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Pre/During/Post climb nutrition (article) (Read 7227 times)

TheTwig

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Pre/During/Post climb nutrition (article)
June 24, 2015, 02:08:45 am
Quite an interesting article published on R&I for those that haven't seen it

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/nutrition-or-climbing?page=1

A few things that stood out for me: "The researchers reported that the carb/protein gel, compared to the carb-only supplement, did indeed reduce muscle damage—by 56 percent. And compared to water, the carb/protein gel reduced muscle damage by 79 percent"

I haven't read the actual study but the study design seems to be a 1500ft (yikes) simulated climb on a treadwall, varying 10-40 degree overhanging and varying in speed. How applicable to actual climbing that is who knows. I probably have climbed 1500ft over a week long cragging trip in snowdonia once  :lol: The treadwall test study was also a very small sample, like 7 climbers or something. Meh.

- Other standout was consuming the carbs/protein during exercise, and how much benefit you can get from that. Quite often even though I know better I will forget to even drink water for a few hours while training hard in the gym, let alone climbing outdoors.

" compared to a carbohydrate-only beverage, a carb/protein beverage replaces muscle energy stores 128 percent better and rebuilds muscle protein 38 percent more effectively"

Worth noting that the researcher works for/is part of(?) the company that owns a patent on 4:1 carb/protein gels, or something along those lines.



tomtom

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Would a carb/protein gel be similar in content to a biscuit and a glass of milk?

a dense loner

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Who'd have thought protein builds/repairs muscle? New one on me, anyone heard anything about that before?
I've just completed a study that shows not watching tv cuts down your electricity bill, all other things being equal.

SA Chris

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Would a carb/protein gel be similar in content to a biscuit and a glass of milk?

Or a pie and milky tea?

Denbob99

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Fairly good discussion on this happening over on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/3auehg/rock_climbing_nutrition_eating_your_way_to_better/

Also worth noting that the guy works for a company that have patented the '4:1 ratio' and produce sports drinks and food with it in.

petejh

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I don't think you can patent a ratio of 4:1. That's like me patenting the concept of dynoing from 1-4-7 on small rungs with 22cm spacing. You could patent a specific formulation of carbs/protein at that ratio and give it a name ... or like TT says just have some sweet biscuits and a glass of milk.


Anderson bro's mention the 4:1 ratio of carbs/protein as 'being known to improve the glycogen storage process', especially when consumed immediately post-workout when 'carbs are converted to muscle glycogen three times faster than normal' (1, 2)

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530986
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669937

Denbob99

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I don't think you can patent a ratio of 4:1. That's like me patenting the concept of dynoing from 1-4-7 on small rungs with 22cm spacing. You could patent a specific formulation of carbs/protein at that ratio and give it a name ... or like TT says just have some sweet biscuits and a glass of milk.


Anderson bro's mention the 4:1 ratio of carbs/protein as 'being known to improve the glycogen storage process', especially when consumed immediately post-workout when 'carbs are converted to muscle glycogen three times faster than normal' (1, 2)

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530986
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669937

My thoughts too, but at the end of the article it says

'Dr. Robert Portman is coauthor of Nutrient Timing and Hardwired for Fitness. His articles have appeared in Men’s Fitness, Velo News, Triathlete and 3/GO. Portman works with PacificHealth Labs, a company that holds patents on the 4:1 ratio. Independent studies including some published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise have substantiated the efficacy of the ratio. Products with the 4:1 ratio can be purchased at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe or pacifichealthlabs.com. A turkey sandwich also has the 4:1 ratio.'

petejh

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Interesting. Let me write this down 'both hands on rung 1, explosive movement with right or left hand to rung 4, release rung 1 and in one fluid motion make explosive movement upwards to rung 7...' (heads to patent office)

moose

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There was a whole raft of articles in the mainstream press and on keep-fit websites a few months ago on the goodness of 4:1 carb:protein recovery drinks.  IIRC the trigger was an article on chocolate milk (which has that ratio) out-performing more "scientific" recovery products - Mo Farrah swore by it (although whether that was a "special" shake, prepared by Salazar....)

Denbob99

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I don't honestly think most climbers will do enough work in a given session to fully deplete their glycogen stores.

petejh

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Why is that relevant to anything? - the 'fully deplete' bit, I mean.

The relevant point is knowing about the importance for recovery of quickly replacing whatever glycogen that you have depleted - however much glycogen that might be - and how best to achieve it with a food or drink mix.

petejh

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Ciwujia - sounds great. 23% improved endurance, wow.

... Purely coincidental that the author's company sell a Ciwujia product; as well as the recovery drinks in the table on page3 of this barely concealed infomercial.

The author makes Barrows the corrupted chalk baron look pure as driven magnesium carbonate  :ang:


Denbob99

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Why is that relevant to anything? - the 'fully deplete' bit, I mean.

The relevant point is knowing about the importance for recovery of quickly replacing whatever glycogen that you have depleted - however much glycogen that might be - and how best to achieve it with a food or drink mix.

Its my understanding that unless you're really going for it, you'll just replace your own glycogen from the massive stores in the liver. So as a climber its unlikely you'll be climbing in a glycogen depleted state and can just replenish your stores with your normal nutrition post workout without any need for patented 4:1 drinks mid-workout.

Also, yes, the author is certainly pushing products in this article. Bit shitty really.

petejh

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Why is that relevant to anything? - the 'fully deplete' bit, I mean.

The relevant point is knowing about the importance for recovery of quickly replacing whatever glycogen that you have depleted - however much glycogen that might be - and how best to achieve it with a food or drink mix.

Its my understanding that unless you're really going for it, you'll just replace your own glycogen from the massive stores in the liver. So as a climber its unlikely you'll be climbing in a glycogen depleted state and can just replenish your stores with your normal nutrition post workout without any need for patented 4:1 drinks mid-workout.

The theory may sound good, but the key bits are the definition of 'really going for it'; and the time difference resulting from just letting your body do its thing without attempting to help it by altering nutrition, versus the time to reach the same point by encouraging the biological process along just a little by eating/drinking specific things at a specific time.
Any climber who's ever had a hard training session where they've 'really gone for it' and then wanted to 'really go for it' again within a short period of time - say a typical serious training plan involving 3, 4 or 5 sessions in a week; or climbing trip with hard personal goals and a 2 days on 1 off schedule - is probably in a better position to understand the importance of efficient recovery than a theory.

I agree about the patented 4:1 drinks.

Pebblespanker

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Might not be that applicable to cragging perhaps but after a big day on the hill winter climbing or even an alpine day it's got to be worth a punt especially if considering doing anything the next day? No need to spend £20+ on fancy powders either to see if you will benefit

Sasquatch

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IIRC - It helps for both interval strength type work as well as endurance style work, both during exercise, and decreases recovery time. 


moose

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IIRC - It helps for both interval strength type work as well as endurance style work, both during exercise, and decreases recovery time.

That sounds the most applicable benefit to most salary-man / weekend warrior types (at least to this one).  My sessions are usually pretty widely spaced and I can generally get home quick enough to eat and recover overnight for the next.  The problem is the mid/late session power-fade.  Anything that gives the last RP attempt or two a higher chance of success and makes them seem less of a chore (the infamous "one more go for fitness", and the "drawer retrieval mission") seems worth considering. 

Sasquatch

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If you can recover overnight after a hard session, I need to know the secret.  I'm generally looking at 48-72 hours to recover after a workout.  There's almost no way I can perform well the day after.

moose

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My secret... is not trying very hard!  I agree for high intensity work ("limit" bouldering, RPing routes with very bouldery cruxes), I am definitely sub-par the day after a session.  Steadier more stamina / endurance stuff seems less affected and I can often operate well enough to tick stuff off (although "rests" might feel less restful than the day before). 

Now excuse me, must get back to browsing for recovery shake powders.  I have difficulty eating during crag days - effort suppresses my appetite.  So, regardless of whether or not these claims are well founded, it seems worth-while trying some form of carb / protein liquid lunch (it can't be worse than my current regimen of an apple and a cereal bar).

tomtom

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I take a pint of skimmed milk with me - and drink it immediately after climbing/on the way home. In my 4 week trial of two weeks with, two weeks without its hard to say if I felt any better the day after - but on balance I had less aches - and certainly felt better driving home (no energy crashes etc..).

That said - I rarely Boulder to anywhere near exhaustion and a normal session is up to two hours... I tend to quit when the dropping curve steepens.

Tommy

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Some of you might enjoy listening to this - plenty of information in there.

https://soundcloud.com/biolayne/physique-science-radio-19-dr-stuart-phillips-interview

Dr Phillips is also an interesting person to follow on social media as you can tap into some of the latest geeky research.


petejh

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Listened to that podcast with Dr Phillips. Holy crap I found Layne really difficult to listen to. Some good stuff from him and Doc Phillips nevertheless. Funnily enough I was actually eating a Quest Bar when the Quest Bar advert came up.. (have a box of them on monthly order with amazon - they're great for a convenient v.low sugar post-workout recovery food. Combined with half a banana and a glass of water it's my go-to 4:1  ;)

mrjonathanr

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Does this mean if I have a chocolate milk I'm infringing patent law?  :o

petejh

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Double infringement if you drank it after a campus sesh

moose

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Au contraire.... the combination of chocolate milk and campusing is novel, the concept of mixing the two arguably constitutes an "inventive step" (maybe with some special spin anyway - perhaps a chocolate milk dispenser on the campus board that rewards reaching rung 9 with a squirt), and the result is susceptible to useful application (making you into a well recovered beast).  So, you could patent it yourself as a new invention (well you, could if this forum didn't comprise prior public disclosure).

 

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