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Healthy Eating: The Refined Carbs Thread, Simple & Complex (Read 44852 times)

TheTwig

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Alot of really interesting research coming out in recent years on the "Is a calorie just a calorie?" topic. Research in animal models is starting to point the finger at flavour enhancers, emulsifiers, additives as well as 'modified' fats as being at least somewhat responsible for all the obesity, metabolic disorders etc. Yet another reason to eat as much unprocessed food as you can.

here's one article http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/common-food-additive-promotes-inflammatory-bowel-disease-and-obesity-mice

Will Hunt

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I would like to echo Dense's comment.

WHAT THE FUCK CAN I EAT?

There is so much disagreement around everything in this subforum that it is almost impossible not to feel confused and helpless. I have suspected for a while that my diet is not good in that it is very carb based and yet it is quite difficult to fundamentally change the way you think about food and prepare meals if you have never known anything different. It requires changes in the way you shop etc, and this can be quite difficult if your significant other is resistive to the idea that your diet needs to change.

Getting back to the original comment on confusion. I understand that I can get stronger fingers by doing lots of fingerboarding, and yet there is a whole fucking thread with people arguing about what is effective and what is ineffective. Dave McLeod recommends doing a few hangs that are at your limit (i.e. you can hold them for about 6 seconds). This seems very simple but never leaves me feeling tired and nobody on the thread seems to recommend it.  :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


Toby, your comments on salad seem to be completely wrong. All your arguments for it having no nutritional or satiety benefit are based around just eating a pile of leaves. Everybody else on the thread seems to have a fundamentally different understanding about what a salad is (i.e. a few leaves, a few boiled spuds, a bit of lean protein, lots of mixed veg etc) - i.e. if salad leaves come into it at all then they are really just a matrix for the other good stuff to sit within.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 09:05:39 am by Will Hunt »

Stubbs

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Will, you never look like you've had a problem with controlling your weight!  If you don't have an issue with this, and your diet contains enough fruit and veg to provide vitamins, etc. then why worry?  I'd say the take home thing out of this thread (and most of the diet ones) is to eat as little processed stuff as possible.

Re fingerboarding, max hangs shouldn't leave you feeling tired overall, but you should trying really really hard and basically be failing on each hang.

petejh

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Don't do that Will you'll hurt your head.

Like with most things that seem confusing, educating yourself about the subject matter is really crucial for being equipped to read/listen to opinions and make informed choices.

Or you can just get frustrated, shout 'Can I eat a fucking salad' and then, if you're really uninterested and intellectually lazy, just let the food industry dictate your choice via a combination of what's most easily available in shops/restaurant/petrol stations and what you've been convinced is a good thing through advertising. And then in 20-30-40 years look back and wonder what the fuck you were thinking by allowing a vested interest dictate to you one of the most fundamental things in life - optimum fuel for good health.

Will Hunt

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You're right, weight for me is a non-issue (though not my gf who has recently started up at spin class again in an effort to get into shape, we eat roughly the same but have different metabolisms), however my main concern is being "fat on the inside", one of the 40% who are of a healthy size but who have hypertension etc (see abstract at start of thread).

slackline

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There is so much disagreement around everything in this subforum that it is almost impossible not to feel confused and helpless.

The joy of soliciting opinions on the internet.


Like with most things that seem confusing, educating yourself about the subject matter is really crucial for being equipped to read/listen to opinions and make informed choices.

 :2thumbsup:

petejh

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I don't get the sense of confusion from this thread but that's probably because I'm already satisfied with what I think is a good diet. Not a perfect diet - like training plans there probably isn't a perfect one.

One of the reasons for starting the thread was to highlight how unhealthy refined sugar is and how prevalent it is in a typical western diet. In my opinion as someone with zero professional credentials to advise, the single most effective thing you could do to improve your health through diet is take notice of how many grams of sugar you consume per day/week, cut the figure down to a minimum, and replace with unrefined slow release carbs in moderate amounts.

Johnny Brown

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I am reading this with interest, having what any received wisdom would call a terrible diet, yet generally excellent health. I'm not sure if I'm a ticking time bomb about to die or that it's all a load of bullshiz. Basically I don't eat any fruit or veg, unless you class potatoes as veg, because I don't like them. In my head I'd love to be a smug vegan but I'd immediately starve.

So is pasta/ bread/ cereal now considered processed and therefore bad? I know sausages are but they're too nice. It's a wonder I'm alive.

I do wonder if all the 'unrefined sugar' fear-mongering comes from US sources. Last time I was in California I found it really difficult to find simple stuff like bread or cheese that was palatable. It's all sweetened/ heavily processed, nothing like Europe.

petejh

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There's only one way to find out JB - you would have to try a completely different diet rich in fruit, veg, lean meat and low in refined carbs; and see if you felt any different.

T_B

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abarro81

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America is a nightmare, it  tool about half an hour in the bread isle in Kentucky to find something without glucose fructose syrup

petejh

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So is pasta/ bread/ cereal now considered processed and therefore bad? I know sausages are but they're too nice. It's a wonder I'm alive.

Anything that isn't straight out of the ground/off a bush/out of a tree/animal killed and onto your plate without alteration is processed to some degree. So yes those things are considered processed and always have been unless someone knows of a pasta tree or a bread that comes out of the ground fully formed.  :P  That isn't really the issue and 'processed' doesn't automatically = 'bad'. Some processing is worse than others however and there's a pretty good body of evidence that certain processed meats including salami, bacon and sausages introduces elements strongly linked to bowel cancer. DYOR.

There's a lot of research/evidence that chronic over-consumption of refined carbs leads to excessive fat-storage and all sorts of metabolic disorders/poor health through overcompensation mechanisms in the body. Then again, there's plenty of research that refutes this. What isn't in doubt is the high-energy content in a very small package and the addictive quality of sugar. This can easily result in eating a lot of calories very quickly if you don't have good self-control. And eating a lot of calories, no matter how healthy you 'believe' yourself to be, cannot fail to lead to weight gain on the inside and out.

Refined carbs = carbohydrates that have gone through an industrial process that removes much of the natural fibre structure surrounding the high-energy simple sugar, leaving just the simple sugar which is rapidly absorbed by the body. This rapid absorbtion (versus the slow absorbtion of e.g. wholegrain carbs) triggers an overcompensation and fat-storage mechanism within the body. The fat-storage can be on the inside as well as the fat you see on the waist. Again there's plenty of research that refutes any link between simple carbs and obesity/poor health. DYOR.

Compare to what you take away from other research/observations surrounding carbon emissions, climate change, pollution and health, cylcing and morbity etc etc etc and make your own informed choice.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:48:32 am by petejh »

cheque

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America is a nightmare, it  tool about half an hour in the bread isle in Kentucky to find something without glucose fructose syrup

Me too. It cost fucking loads as well. Unhealthy food seems to cost less there, healthy stuff way more.

I drank Ale8 and ate Hershey bars and pizza all the time in the Red so I needn't have bothered I suppose. Still came back the same weight as when I left though!. But probably with a much higher likelihood of adult onset diabetes or something.


Stubbs

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JB how can you not like vegetables? I assumed with all your yoga, twitching and ground up ethics you'd be all over the greens! What about if they're cut up really small and put in with some meat?

moose

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like a Frey Bentos steak and onion pie, or a Cornish pastie... that's my kind of dietary advice!

petejh

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The cow-murdering bastard, I bet he also secretly likes fast gas-guzzling cars, voting ukip and sport-climbing trips to horseshoe quarry.

Johnny Brown

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Quote
There's only one way to find out JB - you would have to try a completely different diet rich in fruit, veg, lean meat and low in refined carbs; and see if you felt any different.

Not really sure how I'd go about managing that. I eat lots of lean meat - chicken mostly.  I've discovered baby fruit puree is okay so maybe I should get liquidising.

What about if they're cut up really small and put in with some meat?

Yeah I can manage whatever is liquidised into pasta or curry sauce. If it's big enough to notice in my mouth I bin it.

Quote
chronic over-consumption of refined carbs leads to excessive fat-storage and all sorts of metabolic disorders...
rapid absorbtion (versus the slow absorbtion of e.g. wholegrain carbs) triggers an overcompensation and fat-storage mechanism within the body.

Hmmm. My diet is very rich in white bread and haribo (as P-Rob observed sharing a car to font with me and Jim 'wow I didn't really realise adults ate sweets like this'), but I don't seem to have a problem with fat storage. What sort of 'metabolic disorders' should I be worrying about?

dave

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JB's diet is the biggest enigma in climbing. Its like those people who have an aunty who smoked 40 woodbines a day from age 12 to their deathbed aged 112 and never took a day off work. I predict JB will live to age 140 off a diet of haribo, pale ale, ovenchips and chicken nuggets.

Seriously though, when I hear people say they don't like veg I just assume they mean they're a shit cook and so were their parents. I was never mega keen on veg as a kid cos my mum used to boil the shit out of everything.

Johnny Brown

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My parents met at catering college and my Mum's catering is the stuff of legend. I was a great disappointment.

petejh

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Quote
chronic over-consumption of refined carbs leads to excessive fat-storage and all sorts of metabolic disorders...
rapid absorbtion (versus the slow absorbtion of e.g. wholegrain carbs) triggers an overcompensation and fat-storage mechanism within the body.

Hmmm. My diet is very rich in white bread and haribo (as P-Rob observed sharing a car to font with me and Jim 'wow I didn't really realise adults ate sweets like this'), but I don't seem to have a problem with fat storage. What sort of 'metabolic disorders' should I be worrying about?

Read this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?_r=0

And bear in mind that, whilst it's about the US and fructose syrup which isn't so much of an issue here, if you want to learn about treating gunshot and blast wounds the best place was a n.ireland hospital in the 70s and 80s.

Will Hunt

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Lunchtime is approaching. What can I get from the work canteen that won't lead me to an early grave? I'm thinking jacket potato with tuna mayo and salad. Whether that keeps hunger locked up till home time is another matter...

Johnny Brown

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Yeah, I guess that's what my wife must have read. As I said above, it's a US perspective. I think it is hyperbole, but whilst probably valid and justified over there it isn't over here. Our staples are not pumped with sugar like theirs. It seems to me to be aimed at the lethargic majority, not active outdoor types.

Quote
itís clear that if the fructose hits the liver in sufficient quantity and with sufficient speed, the liver will convert much of it to fat.

Surely they mean 'if you aren't active'. If I'm on pitch 3 of winter route jelly babies are the best food going. I eat lots of sweets to give me energy, which I then use. I accept if I lay on the sofa it'd be an issue. 'Empty' calories. I don't get it, empty of what? Not calories.

So much of the accepted wisdom is so at odds with my experience I just ignore it. I would like to wake up happy and full of energy in the mornings, but I suspect it has little to do with diet.

abarro81

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What you on about JB, you're a fatty and you know it. Bloody boulderers.

Fiend

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'Empty' calories. I don't get it, empty of what? Not calories.
:lol: for some reason that is the funniest thing I've read all day.

Will, swap the salad for a vitamin pill, obviously.

petejh

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Yeah, I guess that's what my wife must have read. As I said above, it's a US perspective. I think it is hyperbole, but whilst probably valid and justified over there it isn't over here. Our staples are not pumped with sugar like theirs. It seems to me to be aimed at the lethargic majority, not active outdoor types.

Quote
itís clear that if the fructose hits the liver in sufficient quantity and with sufficient speed, the liver will convert much of it to fat.

Surely they mean 'if you aren't active'. If I'm on pitch 3 of winter route jelly babies are the best food going. I eat lots of sweets to give me energy, which I then use. I accept if I lay on the sofa it'd be an issue. 'Empty' calories. I don't get it, empty of what? Not calories.

So much of the accepted wisdom is so at odds with my experience I just ignore it. I would like to wake up happy and full of energy in the mornings, but I suspect it has little to do with diet.
:lol:
They're empty of nutrients that you need for a healthy body according to the anecdotal, observational and scientific evidence that's been gathered over the preceding 10000 years that we've been hanging around on the planet. Your body probably does benefit from those nutrients you're not getting, whether you believe it or not, and if you're chronically lacking then some aspect of your physical health is probably going to suffer at some point, possibly a point that is a long way down the line. Depending on the deficiency that could be such a long time that you end up with some random lottery disease that's far worse anyway.
Or maybe the effect of the deficiency is minor enough to be below the bar of recognition when compared to the benefits of your active lifestyle. Who knows - I don't really care.
Or maybe you're getting sufficient nutrients from your sausages, haribo and potatoes. Is there anything you're not telling us, like a secret fetish for midnight snacking on vitamin pills?


edit:
Yeah, I guess that's what my wife must have read. As I said above, it's a US perspective. I think it is hyperbole, but whilst probably valid and justified over there it isn't over here. Our staples are not pumped with sugar like theirs.
Your attitude to sugar and nutrients places you with people who believe 'the evidence for carbon emissions causing climate change isn't compelling enough to change our behaviour'. Except it's only your health involved.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:34:13 pm by petejh »