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creatine use in climbing in 2015 (Read 49321 times)

Ti_pin_man

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creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 01:36:25 pm
So, I'm heading for a strength training block in the next few weeks and my local gym bunny suggested I use creatine during weights then come back off it towards the end of this training block.  6-8 weeks.  I'm not too worried about weight gain having lost a stone and a half since xmas so I dont mind a kilo or two.  I'm also not planning to preload as had been advised way back in time.  Just uping my bodys creatine in this time while weight training to increase my feeble arm / forearm strength - my forte seems to be technical climbs and balance rather than cave ugh strength.  So thought this was worth a look. 

I've been looking on here and the net and see that both Gresh and Wolfy see some improvement using small quantities during training phases of strength but despite my research I've not found much info on more detailed studies, or conclusions, for climbers specifically.  Do any of your guys know any links to stuidies of climbers recently?  hopefully not funded by the maxi muscle companies.  ;) 
OR maybe even any climbers blogs trying it?

As an experiment I might keep a diary and record how it sort of progresses if anybody is interested. 

Come on guys, slag this idea off and do what the internet forums always do.   :jab:



mark s

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#1 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 01:42:28 pm
ive tried it in the past and dont rate the stuff at all.any weight you put on is water inside the muscles which goes as soon as you stop.

it might be not what you want to hear but i wouldnt spend any money on the stuff

roddersm

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#2 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 01:46:45 pm
Think there was a recent article in climber by Gaz Parry - just skimmed it, can't remember who he was interviewing ...Eric Horst it might have been. I think he mentioned Shauna Coxey was a big advocate but might have that wrong...

Can imagine it would be pretty useful for power endurance stuff but don't you get increased water retention?

I remember trying a protein/creatine mix briefly a few years ago and was amazed at the instantaneous difference it made...but just not amazed enough to pay the price to keep using it...

Grubes

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#3 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 02:00:23 pm

Ti_pin_man

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#4 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 02:47:23 pm
the above is exactly why I poked the bees nest.  Current thinking is that low quantities of creatine each day during strength training seem currently supported.  The overload use early on is where water retention and substantial weight gain came from.  Not a protocol proposed.  That was early on in creatine research.  C'mon boys keep up. :jab:

iwasmexican

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#5 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 02:49:05 pm
Anecdotally I'd say it's great: used it twice for 8 odd week cycles whilst doing a larger volume of climbing and rings than I would otherwise. Definitely meant I climbed like crap whilst on it due to the added weight but as soon as you stop it's like taking a weight belt off.

Grubes

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#6 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 03:26:44 pm
When I did research for this for a project a few years ago. most of the information I found was heavily skeptical of the benefit of creatine for anything other than bulking up quickly or body building when you are exercising excessively.
Most articles I read suggested a change in diet to have a higher protein content is a much better choice and more protein is absorbed through general nutrition than from the drinks/shakes. However this is a few years ago now technology has moved on and most of the articles were from a dietitian point of view so could be biased

petejh

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#7 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 26, 2015, 03:34:47 pm
As an experiment I might keep a diary and record how it sort of progresses if anybody is interested. 

Come on guys, slag this idea off and do what the internet forums always do.   :jab:

Won't find me slagging it off, I use it regularly during phases of strength and power training. My routine is to start taking creatine at 5g per day 14 days prior to start of strength phase, and continue at 5g per day until the end of the power phase. No pre-load, so minimal weight gain from water-retention (still a little). I stop taking at the end of the strength phase. Half-life is long in comparison to something like Beta-Alanine (useful for PE) so your body retains good levels through a peak phase.

A bit oif a diet prior to the peak and you gain all the benefit of training heavy and climbing light. I'm light as fuck but my diet's good..

Good site for most supplements, which collates lots of studies to one place:
http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/

Nibile

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#8 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 27, 2015, 08:37:59 am
I've used it in the past and coul not notice any difference except the bloating effect, which was pretty ugly.
It could be beneficial for power endurance, but I don't know.
I wouldn't waste money on it.
If you correctly tailor your weights training on power, you'll not bulk up much at all, if weight is an important issue for you. I would take at least 6 weeks to progressively build your sessions from, let's say, 3x8 (2 weeks), to 4x8 (2 weeks), to 4x6 (2 weeks) and then start the power phase with 4x4 or even less reps.

petejh

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#9 Re: creatine use in climbing in 2015
May 27, 2015, 09:35:12 am
It could be beneficial for power endurance, but I don't know.

There's no need to be in the dark, creatine is one of the few supplements (Beta Alanine being another) for which there exists substantial and robust research evidence. Take it or leave it, but there's no requirement to guess. (excuse my sketchy tables)

(from examine.com)
Level of Evidence
A: Robust research conducted with repeated double blind clinical trials.
B: Multiple studies where at least two are double-blind and placebo controlled.
C: Single double blind study or multiple cohort studies.
D: Uncontrolled or observational studies only.


Level of
Evidence
    Effect            Magnitude of Effect Size     Scientific Consensus
     A      Muscle Creatine Content            Strong                                80%
See all 18 studies
   
Creatine supplementation is the reference compound for increasing muscular creatine levels; there is variability in this increase, however, with some nonresponders.

     A      Power Output                       Strong                                     100%
See all 65 studies
   
Creatine is the reference compound for power improvement, with numbers from one meta-analysis to assess potency being "Able to increase a 12% improvement in strength to 20% and able to increase a 12% increase in power to 26% following a training regiment using creatine monohydrate".

There does appear to be a high degree of variability, which is correlated with the amount of creatine reaching muscle tissue. There does not appear to be much difference between trained and untrained persons.

An acute study noted an increase in peak torque by 33.4% and reduction in the time to reach peak torque by 54.7%; perhaps useful as comparator.

     A         Weight                    Strong                                        100%
See all 28 studies
   
Appears to have a large effect on increasing overall weight due to water retention in persons who respond to creatine supplementation. Degree of increase is variable.

     A        Creatinine                     Notable                                        40%
See all 12 studies
   
Creatine supplementation usually increases serum creatinine levels during the loading phase (usually not maintenance) since creatinine is the breakdown product of creatine;
this is not indicative of kidney damage.

        A        Hydration                     Notable                                       100%
See all 9 studies
   
Appears to be quite notable due to the increase in water weight in skeletal muscle tissue following creatine supplementation.

            A       Anaerobic Running Capacity   Minor                                        66%
See all 19 studies
   
Appears to increase anaerobic cardiovascular capacity, not to a remarkable degree however.

           A       Lean Mass                      Minor                                            100%
See all 19 studies
   
Does appear to have inherent lean mass building properties, but a large amount of research is confounded with water weight gains (difficult to assess potency).

     A    Swimming Performance                                                         64%

See all 17 studies
   
On the whole, there is no reliable improvement in swimming performance with creatine supplementation. In the instances where it could be beneficial, a loading period (no
maintenance) is used prior to short sprint tests (50-100m for 1-3 sprints) in order to reduce time by around 2%, or prolonged swimming (400m) may have benefits in the last stretch only.


Goes on to the 'B's .....

Moo

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How come it isn't classed as a performance enhancing drug?.

Muenchener

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+1

Seems to me to be on the fine line between supplementing and doping

abarro81

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Slightly off-topic but relating to Pete's post: I use beta alanine before/during trips. When I investigated it a year or so ago, my conclusion was that whilst it seemed like consensus was that it increases carnosine, and that carnosine is a lactic buffer, it was much less clear cut as to whether it actually lead to better performance, despite what that site implies. The studies where it did well, however, typically seemed to be ones which involved an all out effort after some sort of initial work to get you tired, which is pretty relevant to climbing.

petejh

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Yep that's what I took away from examine ref Beta Alanine. The only significant performance increase is in muscle endurance tests to all-out failure, lasting 60 - 240 seconds. Very relevent to climbing. I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.

(examine)
A    Muscular Endurance Minor 100%
See all 8 studies
   
The data from the lone meta-analysis suggesting a 2.5% increase in muscular endurance during exercises between 60-240s (usually measured by time to exhaustion) seems to
be a good summation. The benefit is present, but is pretty small in magnitude.



Cue lots of people with tingly faces at the crag.

(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).

roddersm

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Does the beetroot juice work without the beta-alanine or do you use them in combination?

abarro81

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I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.
:lol:

(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).
I'm too honest. From now on people can expect shit beta, and for me to say 'na, I don't really train' when asked about anything.

Never tried beetroot juice, anyone else use it? Do you still use it Pete?

petejh

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'Nah I don't take anything...



(It's the bomb for enduro)

roddersm

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I can't believe I listened to all those training beta podcasts and even bought that Anderson bros book when all I needed was a trip to Tesco's express.

I bet Ramonet drinks it by the gallon.

Three Nine

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I took it in combination with high nitrate beetroot juice a couple years ago on the lead up to a trip to Ansteys/SW and couldn't fall off anything. Just kept recovering on holds when pumped, very annoying.
:lol:

(I think a lot of stuff like this goes on which people keep to themselves, partly out of wanting an edge so they can better burn off their mates).
I'm too honest. From now on people can expect shit beta, and for me to say 'na, I don't really train' when asked about anything.

Never tried beetroot juice, anyone else use it? Do you still use it Pete?

BJ used to, and he had the worst endurance any man has ever had. You can't afford it either.

mark s

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3 years ago there was a supplement called jack3d,that had beta alanine in it,plus some other things.it ended up getting banned. you certainly knew you had taken it.like most supplements that work,it was banned. more because them high up thought it was bad for you rather than because it had steroid like results.

webbo

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Is that the one that had an effect like speed.

mark s

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supposedly, you were meant to have 1 scoop,but 2 worked better. there is a new version of it but doubt its much good

cha1n

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I used to use creatine post-working when I used to weight train (before I started climbing) and it was the only supplement that I actually noticed a difference if I skipped it for whatever reason. Decreased DOMS massively.

moose

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3 years ago there was a supplement called jack3d,that had beta alanine in it,plus some other things.it ended up getting banned. you certainly knew you had taken it.like most supplements that work,it was banned. more because them high up thought it was bad for you rather than because it had steroid like results.

Infamous stuff to boxing fans - a fair few high profile names (Brandon  Rios, Enzo Maccarinelli, Dillian White) have served bans, all claiming that as they bought Jack3 at a sport shop, they assumed it was permitted.   Wasn't the active ingredient, Methylhexanamine, blamed for a runner in the London marathon collapsing and dying?

Ti_pin_man

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MY DIARY:  so I started adding the 'poison' this week. 

TAKING IT: only a scoop a day mixed with 500ml of water in a water bottle.  First thing in the morning when I get into the office after the ride and after a finger set.  I'm a good boy and drink 1.5 / 2 litres of water most days.

WEIGHT: 74KG
HEIGHT: 6 foot
GRADE PEAK: Several Font 7a's last year
AIM: More of the same this year and on steeper stuff not just techie climbs

TRAINING: I'm currently doing fingerboard sets 3 times a week and a couple of sets of 4x4's around looking after my daughters.  I also cycle 20 miles home from work.

Weirdly my ride home knocked 3 - 4 mins off my record time.  Whilst pleased with the timing I dont attribute it to the Creatine, just some good luck with the traffic lights and maybe a little placebo.  What I did notice after the ride is my legs felt tight, not cramps just tight, I could feel them.  I drank more and thought nothing of it.  A couple of days later I now attribute this to the creatine, this tightness, as I have gotten the same feeling after my finger sets in my arms, especially the lower arms and fingers.  Its not uncomfortable.  Just odd. 

WATER RETENTION: As for water retention, at this time I clearly haven't seen my weight change but I have notice going to the loo is a little more of a push   ;D 

SUMMARY:  Have I seen any difference, other than the one off cycling day no, and I wasn't expecting to.  Bike rides are roughly the same and finger sets feel the same.  my 2 fingers sets did seem easier but again maybe in my brain.  I can feel my muscles more consciously but other than that, nada after a couple of days use.  BUT I didnt expect to.  I have 8 weeks of strength training ahead and the real proof will be when I stop that set, stop taking them and return to 'normal' climbing.

Weekly reports to follow.

 

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