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Healthy Eating: The Refined Carbs Thread, Simple & Complex (Read 43680 times)

TheTwig

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Nearly vegan, like nearly a Virgin!

I'm a vegetarian, I would say 95% of my diet is dairy free ;) Though I get your point!

Webbo...The heart disease-saturated fat link has been pretty much debunked to the best of my knowledge, here's a good article to get you started... http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/#axzz3YZIqBLjz

(Marks daily apple is a pretty good, science-based website for food stuff btw, highly recommend to everyone...even non-meat eaters ha ha)

habrich

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eat less and better
We don't seem to have fast food salad bars, even though salad should be "faster" than a cheeseburger.

Salads are curious things. I am working on shedding a few kg at the moment, so eating a large amount of greenery (mostly lettuce and baby spinach). Essentially salads are a distraction rather than a meal; something to keep your mouth busy and stop thinking about snickers bars temporarily. In terms of the critical components of nutrition - protein and some kind of energy source - they are a complete waste of time, having very few calories and almost no protein; there is a good reason we don't airlift lettuce to famine-hit countries. If you just ate salad all day, you would eventually die of malnutrition. Unless of course you smother the salad in dressing which can easily triple or quadruple its calorific value from the oil. The other "problem" with salads is that they don't help much with satiety ... personally-speaking I do immediately want a snickers bar even after munching through a giant salad bowl. Conversely greasy meat products like burgers and bacon do make me feel full ... I can forget about food for hours after a couple of bacon rashers. Possibly what the developed world needs is not fast-food salad bars but for the existing fast-food industry to sell most of the same "crap" but in more appropriate portions. For example, a small burger that delivered 300 calories and 20g of protein could be a perfectly functional component of a zero-weight-gain regular diet.


petejh

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You're doing something wrong if salads don't make you feel full. A large salad made up of mixed leaves and spinach, with 3 colors of peppers, a sliced pickled cucumber, mushrooms, a small tin of tuna and a dressing of balsamic vinegar and olive oil contains enough fibre to make anyone of climbing weight feel full. Yet contains relatively very few calories compared to a shit-burger.

edit: and the important bit with reducing calories is to make sure you retain sufficient minerals and vitamins in the calories remaining. A burger doesn't cut it.

Fultonius

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Our salads always have "some" carbs in them - boiled potatoes, croutons, rice, couscous, pasta etc. I'd be diving for food 20 minuted later if it just consisted of greens. ALWAYs with dressing. Oil is good, keeps you full and has important things in it.

habrich

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You're doing something wrong if salads don't make you feel full. A large salad made up of mixed leaves and spinach, with 3 colors of peppers, a sliced pickled cucumber, mushrooms, a small tin of tuna and a dressing of balsamic vinegar and olive oil contains enough fibre to make anyone of climbing weight feel full. Yet contains relatively very few calories compared to a shit-burger.

You could achieve almost the same nutritional impact by throwing away everything except the tuna and dressing. That's where the bulk of the calories and protein are coming from in that meal. The "salad" element to it is fairly spurious. Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

And for anyone who overdoes it with the tuna and dressing, the nutritional content may not be that different to a burger. It is instructive to take a glance at the nutrition charts in chain restaurants ... their supposedly healthy salads can be 700-800 calories ... quite a lot more than a quarter pound burger.


Stubbs

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Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

But the best way is through a variety of fresh fruit and veg, like one might find in a salad  ;)

Is you struggle with satiety from salads can recommend adding sprouted beans and larger bits of carrot or other veg. Apparently the chewing required for such things is something the body takes as a cue for fullness, and they taste good.

habrich

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Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

But the best way is through a variety of fresh fruit and veg, like one might find in a salad  ;)

Is it the "best" way? Why not just pop a multi-vitamin pill? Arguably it's a far better use of the world's resources to move those trace nutrients around in a compact form. It seems to me a massive first-world indulgence to grow and transport something as nutritionally marginal as lettuce! It is almost entirely water and cellulose.

petejh

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You're doing something wrong if salads don't make you feel full. A large salad made up of mixed leaves and spinach, with 3 colors of peppers, a sliced pickled cucumber, mushrooms, a small tin of tuna and a dressing of balsamic vinegar and olive oil contains enough fibre to make anyone of climbing weight feel full. Yet contains relatively very few calories compared to a shit-burger.

You could achieve almost the same nutritional impact by throwing away everything except the tuna and dressing. That's where the bulk of the calories and protein are coming from in that meal. The "salad" element to it is fairly spurious. Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

And for anyone who overdoes it with the tuna and dressing, the nutritional content may not be that different to a burger. It is instructive to take a glance at the nutrition charts in chain restaurants ... their supposedly healthy salads can be 700-800 calories ... quite a lot more than a quarter pound burger.

You're saying the vitamins and minerals ingested by eating lots of vegetables such as red/yellow/green pepper, mushrooms, tomatoes, spinach, are irrelevant and could be replaced by 'many other ways'? Which ways do you have in mind. A vitamin pill?

Anyone who 'overdoes it with the tuna and dressing' to the point that the nutritional content is that of a burger or a sugar&saturated fat drenched N.American restaurant salad is a total idiot, and probably overweight.


edit: I should have said anyone who 'overdoes it etc. and who thinks they're eating healthily/wants to loose weight/remain lean'.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 08:48:04 pm by petejh »

tomtom

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habrich

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You're doing something wrong if salads don't make you feel full. A large salad made up of mixed leaves and spinach, with 3 colors of peppers, a sliced pickled cucumber, mushrooms, a small tin of tuna and a dressing of balsamic vinegar and olive oil contains enough fibre to make anyone of climbing weight feel full. Yet contains relatively very few calories compared to a shit-burger.

You could achieve almost the same nutritional impact by throwing away everything except the tuna and dressing. That's where the bulk of the calories and protein are coming from in that meal. The "salad" element to it is fairly spurious. Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

And for anyone who overdoes it with the tuna and dressing, the nutritional content may not be that different to a burger. It is instructive to take a glance at the nutrition charts in chain restaurants ... their supposedly healthy salads can be 700-800 calories ... quite a lot more than a quarter pound burger.

You're saying the vitamins and minerals ingested by eating lots of vegetables such as red/yellow/green pepper, mushrooms, tomatoes, spinach, are irrelevant and could be replaced by 'many other ways'? Which ways do you have in mind. A vitamin pill?


Well, yeah, why not? Your digestive system doesn't care where nutrients come from. That said, I don't use them as I am pretty confident I get my RDAs elsewhere. As to your list of vegetables ... have you actually checked their vitamin and mineral content? I can't be arsed to google but my understanding is that many of the fat-soluble vitamins are most easily sourced from animal products.

Quote
Anyone who 'overdoes it with the tuna and dressing' to the point that the nutritional content is that of a burger or a sugar&saturated fat drenched N.American restaurant salad is a total idiot, and probably overweight.

You and I and probably most people at UKB are smart enough to figure out what not at eat. It's public health education that interests me. People do tend to grab on to "headline" food facts and not take time to understand the fundamentals. Tell people that salads are healthy and they will buy a 700 calorie thing from McD's.

petejh

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Agree, which is why you have scientists getting all angsty with editorials slating the food industry for being essentially corporate man-slaughtering scumbags in yellow clown suits with smiley faces: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/6/1838.full

Mcd's don't have to sell 700 calorie salads. They do becasue they're the addictive type with shit-loads of fat and sugar in - the things we love and crave becasue they're so calorie dense that it's primitive madness not to eat them.

You've just said salads don't fill you up and now you're arguing for taking a vitamin pill to get your daily nutient intake. Good luck with the hunger pangs.

habrich

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Beans: Views?

To me, if dieting the #1 question should be "how do I get enough protein without blowing my calorie budget?" Legumes deliver a reasonable dose of protein if you eat enough but you will take onboard a lot of calories to get there. A 100g beef steak gives you ~30g of protein at a "cost" of about 200 calories. And that's complete protein with all the amino acids. To get the same amount (though lower quality) of protein from, say, kidney beans, you would need to eat about 300g cooked weight of beans for ~350 calories.

Or put another way, choosing beef instead of beans gives you the calorie "space" to sneak in a couple of chocolate hobnobs  :)

Tuna, chichen, etc have similarly high protein : calorie ratios.


habrich

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You've just said salads don't fill you up and now you're arguing for taking a vitamin pill to get your daily nutient intake. Good luck with the hunger pangs.

You are conflating two different topics there but ... whatever.

I would argue that multi-vitamin/ mineral pills are an efficient way to obtain trace nutrients of which we only need a few fuck-alls every day. The key battle if you are dieting is getting the protein in.

petejh

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Yeah I was going to say - you're not only eating salads there's also breakfast, small snacks through the day - i.e. fruit, wholegrain snacks, and dinner.

If you've sussed out a varied diet - not just living off salads that don't fill you up (still can't my head around that) - then you should get enough vits/minerals. But yeah, probably not a bad idea to supplement if you're restricting calories.

Stubbs

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Is it the "best" way? Why not just pop a multi-vitamin pill? Arguably it's a far better use of the world's resources to move those trace nutrients around in a compact form. It seems to me a massive first-world indulgence to grow and transport something as nutritionally marginal as lettuce! It is almost entirely water and cellulose.

You#re not really eating lettuce or greens for calories though are you.

RE vitamins:

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

lots of literature out there now, think Ben Goldacre has written a lot about it but Bad Science seems to be down.

Following your logic you should be looking at something like mycoprotein for your protein intake, because nothing says massive first world indulgence like a big fat steak!

abarro81

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The key battle if you are dieting is getting the protein in.

Really? Not for me, I reckon my protein intake increase when I'm dieting as I spend so much of my time eating chicken and veg instead of stuff like sandwiches. I find protein bars (low sugar ones) good for dieting too as they make me feel really full.

petejh

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Sure, you get a few trace vitamins and minerals from the veggies but there are many other ways of getting your RDA of those.

But the best way is through a variety of fresh fruit and veg, like one might find in a salad  ;)

Is it the "best" way? Why not just pop a multi-vitamin pill? Arguably it's a far better use of the world's resources to move those trace nutrients around in a compact form. It seems to me a massive first-world indulgence to grow and transport something as nutritionally marginal as lettuce! It is almost entirely water and cellulose.

 :lol: Only just saw the bit about lettuce.

You're right, coffee too. Save the world and buy a greenhouse

petejh

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The key battle if you are dieting is getting the protein in.

Really? Not for me, I reckon my protein intake increase when I'm dieting as I spend so much of my time eating chicken and veg instead of stuff like sandwiches. I find protein bars (low sugar ones) good for dieting too as they make me feel really full.

Check out Quest protein bars if you haven't already.

(They're being sued for misleading advertising of ingredients but I'm sure everything's fine...)


TheTwig

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Agree with the beans=calories thing. It's not rocket science that salad and veggies are good for you, all you have to do is look at populations that are getting all the 'macronutrients' but no fresh food and look at their general health. My personal anecdote: I always eat a mountain of salad and veggies during bouts of hard training and I always feel miles better than if I just have a plate of carbs with some protein and fat thrown on top  :weakbench:

EDIT: forgot to add a link I had meant to add in -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PnUZ3NnjUxXRGoLcdMsV6fztsmon4AMSzYcnOCwlG2M/edit#gid=0

quite a good little spreadsheet IMHO :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 02:03:24 am by TheTwig »

blamo

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Mcd's don't have to sell 700 calorie salads. They do becasue they're the addictive type with shit-loads of fat and sugar in - the things we love and crave becasue they're so calorie dense that it's primitive madness not to eat them.

I have wondered if the addictive nature of their food comes from trans fats or the like.  I do notice eating crap like that makes you want to eat more and more, while being less and less satisfied.

petejh

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Trans fats are banned in the US afaik. But not Canada or the UK/europe. Truly evil stuff, can't think of many worse things to put in your body that qualify as food.

a dense loner

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Ok but can I eat a fuckin salad?
theres a lot of big grades goin around at the moment?

petejh

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You can fuck a salad if you want

blamo

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Trans fats are banned in the US afaik.

I think they are just partially regulated.  They also are doing some tricky labeling on food to make it even more messy.  By the time they get it figured out  the food industry will have moved onto the next form of poison.  :wall: