[Fingers of a Martyr]

this is a subject that has always fascinated me and reading through the back catalogues of posts in here a lot of them r about injuries and techniques on how to get stronger.

now what do u guys think? can one become a top level boulderer (i.e 8b and upwards) through
a)training and no real genetic talent or
b)just through genetic talent and no real training i.e those 'naturals' or
c)some genetic talent and an awful lot of training (this is my personal view)

now there seem to be two very different views to take on this subject and also examples to back both arguements up. look at chris sharma. probably never been on a campus board in his life but still tools the 9a routes and 8b boulder problems.
Then there's people like malcolm smith. 2 hours a night of training for 15 years and climbs font 8b+. but perhaps smith has the genetic make up to allow to him to perform this training without getting injured (yeah i no his hands been fucked but it certainly hasn't slowed him down outdoors) and gaining maximum benefits from it.
i'd say there r exceptions but generally if u don't put the hard work u don't get the results however gud your geneitc makeup is.
but also if u want something bad enough it can be achieved. the human spirit is often highly underestimated.

discuss :wink:

[ned]

c)some genetic talent and an awful lot of training (this is my personal view)

I agree, i think you need a bit of talent, i.e. not a complete retard, but i think that you just need to put in the hard work and be lucky/wise enough not to get injured.

[a dense loner]

look at chris sharma. probably never been on a campus board in his life

he campused absolutely shitloads throughout his younger teenage years. i think if you can be keen and stay uninjured during this time there is not a lot that can stop you. imagine people like bransby and vickers if they had never done trad n spent all their time bouldering or sport climbing. the yank jazz mags would think xmas had come early!
i would say people do pay too much attention to genetics, as long as you're not a fat bustard being integrated back into britain, shit loads of training will work wonders. let's not forget there are many types of 8b.

[Bubba]

Training for climbing is still only just coming out of the dark ages compared to many other well established sports, so I think that it's still just about possible for somebody with enough mental drive and a clutch of the right genetics to get good enough to boulder 8b if they start young and can stay injury free, etc.

That said, I believe that the days of the talented amateur made good are numbered. I'm not sure what the most useful comparison with another sport is, but I'd be inclined to say something like gymnastics; If you look at the current trend of youngsters such as Adam Ondra who's now considered top 10 in the world (in certain circles) at the age of 11, and several other "wunderkinder" who are also startingly good at a very young age,  I think this bears great similarities to gymnastics where athletes peak very young, perhaps due to their amazing power to weight ratios at that age. Maybe, it's all downhill after that?

Many people will be able to make up for lack of peak power after their peak via technique and experience, but I think this advantage will be reduced with the further development of training techniques.

So, basically, you're all past it  :wink:

[Fingers of a Martyr]

So, basically, you're all past it

except me, oh the glory of youth :wink:

[Bubba]

Regarding my post above, I think I was getting away from the original question a bit, which was specifically asking about 8b and up, and genetics, whereas I was thinking more of competing at the very top level which will get harder and harder.

Genetics on their own may get well get you to the top now, but that alone won't do in the future - if you look at many other well-developed sports, I can't think of anyone who competes at the highest levels without dedicating most of their life to hard training, no matter how well suited they are to that sport.

[a dense loner]

you're thinking of rhythmic gymnastics there blubs or the floor moves. for the peak of power/strength exercises the early 30's are touted around by those in the know. so it's you that's past it :wink: n i nearly am :cry:

let's hope these wunderkinds keep their motivation for climbing n not burn out due to outside influences, n then babble random bullshit in the hope of sounding philosophical

[Bubba]

Everything I've read reckons that female gymnasts peak in their late teens and males in their early twenties, and that will be after being trained from when they're ankle-biters.

Your actual pure power peak may be reached later, but it's not as simple as just having the power, is it? There's other things such as flexibility, fitness, resistance to injury, ability to learn new techniques and adapt current ones, power to weight ratio, etc, etc....

I agree, lots of the youngsters will burn out early - their motivations may change due to their own or outside influences, and their bodies may change in a way that isn't beneficial to being light and bouncy no more.

[the_dom]

I think genetics play as big a role as training, but I think that they also play a role in training.

Someone who is genetically 'made' for climbing probably gets injured less than say, someone like me (i.e. completely lacking in any climbing gifts whatsoever) who gets injured quite regularly.

I've seen people who, at their first climbing session ever, you could pretty much tell that they would be really good climbers. Ironically, none of them climb any more, which leads me to believe that motivation is another big part of it.

anyway, that's my 2 cents.