[ghisino]

Inspired by current topics, but split not to pollute them...

I trained to a suite good shape lately, and my next trip will be in late june.

One area i would like to improve is the,number of good tries i can squeeze in one day.
Right now, after warm up and beta check I have one good redpoint, on the kind of "short endurance" routes that I target.

On this good try I usually endure many more moves "in the red zone" than expected (like: 10 hard moves feeling dead pumped and close to falling).

After this try there seems to be no way I can recover to the same level of performance during the same session.

Do I need more "aerocap"?

Am I right focusing for 2 or 3 weeks on  long moderate intensity sessions (eg 400+ hand moves split into 10 to 15 routes/circuits)????

[Sasquatch]

It's possible you need a bit more warm-up...  Or to have the first go a bit less than all out, and second go All out. 

[Kingy]

Your second go after the warmup should usually be the best and, if the route is not stupidly long or hard, you should ideally have a third go in the tank, which will probably not be as good but still worth doing as a 'training burn'. I would say definitely keep working on getting a decent 2nd try attempt and it will gradually get better. Rest between 45mins and 1hr 15mins before setting off depending on whether the route is a short PE one or more endurance based. Maybe you are not resting enough? I'm sure after a summer of redpointing you will find you are getting 3 decent burns after your warmup shot.

[moose]

+1 to both of the above.  My best go is generally the 2nd after the warm-up. But a surprising number of successes have come on "draw retrieval goes", when you feel spent at the first clip, barely make it to mid-height, but keep throwing to the end. The main factor for success I have found is to rest well, around an hour if each attempt is pretty full-on. And wait for good conditions, don't waste a days efforts by being too impatient to wait ten minutes for a cloud to come over.  Also, day long endurance is, for me anyway, something built over a trip or the lime season. A winter of indoor bouldering means it always takes me a few weeks of climbing not to start off a bit wiped out by walking into Malham with a heavy rucsac!

[slackline]

wiped out by walking into Malham with a heavy rucsac!

 

[moose]

You'd believe it if you saw how thin my legs are! ImagIne Gandhi's split in two.

[TobyD]

One area i would like to improve is the,number of good tries i can squeeze in one day.

More volume in your base phase, yes, probably.

On the day, warm up, perhaps integrate more links into your 'beta check' go to get better warmed up before your redpoint. Rest as long as you need to; and get crag food which suits you sorted, and stay properly hydrated and warm enough. 

[TheTwig]

Maybe lower intensity but higher volume training at some point before you are done training and 'redpoint ready' ? Just as an example I know one reason the Andersons are so hot on ARC (especially for big walling) is getting your body used to getting absolutely drained and being able to keep going, kind of an all-day type of stamina.

With 30 min - 1 hour rests I usually can get at least 4 decent tries on a proj at my limit. Just remember it's a fine line between pushing your body to the breaking point and overtraining! (one of the best reasons for shorter, more regular sessions tbh )

[ghisino]

Thanks for the replies.

To give some context: my goal would be to improve my redpoint best - which should be easy given that I'm currently matching it in as little as 2 hrs on short bouldery routes.

BUT i only have four to five shorter trips a year (4-6 days) to sport climb on rock, which has two challenges:
1) i can't rely on adaptations that are usually built "spontaneously" over a season. I either purposely train it, or don't get it.
2) for some kind of routes, the number of tries i can fit within a week is a limiting factor, as important as my one-go fitness.

[abarro81]

2) for some kind of routes, the number of tries i can fit within a week is a limiting factor, as important as my one-go fitness.

Long stuff? Some long routes do just beat the hell out of you. The only way my 'day fitness' gets notably better is by climbing loads, unfortunately this needs lots of free days to spend out climbing, or lots of double sessions etc... so is hard to fit in if you have a job or anything

Everyone talking about how many RPs they get is a bit irrelevant unless you're comparing routes of a similar style and length. I've done short PE route on my 8th tie in of the day before; I've also tried routes where I get a decent go and then need about 6 hours before I can try again so it's max 2 goes per day

[ghisino]

Long stuff?

of course, even if for me "long" means any route that is not a sprint on 15 hard moves (or less).

the irony is that on shorter routes i can easily get more good tries in a day, but they are also less needed, unless some move is really luck-dependent or conditions are changing unpredictably. 
Once i had a very accurate hangdog/beta check, the difference is purely made by how strong i feel (actual strenght level+arousal+conditions), and multiplying short term attempts is just an exercise of 

on longer routes i usually improve more noticeably by having several redpoint laps, even in sub-optimal fitness/weather conditions, both on a conscious level (beta refinements, pacing etc) and on an unconscious one ("feel for the route").

[petejh]

There's a simple (though lengthy) indoor exercise you can use to train one more attempt fitness / session fitness. A 15 route pyramid indoors. I try to do a few of these early season to kickstart things. Simple concept: choose your top grade (make it a grade you'd normally onsight indoors 8/10 times). Then work backwards to get your start grade to make a total of 15 routes -

e.g. 5+,6a, 6a+, 6b, 6b+ ...etc... 7a, 6c+ 6c, 6b+ ...etc... 6a, 5+. (choose your own grades based on what you o/s limit is indoors)

No rest limit between routes, take as long as you want to onsight every route - important to try hard to climb clean every route. Sounds easy, and is in the lower grades, but the top 3 grades tend to feel very tiring but more the sort of deep fatigue rather than pumped. Even the easier ones on the wat down  the other side of the pyramid can feel tiring (but not pumpy).

Couple of these sessions does wonders for session/trip fitness. Hardest part is getting a partner psyched to do it with you! Takes about 2.5 hours.

[blamo]

Stupid question: do you ever warm-up on your project?  If long and pumpy is the goal, could you get on your project first go and force yourself to take at every bolt or other bolt?  This way you are rehearsing the moves while getting warm.  When I try this approach I have my belayer automatically take (this way I don't try to redpoint). 

[ghisino]

Stupid question: do you ever warm-up on your project? 

sometimes.

the classic situation where i'd do it is when i have a short but not too cruxy route, i'm short of time and not sure that nearby warmup routes are true warmups (too easy, too cruxy, etc)
It works because usually the moves on these routes are hard enough that they boil down to some very small detail, and few enough that there's no need to climb them with a particular "flow": you just need to coldly execute them, relatively fast, one after the other.

if the route is longer and i have plenty of quality moderates next door, as it is usually the case on a trip, i prefer a more classic approach. In this case i find that getting a moderate pump and focusing on getting the good pace and attitude for the easy sections of my project is more valuable than reharsing the moves bolt to bolt.
These routes do require a specific flow, sometimes it is even more important than choosing beta A or beta B on a certain move.