[abarro81]

Why the fuck wouldn't you want people to know? Presumably because you think it's useful enough that you want to keep it a secret? Unless they're a comp climber that's pretty lame. Actually, even if they're a comp climber that's pretty lame.

[Stubbs]

To be fair to Stubbs I can understand where he's coming from. When there's a couple of people stood stooped out of the wind and sheep shit at almscliff and you've gotta put your shoes back on in the break in the blizzard it's hard to believe that some people take climbing seriously.
 

Is this you still trying not to be rude?

I don't know who you are referring to but I'm talking about climbers who are close friends, not those who I happen to to the same was as. And as none of them know you I'd be surprised if they'd confided secret supplement habits to you. That is unless your new price for spotting people on the Ace is that they tell you a secret.

[Three Nine]

Hold up, don't be hating on Dense's legion of junkie 8B-bouldering buddies - he's got their backs.

[Richie Crouch]

I dabbled with some creatine mono hydrate a couple on years back on top of some whey protein twice a day for a few months whilst campussing/weighted pull-up-img and weight training. It seemed to help me put on 4kg and push/pull/lift heavier weights. I felt stronger and briefly threatened to develop a chest and arms... but the extra weight counterbalanced this, so the climbing stayed the same. It did induce the good habit of drinking a lot more water whilst training though.

Having moved to Wales and just climbed all winter indoors with a massive reduction in alcohol (1-2 beers a week)/having a 90% vegan diet/working on my feet more, the resultant leanness has made a much bigger difference to climbing whilst not losing too much if any strength.

[davej]

I've used it on occasion it definitely increased the number of redpoint attempts l got.

[a dense loner]

They're nothing to do with me 3-9

[fatdoc]

Focused traing for bouldering is no longer something my body can take, however often I try the cycle of improvement to then injury is at an all time short frequency interval.

I have used creatine, whey, branch chain AAs - esp luecine etc... Extensively end of 2014/ early 15. Until injuring myself on a 8 to 13 rep max free weight regieme - caused me to bow out of Sharkathon a week early. Many trivial ramblings about my experiences on there.

My power to body weight ratio for pull pumps, lat pull downs went up dramatically. I also lost a lot of bady fat. Like needing  new trousers sort of girth loss.

Fluid retention didnt seem a problem.

My aims were general strength gains. The vast amount of bodybuilding knowledge on losing fat, and being able to control anabolic muscle mass with timing of protein shakes post work out, reduction in DOMS and having a really good diet, with severely limited alcohol really improves overall strength. In fact I'm hitting up another booze free, very low carb high protein month cycle starting on Monday.

That's for an mountain bike  endurance event in the alps ( 40,000 ft of descent in a day) and some obstacle course events back the uk later on in the year.

Back in th day I did all of the training, good and bad, that most of us that are ascertain age did in the late 80s / early 90s.

Would I employ the above method I use now to redpoint harder? Probably not. Would I eat more protein, use protein supplements with creatine in after long training sessions, probably yes. Would I not solely focus on climbing to get better at red pointing. Bit of cross training sort of stuff, yes I'd do a bit.

Have I  helped the discussion, I doubt it.

Everything in moderation, if your diet is not perfect, your sleep pattern not ideal then same as any training for any sport... Pills for breakfast isn't going to show a noticeable benefit.

However, creatine responders can, and as above is well evidenced, make very impressive gains...... Go on, give it a go and see if it helps.

[Nibile]

Oh come on guys, all this power endurance induced creatine frenzy is making you all missing the point.
The point is: take speed, climb Hubble, bask in glory for the rest of your life.
 

[Lund]

Well done everyone, interesting thread.  I didn’t realise denise knew anyone who climbed 8B for example, that changes everything.  I did know that stubbles shares my love of windy hills in proper Yorkshire.

Bickering and sarcasm aside, I’m up for some doping(*).  It won’t fix the dodgy footwork that caused me to break my nose on a volume down the wall on Wednesday, but it may mean I can get strong enough to warm up entirely on the board and avoid such mishaps in the future.

Questions of those in the know

- you say the loading phase causes all the water retention, so you skip it; what effect does skipping it have on the effectiveness of the protocol?  Would it be a better idea to cycle off it and lose the extra water then?

- If you cycle off it, to lose the water, don’t you use the benefits too (i.e. have less CP in the muscles)?  Or is it strictly a training aid to help with larger volumes in a particular training phase, with negligible peak performance effects?

- Nitro rich beetlejuice?  What’s this for?

I assume you’re all chugging whey and glutamine too... but I guess that’s off topic.

(*) it can’t be banned, as otherwise you’d have to ban red mean, yes looking at you stubbs…

[petejh]

Creatine loading:
The theory goes that instead of spending a week loading up your body's stores at 20 grams per day, you do it over a longer time period at 5 grams per day and this avoids much/all of the weight gain associated with water retention.

Timing:
Creatine has a long half-life in the body - you'll need to DYOR to find out the exact rate at which it degrades but I seem to remember 6 weeks to half-life as a rule of thumb. In practice this means you can stop taking it at the end of a strength phase (or a power phase), having benefited from increased performance during strength training, and keep the benefits for a significant time afterwards - i.e. through a peak climbing phase. Until such time you choose to restart supplementing.
Creatine improves the 1 -2 move power aspect of performance in climbing. In theory.

Beta-Alalnine:
Beta-Al is the rate-limiting substrate of a substance called Carnosine. L-Histidine is the other main substrate of Carnosine but the body can produce enough of this to not require supplemting. Your body uses Carnosine in muscles as a buffer for lactic acid acid, among other things. Therefore in theory the more Carnosine your body can produce, the better you'll be able to perform under high lactic acid conditions (yes, lactic acid isn't the bogeyman for muscle performance it once was considered but still..).
The performance aspect Beta-Al improves is high-to-mid intensity power-endurance type climbing - i.e. a sustained sequence of powerful moves.
Beta-Al has a more rapid ha;f-life than Creatine and, I think, washes out within 2-3 weeks.

High Nitrate (Beetroot juice, etc.):
The inorganic Nitrate content in concentrated beetroot juice converts within the body to Nitrite, which is a precursor of Nitric Oxide, a vasodilator. In short it improves blood-flow to muscles under resting conditions by relaxing certain blood vessels, among other effects. This improves the low-end long endurance aspect of climbing performance - think recovery on jugs following hard climbing below. In theory.
It works in one-dose. I don't think it works cumulatively i.e. you don't need to build up a store of Nitrate - not sure on this though DYOR.

The three substances complement each other well by covering different aspects of climbing fitness. In theory.


Caffeine also has a small performance benefit for low-end endurance (and mental clarity). For some, in theory.


There are reasons to be cautious about using Creatine, Beta-Al and high levels of inorganic Nitrate - taurine depletion is one related to chronic use of Beta-Al, but there are plenty other reasons to be careful. DYOR.

[a dense loner]

The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.

Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.

[Oldmanmatt]

The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.

Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.

I'm actually with you entirely on this thread Dense (yeah, I know, shocking) except the last bit.
I am now climbing AND training every day (not this week, rest week); typically  1.5-2hrs of climbing (indoor) and circa 2 + hrs of training. I take a Matrix recovery shake after the training session.
Otherwise, just a slight modification to my diet (slightly less Pizza).
Losing weight, getting stronger, still climbing like a spastic hippo on acid but improving.
Nothing else (except the Haribo and Esspresso).
Can't see me ticking "Tuppence" (which was a very real aim four years ago) but a respectable twilight grade should be obtainable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fatdoc]

That's to me the least comprehensivable post I've ever seen from Dense ever...

And what Pete said is just about my understanding on the subject, very well said.  Though I should have added...  I  Add taurine to my protien shakes for the reasons explained.

[webbo]

 So given that I spend 5 days a week at work, climb 3 or 4 times a week and drink a shed load of red wine. I'm wasting my money buying creatine, steroids and amphetamine in order to keep climbing at 7a.
Well that's a bit of ball ache, if only I'd asked your advise before starting my training.

[mrjonathanr]

I translated Dense's "do something for a living" as "have a physical job", seemed moderately more intelligible then.

The valid point being that for most of us there are limited returns from supplementation that do not compete with just getting out and doing some climbing.

Still, I've just bought 2.5kg of Hurricane XS, Tiramisu flavour was a bit tempting...

I have read that rather than loading creatine a protocol of 15mg daily for 3 weeks and getting straight into training is just as effective. Cannot recall where though, might well be T Nation.

[fatdoc]

I'd seriously go for all types of the met amphetamine ring.. What could possibly go wrong... With your knowledge... It's all gravy.

[fatdoc]

Seriously rate the hurricane XS, agree. Loading in our line of sport is useless... As said above.

[mrjonathanr]

I'd seriously go for all types of the met amphetamine ring.. What could possibly go wrong... With your knowledge... It's all gravy.

That was Tom Simpson's view...

Btw how much of the Hurricane do you consume / day Jon?

[fatdoc]

One shot, every 3 days after a training sesh.. And once again as a lunch substitute. So 4  a week mate.

[mrjonathanr]

I was expecting 2 times a day or some such, that's not v much creatine unless you're taking it more directly in OJ or something?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Can't see me ticking "Tuppence" (which was a very real aim four years ago) but a respectable twilight grade should be obtainable.

Get it done!

Ken was on Smarties, though he wouldn't tell me what colour 

                                *****

On topic, I trained with creatine for a short time about 10 years ago. I used a serum. The main effect seemed to be to increase the duration at peak output, meaning my capacity for relatively explosive work was higher.

I also used whey protein drinks as part of my recovery.

I'd say I believe I benefited significantly. This may be partly to do with having a predominantly vegetarian diet, no red meat etc.

As with all these things, RECOVERY is the most important factor. These days I can't afford the supplements, and train for lots of reasons, but my sleep is generally less than ideal. The other day, I woke up after 10 hours sleep ... and felt amazing.

 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Still, I've just bought 2.5kg of Hurricane XS, Tiramisu flavour was a bit tempting...

I have read that rather than loading creatine a protocol of 15mg daily for 3 weeks and getting straight into training is just as effective. Cannot recall where though, might well be T Nation.

So, are you fixed then? 

[Stubbs]

The main thing I think that's been overlooked is there is no need to use supplements if you stand around in a shop or sit in an office all day doing fuck all except watching how much you eat and climbing on rock 4-5 times a wk, conversely if your parents are wedged out of their minds and you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for a person or in other words a trustafarian you'll also be ok but god forbid if you do something for a living you need to make up the deficit then you can do a lot worse than creatine.

Quick tip for people that think they know things; if someone trains or climbs twice a day or more they're taking something.

You live in a strange strange world, I've heard of the Boulder bubble, didn't realise there was a Sheffield bubble too!

[fatdoc]

I was expecting 2 times a day or some such, that's not v much creatine unless you're taking it more directly in OJ or something?

That's over Three grams a day. One shot being three pills of 1000mg.

[mrjonathanr]

Ah ok I thought you were referring to a protein shake like Hurricane. 3G isn't huge but sounds about right for your build from what I've read. You probably ingest another couple of grammes in diet I guess.

DT- cheers Dave, I think so,  let's get out sometime soon. Stoney awaits ( though other crags exist too, I believe..)