it's 5.

It's exceptionally hard to be honest when it comes to self measurement.

Range of motion, width of grip, momentum, cheating, writhing around, popping the bar off your chest etc.

We really need a ukb meet up, with a judge present, so that we can get some semi-accurate data relevant to old crusty boulderers.

There are three versions of a "one-armer" that I've seen.
1st is the classic semi strong lock off complete with desperation pike and chin bob
2nd is the full range of motion but with serious kick off the ground, like many of the videos people have posted of their beastmaker feats.
3rd is what I like to call the lorenzo one armer, or just a one armer. You don't see too much evidence of those around.

[Oldmanmatt]

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).

Watchu talkin bout fool....  I have to mtn bike to the boulders so they're critical to my climbing.

[emoji13]


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[a dense loner]

I fully agree about randomness rodma, it's like people saying they can do loads of one arm push ups when in fact they can do none!

[Oldmanmatt]

I fully agree about randomness rodma, it's like people saying they can do loads of one arm push ups when in fact they can do none!

I had to try.

Arm out style, couple ea. very shaky.
Arm in, not even one...

But now I have a new goal in life!

Yay!


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[Nibile]

rodma, for some reason you made me LOL! Considering that it's 32 degrees, I'm at work wearing a suit and I am a walking cluster of DOMS and joint pain, that was a hard task. Thank you, although you bring back memories of when my shoulders and elbows, not only didn't hurt, but they didn't even make audible creacky sound when moving. Unlike now.
So, I decided to go back to training pulling speed and explosiveness with normal and contrast training.
As far as this specific topic goes, I would like to contribute in the least useful way possible.
IMG_1264 by Nibile, on Flickr

[andy_e]

1st is the classic semi strong lock off complete with desperation pike and chin bob

AKA the party one-armer AKA the punter's show-off...

[Oldmanmatt]

On a side note...
I've been taking year 9 groups for  PE sessions.
I am gobsmacked that 14 yearold boys cannot manage 5 press ups on even a single pull up!
The odd chin up (ish) but out of a class of 25, not one pull up.


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[tomtom]

1st is the classic semi strong lock off complete with desperation pike and chin bob

AKA the party one-armer AKA the punter's show-off...

That describes my assisted one armer method perfectly

[the_dom]

On a side note...
I've been taking year 9 groups for  PE sessions.
I am gobsmacked that 14 yearold boys cannot manage 5 press ups on even a single pull up!
The odd chin up (ish) but out of a class of 25, not one pull up.


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I couldn't do a pullup when I was 14 either.

[Oldmanmatt]

On a side note...
I've been taking year 9 groups for  PE sessions.
I am gobsmacked that 14 yearold boys cannot manage 5 press ups on even a single pull up!
The odd chin up (ish) but out of a class of 25, not one pull up.


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I couldn't do a pullup when I was 14 either.

So, when did you "develop"?

I was already heavily into climbing by that age and accidentally overheard two of my then mentors/heroes discussing my lack of upper body strength,  which prompted me into the world of pull ups on the edge of the garage roof.

How much that helped the VDiff's and Severes I was wobbling up at the time I don't know, but it changed the rest of my life...



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[the_dom]

On a side note...
I've been taking year 9 groups for  PE sessions.
I am gobsmacked that 14 yearold boys cannot manage 5 press ups on even a single pull up!
The odd chin up (ish) but out of a class of 25, not one pull up.


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I couldn't do a pullup when I was 14 either.

So, when did you "develop"?

...

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Only at about 20 or 21. When I started climbing I could do 1 pullup.