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Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges (Read 9782 times)

Luke Owens

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Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 12:03:32 pm
Not sure if anyone has experienced this but I've noticed I am stronger open handed than half/full crimped on edges while deadhanging, quite noticeably stronger. Yet I can't seem to "use" open hand or open crimp grip when I'm climbing.

I feel strong while hanging open handed or slightly crimped but If I try and pull up/lock off or anything other than holding a static position when I'm out on the rock it just doesn't feel secure or strong at all so I end up crimping near enough everything.

Is this just in my head and I just need to force myself to open hand holds to get used to it? I've noticed this recently more so as a route I've been trying has slopey decent size (30mm) edge and I just can't use it at all and end up using the very edge of it crimping some spikey horrible bit just to make some sort of progress.

If this size and angle edge was on a fingerboard and I was statically hanging it I know I'd have no problem, It's just actually using it and moving with it in a climbing context.

Anyone else had this problem?

Cheers
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 12:15:20 pm by Luke Owens »

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#1 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 12:18:34 pm
My guess...


If this size and angle edge was on a fingerboard and I was statically hanging it I know I'd have no problem, It's just actually using it and moving with it in a climbing context.

Start training on your board at pulling up on these edges rather than just hanging.  You'll then find that you can pull and move on such holds outside.






Luke Owens

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#2 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 12:32:49 pm
My guess...


If this size and angle edge was on a fingerboard and I was statically hanging it I know I'd have no problem, It's just actually using it and moving with it in a climbing context.

Start training on your board at pulling up on these edges rather than just hanging.  You'll then find that you can pull and move on such holds outside.

Cheers, I guess that was pretty obvious without me realising haha :slap:

I'm guessing there's something else that's making it feel hard for me maybe shoulder strength or something?

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#3 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 12:38:24 pm
I've definitely noticed this. I can hang a lot more weight in a chisel/drag finger position on the BM than in a crimp and it feels non-tweaky. People here have definitely mentioned friction due to increased skin and hold contact area being a factor. Despite the increased strength on the FB I find it doesn't translate well to climbing as I rarely use the chisel/drag grip.

I think the specific problem you mention is because of pretty basic differences between the grip types and I'm not sure there's a way around it: When moving up and off a hold in a crimped position where the hold is slightly incut (i.e. the spikey horrible bit of the hold you mention) you're able to pull in towards the wall which is important is you're trying to move quite statically or in a deep lock off. With the bigger slopey edge normal sloper provisos apply, staying low and pulling your core in etc.

As I say I've noticed the problem but can't suggest a definite solution. Maybe you could move more dynamically off the slopey edge or maybe it's a core strength thing.

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#4 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 02:45:03 pm
I have noticed this as well. I try to use open hand more since I did an A2 months ago but on the majority of problems I don't find it that useful in comparison to crimping. There isn't a lot of friction on indoor holds so you really need to bare down on them to get the force applying in a direction that won't just slip.

The other thing to be said is that the higher your body is in relation to the hold makes a difference to the merits of open hand vs crimp. Open hand works ok when you are below a hold but the higher up you move in relation to the hold, the worse it gets. The same is true of crimping but to a lesser extent.

I can hang the top shallow 3 finger pocket on the BM2000 with one arm and a few kg taken off with a pulley whereas I need to take off about 8kg to be able to half crimp the deeper bottom slot with 4 fingers. This doesn't mean that when climbing I am not much stronger when crimping.

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#5 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 03:02:48 pm
I think its because when you are deadhanging, you are right below the hold - if you try and move up past the hold - to hold it open handed you hand has to stay in the same position which limits how far up you can go (and push down). But if you are crimping - because the force is on the tips - as you move past a hold your wrist can come up and still have the same force on the hold...

Put simply - open handing small edges can be shit if you want to move/climb past them. If you're just hanging underneath them no probs..

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#6 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 03:20:22 pm
Try doing moves on slopey holds indoors rather than just hanging slopers?

Took me ages to get used to, a lot of it is technique and being able to stay under the holds and where possible move around them rather than straight past them (if that makes sense!)

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#7 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 05:26:46 pm
Anyone else had this problem?
No.   :tease:

Not sure if anyone has experienced this but I've noticed I am stronger open handed than half/full crimped on edges while deadhanging, quite noticeably stronger. Yet I can't seem to "use" open hand or open crimp grip when I'm climbing.

I feel strong while hanging open handed or slightly crimped but If I try and pull up/lock off or anything other than holding a static position when I'm out on the rock it just doesn't feel secure or strong at all so I end up crimping near enough everything.

Is this just in my head and I just need to force myself to open hand holds to get used to it? I've noticed this recently more so as a route I've been trying has slopey decent size (30mm) edge and I just can't use it at all and end up using the very edge of it crimping some spikey horrible bit just to make some sort of progress.
I'd guess its a combination of 3 (or more) things. 

Part one is likely in your head. You're used to crimping so it feels more secure, and you know how to use the associated techniques/body positions.  I find open handing takes a different style of movement/technique-It's less front on, and more body/hip shifty.  Same sort of thing Chris is saynig here:
Took me ages to get used to, a lot of it is technique and being able to stay under the holds and where possible move around them rather than straight past them (if that makes sense!)

Part two could also be mental.  Are you really trying and failing, or sort of trying and it doesn't "feel" secure so you revert to crimping prior to failure?  You've found your confidence point crimping, but since you likely use open hand less on the rock, you may not really know the failure point so it feels less secure even though it may be fine. 

Part three could be an actual strength issue.  If the two items above don't sort the issue, then a combination of core/shoulder strength could be the culprit.  As Schnell mentions, the direction of pull changes on a sloper as you really can't generate as much outward force.  As such, more of your body tension has to generate from the legs and up through the torso to the arms.  If you've got a posterior chain weakness or shoulder girdle weakness, then you'll struggle with this. 

Lastly - It could just be that the slopey crimp is shit, and the sharp little crimp edge is better.   :-\

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#8 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 05:34:13 pm
I found that to pull up into weighted deadhangs on slopers on a fingerboard it worked best if as soon as I started puling up I raised my knees then extended my legs so I am in a L-sit sort of position forcing my core to be engaged as I get into chosen locked position if you see what I mean - a real eye opener for me in terms of the role of core and made a significant difference for me in being able to hang them due to the minimised swing/movement of my body - also explained why I was relatively crap on slopers outdoors as often my core wouldn't be as engaged as when doing a fb hang

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#9 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 06:45:28 pm
I think you feel strong on an openhand grip when deadhanging, because you're actually relying more on your tendons to hang on and muscles don't play such a big part in it. It also explains why a lot of people are stronger on openhand deadhangs than in a crimped or half-crimped position, because their supportive structure (tendons and such) does most of the work. Strength gains on an openhand grip might be mostly neurological (maybe some muscular changes but not that much) which is why so many people plateau after a few weeks of hangboarding. Tendons (and other non-muscular supportive structure) can apparently adapt to exercise but those adaptations take a very long time.

Now, when climbing you actually pull more outward and you can't rely solely on your supportive structure anymore. You need to actively engage your muscles to stay on the hold -> half-crimp/crimp.

As many suggested you can improve your technique and try to stay under the hold as much as possible. Another way would be to train your openhand grip in a non-deadhang environment (think systemsboard).

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#10 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 06:52:43 pm
Quote
I think you feel strong on an openhand grip when deadhanging, because you're actually relying more on your tendons to hang on and muscles don't play such a big part in it. It also explains why a lot of people are stronger on openhand deadhangs than in a crimped or half-crimped position, because their supportive structure (tendons and such) does most of the work. Strength gains on an openhand grip might be mostly neurological (maybe some muscular changes but not that much) which is why so many people plateau after a few weeks of hangboarding. Tendons (and other non-muscular supportive structure) can apparently adapt to exercise but those adaptations take a very long time.
This is all wrong by the way.

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#11 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 07:05:27 pm
Quote
This is all wrong by the way.

Ok, maybe a full crimp would rely more on supportive structure than I stated. But otherwise, care to explain?

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#12 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 16, 2015, 11:47:04 pm
Quote
This is all wrong by the way.

Ok, maybe a full crimp would rely more on supportive structure than I stated. But otherwise, care to explain?

Just from a logical point of view, force has to be produced by a muscle, i.e. it is the structure generating the contraction. Tendons are just the anchors allowing the force to be transferred across a joint angle. The only thing changing with different grip types is the the angle of your hand/fingers on the rocks, and how much skin is in contact.

I think maybe you are getting confused with the concept of being fully relaxed on a deadhang (apart from the fingers) which is considered poor form because all of your weight is being held on the various joints and connective tissues and the muscles are not stabilizing anything.

In regards to the OP I think Sasquatch's post is right on the money. Part of it will be mental (you don't think you can move using that grip, so you won't) and part technical, part physical. Best thing to do is just try and climb open handed lots ;) When you are open-handing a hold above your head your hand will be at a different angle to open-handing something at chest-height as you change from a pulling to pushing motion (however briefly). It just needs practise

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#13 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 17, 2015, 01:27:24 am
Quote
Just from a logical point of view, force has to be produced by a muscle, i.e. it is the structure generating the contraction. Tendons are just the anchors allowing the force to be transferred across a joint angle. The only thing changing with different grip types is the the angle of your hand/fingers on the rocks, and how much skin is in contact.

Force is actually produced by muscle and tendon in concert. Read this, it's very interesting: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

From a logical point of view most of the prescribed hangboard programs don't make sense if you only look at muscles.

1. they are far too short to cause physiological muscle adaptations

A lot of training-programs prescribe a hangboard phase of 3 - 6 weeks. This is very short for muscle adaptations. No weightlifter would train a lift for 4 weeks and then stop training it because he would know that his muscles only just started to adapt to the training.

2. plateaus come pretty quickly

usually when starting a hangboard phase I see huge gains for a few workouts, but after the 10th workout or so I can't improve anymore -> those huge gains in the beginning point to neurological adaptations

3. isometrics are not great for building muscle

The muscles responsible for contracting your fingers/hands are mostly in your forearms. Climbers argue that climbing loads the fingers isometrically and therefore they should be trained with isometrics (hangs). This makes no sense if you think only stronger muscles will make you stronger. Isotonic contractions are better suited for muscle growth than isometrics, so why wouldn't you train your forearms with isotonic contractions (heavy grippers, wrist curls...)? Because it doesn't work for climbing!

Why? Because you don't train your finger tendons with those exercises. (Arguments about joint angles and such are worthless because an isotonic contraction trains all joint angles -> if you can do a 1-arm pull up you can do a 1-arm lock-off)


I think tendon-strength and other supportive-structure actually plays a huge role in how much weight you can hang.

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#14 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 17, 2015, 04:36:42 am
Quote
Just from a logical point of view, force has to be produced by a muscle, i.e. it is the structure generating the contraction. Tendons are just the anchors allowing the force to be transferred across a joint angle. The only thing changing with different grip types is the the angle of your hand/fingers on the rocks, and how much skin is in contact.

Force is actually produced by muscle and tendon in concert. Read this, it's very interesting: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

From a logical point of view most of the prescribed hangboard programs don't make sense if you only look at muscles.

1. they are far too short to cause physiological muscle adaptations

A lot of training-programs prescribe a hangboard phase of 3 - 6 weeks. This is very short for muscle adaptations. No weightlifter would train a lift for 4 weeks and then stop training it because he would know that his muscles only just started to adapt to the training.

2. plateaus come pretty quickly

usually when starting a hangboard phase I see huge gains for a few workouts, but after the 10th workout or so I can't improve anymore -> those huge gains in the beginning point to neurological adaptations

3. isometrics are not great for building muscle

The muscles responsible for contracting your fingers/hands are mostly in your forearms. Climbers argue that climbing loads the fingers isometrically and therefore they should be trained with isometrics (hangs). This makes no sense if you think only stronger muscles will make you stronger. Isotonic contractions are better suited for muscle growth than isometrics, so why wouldn't you train your forearms with isotonic contractions (heavy grippers, wrist curls...)? Because it doesn't work for climbing!

Why? Because you don't train your finger tendons with those exercises. (Arguments about joint angles and such are worthless because an isotonic contraction trains all joint angles -> if you can do a 1-arm pull up you can do a 1-arm lock-off)


I think tendon-strength and other supportive-structure actually plays a huge role in how much weight you can hang.

So to sum up, tendons still do not produce contractile force. They have a role in storing energy due to some elasticity. These are two different things... To take the running concept to climbing my imagination only supplies the scenario of plyometric style movements like campusing or dynos or something like that, even then, surely there is a vast difference in the forces acting in the 2 respective scenarios.

I think it's accepted wisdom that most of the gains from finger boarding come from neurological gains, and that any hypertrophy occurs over a much wider time-scale? Most hangboarding programs I see usually have phases of up to 10 sessions, coinciding with the plateau from the gains..what a coincidence  :lol:

I'm kind of confused as to exactly what you are arguing...first you are talking about isometrics and forearm muscles, and then tendons? In climbing the the finger/forearm units are performing isometric/static contractions, so it its accepted wisdom to train the finger/forearm system with dead hangs.

Going back to your original post, I still haven't seen a reasonable argument why one grip type relies on tendons or connective tissue more than another grip type. The exact same muscles and tendons are doing the work. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the point you are trying to make  :coffee:  :lol:

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#15 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 17, 2015, 09:45:46 am
To the OP, my personal experience:
openhanding and half or full crimping involve basically the same structures but in different ways.
First of all, while openhanding you rely more on friction, hooking the pulp of the fingers on whatever edge you have. This is why it feels good while fingerboarding - vertical load, perfect equilibrium, no dangling, etc. - but it feels precarious while actually climbing. You feel that the hook can pop off at every second.
In half or full crimp, you rely less on friction of the pulp, you are actually pushing down on the surface. Plus you can have the thumb, etc. It's less friction dependant, and therefore it feels safer.
As for being stronger openhanding, it's because the tendons work in a different way.
When openhanding, the fingers are straight, there's little pulley engagement, and the tendon works by stretching.
When crimping, the fingers are bent, there's high pulley engagement, and the tendon works by shortening.
In crimping, you have to force the fingers to remain bent, this goes through the pulleys, and when you can't crimp anymore your fingers open up and you let go of the hold.
In openhanding, you don't have to keep any bend, because the fingers are straight already. So, as long as the pulp stay hooked to the edge, you can keep pulling because the fingers are already opened up and the tendon is stretching.
If an injury occurs, while crimping you're likely to have a pulley issue, while openhanding you're likely to have a tendon issue, generally in the palm or even deeper to the elbow if it's serious. This is because you can stretch the tendon beyond its capabilities due to the position of the fingers.

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#16 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 17, 2015, 09:58:47 am
Perhaps the thread Mechanical advantage of a crimp might be worth a re-read.

My contribution to it was mainly...


Perhaps ask Steve about what was presented at the BMC injury symposium...

Quote
At the BMC injury symposium, at last, the answer to the mystery. How come some people can hang on tiny crimps but don't have amazing finger strength? I fit into this category, hang me off a campus rung and I'm nothing special, but on a 5mm razor at Ravenstor and I do OK. Its all to do with the finger pulp, the stuff between skin and bone, with studies showing strength on small holds is not dependent on strength measured in standard ways. This pulpy stuff is developed over years, basically by pulling on bits of rubbish. So there you go, forget the campusing!




They are as always with this sort of study small sample sizes so caveat emptor, but If you read the abstracts you might find them to have some potential use...

Amca AM, Vigouroux L, Aritan S, Berton E. (2012) Effect of hold depth and grip technique on maximal finger forces in rock climbing. J Sports Sci. 30(7):669-77. doi: 10.1080/02640414.2012.658845. Epub 2012 Feb 17.

The aim of this study was to understand how the commonly used climbing-specific grip techniques and hold depths influence the finger force capacities. Ten advanced climbers performed maximal voluntary force on four different hold depths (from 1 to 4 cm) and in two force directions (antero-posterior and vertical) using three grip techniques (slope, half crimp and full crimp). A specially designed platform instrumented with a 6-degrees-of-freedom (DoF) force/torque sensor was used to record force values. Results showed that the maximal vertical forces differed significantly according to the hold depth and the grip technique (ranged from 350.8 N to 575.7 N). The maximal vertical forces increased according to the hold depth but the form of this increase differed depending on grip technique. These results seemed to be more associated with finger-hold contact/interaction than with internal biomechanical factors. Similar results were revealed for antero-posterior forces (ranged from 69.9 N to 138.0 N) but, it was additionally noted that climbers have different hand-forearm posture strategies with slope and crimp grip techniques when applying antero-posterior forces. This point is important as it could influence the body position adopted during climbing according to the chosen grip technique. For trainers and designers, a polynomial regression model was proposed in order to predict the mean maximal force based on hold depth and adopted grip technique.

Quaine F, Vigouroux L, Paclet F, Colloud F. (2011) The thumb during the crimp grip. Int J Sports Med. 32(1):49-53. doi: 10.1055/s-0030-1267230. Epub 2010 Nov 17.

During rock-climbing, fingers grasp holds of various shapes with high force intensities. To ideally place the fingertips on the holds, the thumb is sometimes positioned on the nail of the index finger. This allows using the thumb as an additional actuator by exerting a supplementary force in the same direction as the index, middle, ring and little fingers. This study analysed how the forces exerted by the fingers are modified by the additional action of the thumb. The results showed that the thumb increases the resultant forces exerted on the hold. It was shown that the pathology risks of the middle, ring and little fingers were not modified in this condition. The finger force sharing was totally re-organized due to the support of the thumb. This led to the conclusion that the central nervous system organised the association of the 5 fingers. The results were discussed in regard to the established theories of the virtual fingers and the neutral line of the hand.




This one may be what Steve is talking about...

Bourne R1, Halaki M, Vanwanseele B, Clarke J. (2011) Measuring lifting forces in rock climbing: effect of hold size and fingertip structure. J Appl Biomech. 27(1):40-6.




This study investigates the hypothesis that shallow edge lifting force in high-level rock climbers is more strongly related to fingertip soft tissue anatomy than to absolute strength or strength to body mass ratio. Fifteen experienced climbers performed repeated maximal single hand lifting exercises on rectangular sandstone edges of depth 2.8, 4.3, 5.8, 7.3, and 12.5 mm while standing on a force measurement platform. Fingertip soft tissue dimensions were assessed by ultrasound imaging. Shallow edge (2.8 and 4.3 mm) lifting force, in newtons or body mass normalized, was uncorrelated with deep edge (12.5 mm) lifting force (r < .1). There was a positive correlation (r = .65) between lifting force in newtons at 2.8 mm edge depth and tip of bone to tip of finger pulp measurement (r < .37 at other edge depths). The results confirm the common perception that maximum lifting force on a deep edge ("strength") does not predict maximum force production on very shallow edges. It is suggested that increased fingertip pulp dimension or plasticity may enable increased deformation of the fingertip, increasing the skin to rock contact area on very shallow edges, and thus increase the limit of force production. The study also confirmed previous assumptions of left/right force symmetry in climbers.

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#17 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 18, 2015, 11:40:58 am
Interesting stuff there guys, thanks!

I think it's a mixture of not being used to it and not making myself to use it more. I get a lot less pumped if I do manage to use open hand more so the advantages in that respect are great. I'll try my best to stick at it more.

I do know a couple of people who open hand everything, even pretty small crimps and it's really impressive to see. Even having the ability to lock through on an open hand, I presume this takes a lot of strength to get used to but as you all say technique plays a big part in it.

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#18 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 18, 2015, 05:09:44 pm
As an ex-serial crimper, I can say there's definitely a lot of getting used to. You have to push on, even when you get that sensation of the finger about to pop (it usually doesn't).

As mentioned before, there is far less range of movement when hanging open. With a crimped position you can move really far left, right and above the hand holds and this is not the case with an open grip, you really have to be precise with the body position. That's fine if there are lots of options for hands and feet but more of a problem with harder problems/routes where there are less options to use other holds.

In reality it's unlikely that you'll be able to use open grips exclusively but it's ok to crimp sometimes! I often use an open grip whilst hanging a position and will crimp up a little when I've got moving if necessary. You'll get there eventually, you just need to make it a habit!

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#19 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 19, 2015, 04:28:56 pm
Random thought on this. 

Use your thumb.  ALOT.  theres almost always a thumbs catch of some type.  find and use ones that force your hand more open.  It's hard to describe, but it seems like having the thumb on(sort of crappy pinching) makes it easy to maintain the correct hand position on the hold, thereby making it less likely to pop off whilst moving feet/body and such. 

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#20 Re: Open Hand Grip - Slopey Edges
June 20, 2015, 10:28:28 pm
Random thought on this. 

Use your thumb.  ALOT.  theres almost always a thumbs catch of some type.  find and use ones that force your hand more open.  It's hard to describe, but it seems like having the thumb on(sort of crappy pinching) makes it easy to maintain the correct hand position on the hold, thereby making it less likely to pop off whilst moving feet/body and such.

Couldn't agree more. I think climbing indoors often makes people subconciously lazy when it comes to using thumbs. I definitely am guilty of this. Plus there's the fact that pinching often is basically a half-crimp anyway

 

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