[mctrials23]

I've read a fair bit about what the best way to get stronger for climbing is and my main take home is to try things at your limit that are only a few moves long and to end the session when you still feel fresh.

This is quite hard to do for a number of reason especially as I don't have a wall 10 minutes from my house. I usually climb for 2 - 2.5 hours in a session and probably 30-40 minutes of that is warm up. I know I don't rest enough throughout these sessions because as soon as I feel like I have recovered enough for another go/climb I usually head onto the wall again.

With this approach I am getting better slowly but I feel like I am not getting stronger as quickly as I could. With these sessions I need at least a days rest to recover and my climbing days are usually monday and thursday at the moment. That means that tuesday I don't feel recovered enough to hit the fingers again and wednesday I don't want to go too hard and compromise the session on thursday.

Would I be better off cutting these 2hr plus sessions down to a max of 1.5hrs of more intense climbing, finishing fresh and then getting more fingerboardings sessions in at home. I reckon that I can get 3 sessions of climbing done some weeks along with 2 fingerboard sessions.

Does this seem more sensible or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[shark]

I've read a fair bit about what the best way to get stronger for climbing is and my main take home is to try things at your limit that are only a few moves long and to end the session when you still feel fresh.

This is quite hard to do for a number of reason especially as I don't have a wall 10 minutes from my house. I usually climb for 2 - 2.5 hours in a session and probably 30-40 minutes of that is warm up. I know I don't rest enough throughout these sessions because as soon as I feel like I have recovered enough for another go/climb I usually head onto the wall again.

With this approach I am getting better slowly but I feel like I am not getting stronger as quickly as I could. With these sessions I need at least a days rest to recover and my climbing days are usually monday and thursday at the moment. That means that tuesday I don't feel recovered enough to hit the fingers again and wednesday I don't want to go too hard and compromise the session on thursday.

Would I be better off cutting these 2hr plus sessions down to a max of 1.5hrs of more intense climbing, finishing fresh and then getting more fingerboardings sessions in at home. I reckon that I can get 3 sessions of climbing done some weeks along with 2 fingerboard sessions.

Does this seem more sensible or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I think "compromise" is necessary and even desirable in a training phase and not recovering fully (over extending yourself) for a period of a few weeks then backing off and undertraining for a week/ten days allows the gains to catch up as it were. The other thing is variety. If you do stuff that is different bit overlaps even on the same day. Also prioritise what aspect of strength you want to train.

The main thing is that you are getting better slowly. For most of us thats the best we can hope for.   

[TheTwig]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Supercompensation.svg

^ This. I have the same problem as you in that the nearest decent wall is about 45-50 minute drive, so when I go I want to climb for 4 hours and spend most of that onsighting. End result is I'm technically pretty good for my pretty shit climbing level, as I'm getting lots of volume but with too much rest inbetween due to being so bloody damaged.

The trick is to do enough 'work' to make the body adapt, but not so much that the adaptation response gets blunted, then returns start to diminish and injury chances increase. Thinking about all my elbow tendonitis problems, it all really only started once I started climbing 'hard' all the time. Common sense really but after a while you begin to think hurting all the time inbetween sessions is normal. I'm gradually trying to break my bad habits and start doing shorter sessions more often.

I can't remember if I read it in one of D Macs books or somewhere else, but after some arbitrary point it takes dramatically longer to recover from training/performance stress. Everyone's heard stories of people running an ultramarathon or whatever and still not being 100% after a year etc

[siderunner]

In the last 6m I've been following what you are talking about, in that I try fewer but harder problems, and leave before utterly trashed. My sessions are around 1h 45 and at least 45 minutes is warmup. It's easy to avoid the temptation to stay longer as I train before work! I've got stronger in this period than ever before, and a lot quicker than the days when i was doing zillions of problems for 3 hrs.

I think it's a mindset thing - these are still good, and hard, workouts, but it took me a while to believe that and not tack something gruelling on the end.

I generally project 2-4 problems. My ideal is that on a given move I can't physically do I pull harder each try for around 5 tries, the last couple efforts being truly 100% couldn't have tried harder pulls. If I go for an effort and can't pull harder than last time I berate myself for not resting enough. And in between efforts I spend my time trying to visualise myself doing the move, both general positive thinking but also technical aspects (really dig in that toe as I initiate; make sure to keep pulling with that lower hand even as I get extended - that sort of thing).

I've been doing those sessions twice a week during a strength phase.

I'm a total punter btw but have been excited by how much I've improved with this regime after 5 years of flatlining.

[Schnell]

I've read a fair bit about what the best way to get stronger for climbing is and my main take home is to try things at your limit that are only a few moves long and to end the session when you still feel fresh.

This is quite hard to do for a number of reason especially as I don't have a wall 10 minutes from my house. I usually climb for 2 - 2.5 hours in a session and probably 30-40 minutes of that is warm up. I know I don't rest enough throughout these sessions because as soon as I feel like I have recovered enough for another go/climb I usually head onto the wall again.

With this approach I am getting better slowly but I feel like I am not getting stronger as quickly as I could. With these sessions I need at least a days rest to recover and my climbing days are usually monday and thursday at the moment. That means that tuesday I don't feel recovered enough to hit the fingers again and wednesday I don't want to go too hard and compromise the session on thursday.

Would I be better off cutting these 2hr plus sessions down to a max of 1.5hrs of more intense climbing, finishing fresh and then getting more fingerboardings sessions in at home. I reckon that I can get 3 sessions of climbing done some weeks along with 2 fingerboard sessions.

Does this seem more sensible or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Are you climbing at the weekends as well? Would help to know though either way you've scope to develop a better training programme for the week. I'd say whether you should fingerboard depends on your overall level and your techique, but assuming that's all there:

Some people seem to successfully follow a programme of finger training days followed by power/bigger muscle groups on the next day. In your case you could think about having Mon for FB at home doing a short intense session, and then tues and thurs at the wall. or mon and thurs at the wall and wed fingerboard. During sessions at the wall you could focus on burly rather than ultra-fingery climbing.

You won't necessarily wreck yourself for the following day doing a 30 min FB sesh though I imagine it'll take some time to get used to.

Devil's advocate: you could start with a period of trying to increase your 'training capacity' by adding an extra day of less intense climbing/'training and more volume, this could be one of your wall days with a FB session on the previous day. Admittedly probably not very appealing.

[Matt002]

I tried the short intense sessions finishing fresh (1-5 moves at limit).
After a couple of weeks i started to fade after a couple of hard moves.
I changed to 1-5 moves (ANPOWER i believe) for the fist half of the session and then did some 12 - 15 move limit problems after to build ANCAP).  Training these together has made a big difference, I can sustain shorter, harder sequences for longer and have more quality attempts per session.
Doing the ANCAP after does mean I finish feeling pretty powered out after every session tho.
I take 2 full rest days between each session which does mean varying my climbing days from week to week but feeling totally fresh and seeing improvements in every session has been possible using this method.

[abarro81]

Unless I've misunderstood, that's not an pow or an cap, just short boulders and long boulders..

[mctrials23]

I can climb 3 times a week but 2 is something that I always manage whereas 3 is not so assured.

I was thinking 3 sessions a week if possible. 2 hard bouldering at my limit with lots of rest and 1-3 moves making sure I don't leave trashed. The third session would then be a volume / technique session but again leaving before I am trashed. This would be more of a technique / PE session.

 I would then try to get a couple of fingerboard sessions in as well. This would give me 2 days a week rest which should in theory be enough as long as I periodically have weeks where I rest maybe 3-4 days instead of 2.

As you have said Matt, if it starts causing a drop off in performance I will adjust it but I want to get stronger and pootling at the wall a few times a week isn't cutting it and its affecting my rest days/ability to fingerboard on off days.

[Fultonius]

I'm not meaning to be a massive bell-end here, but we seem to be getting a lot of advice on the forums from what appears to be relative punters. One of the things I find very good about this place is total wads (and alex    )  post very informative advice gained through: trial and error, advice from other uber-wads, hard work and they have results to go with it.

In some ways, I wish "current max grade" was in your profile to see if you're getting advice from someone in the 6s and low 7s, compared to the high 7s and 8s.

Now, don't get me wrong, this forum welcomes all. I'm a total punter when it comes to training and hard bouldering, my max being around 7B and current level around 7A (in a few goes). That's why I usually am on the asking end when it comes to advice. When it comes to injuries I've had, rehab exercises etc. I'll happy wade in.

If I'm referring to YOU, please don't feel like your presence is not wanted, but think twice when your about to post your latest piece of wisdom. God,I remember the some of the stuff I used to post on UKC when I thought I knew it all, that was about 5 years ago and I know a lot more now, I also know how much I don't know!

[Matt002]

I'm a total punter.
Hardest Boulder 7A
Any thing I post is my own experience only, worth what you paid for it.

[Matt002]

Unless I've misunderstood, that's not an pow or an cap, just short boulders and long boulders..

I perform these exercises pretty much as described in your training for sport climbing pdf although perhaps with more rest than prescribed for it to be ANPOWER. I do the ANCAP pretty much exactly as described.  I usually feel pretty trashed at the end but follow it wiith 2 rest days.  I feel like I'm getting stronger, stuff that felt hard is feeling easier and stuff that would have been a project is going in a session. 

[mctrials23]

My current level is about 7b pretty solid, some 7c and I want to be climbing 8a by the end of this year. I'm a heavy lanky fucker though so I need strong fingers.

[abarro81]

Ah cool. The crossed wires comes from you saying limit problems, which they aren't with that structure..

[Sasquatch]

My current level is about 7b pretty solid, some 7c and I want to be climbing 8a by the end of this year. I'm a heavy lanky fucker though so I need strong fingers.

Yes, you need strong fingers to climb 8a.  The question is whether your finger strength is your biggest weakness, and do you want to climb an 8a by the end of the year or climbing 8a consistently.  If you have an 8a picked out, then what is holding you back at this point?

#1 rule for training - Quality RULES.  both quality of work and quality of rest are paramount.  (after SAID of course)

If you are trying to get stronger, then you need as much quality strength training as you can get.  That may be very little total volume... 

If you are trying to get Aerocap, then you need quality Aerocap, and as much as you can get and still retain both quality and recovery. 

[mctrials23]

If possible I want to be a fairly solid 8a climber by the end of the year but that may be a little optimistic. I think its usually quite achievable to boulder 2 V grades or more harder than your level if you pick a problem that suits you perfectly so I would be fooling myself to think I was anything like an 8a boulderer without having done half a dozen or more.

I don't have weak fingers but nowhere near as strong as they could be and with my weight I think they will hold me back a lot if I don't make them a focus. I'm currently recovering from an A2 still but its nearly better and its helped me improve on slopers and open handed holds while I recover.

[Murph]

Fultonius - I've mistakenly agreed with someone who clearly knows a lot more than me on another thread, so time to fess up.

Total punter.
Climbed my second 7A the other day.
Eyeing up my first 7B in the near future.
Not really sure UKB is the place for me but enjoy reading the knowledgeable stuff you mentioned.

OP - More short intense sessions at all costs according to Dave "build your own woody" Mac and the Anderson "build a campus board while on detachment in the Stan" Brothers

Sounds like you could really benefit from listening to the brothers' interview on this podcast, I found it inspirational:

https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/mark-and-mike-anderson-interview/?portfolioID=3838

[ghisino]

To the op.
Some random toughts, partly based on personal experience and partly on stuff I've been taught.

I agree with what someone said above, controlled accumulation of training fatigue over some weeks is ok and it is even the basis of periodization. The tricky bit is not getting injuried or badly overtrained, and tapering at the right time.

If you do big sessions at mid intensity with short rests you are probably laying down a good base for a short-intense phase later on. Sticking to one of the two extremes forever is less effective than alternating...

If I was you, I'd adjust your Monday session so that you can fingerboard effectively on wed. A reasonable fingerboard session should not make you tired or sore for Thursday, especially if you do less harder hangs and avoid repeater-style stuff.

To make your bouldering session "sharper", project harder, aim to send one or two project per session rather than ten flahes, and time your rests...use a watch. Do at least one longer break (15') in the middle. Take it as if you were trying a meaningful boulder outdoors, with limited skin. Be smart and make every attempt count...

The higher the intensity, the more rested you need to be. Anedoctically, this is also a reason to fingerboard or campus in the morning if you can. Not before going to bed anyway.
On a related note, when I want to train max strength and I feel physically ok but a bit sleepy, I like a double espresso 15 mins before the session...

[blamo]

So I am your classic 7C punter at bouldering and mid 8 sport climber.  First off, I find no correlation between climbing ability relative to advice given.  I sometimes climb with a guy who boulders 8C and sport climbs 8c+ and find his advice awful...    I often find people climbing slightly below and above my level very helpful.  There is a big difference between the "best" climber and the "strongest" climber.  Done with rant. 

Anyway, I have definitely found, if your goal is only to improve your hard move bouldering, you are better to rest a long time and always be fresh.  However, if you also want to be consistently good that might not be your best approach (I am still trying to figure out what that approach might be).   

[Fultonius]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all wads = experts and all punters = idiots.

It's just wht's the use in comments like "well, in the last 3 months I've found xxxx to help my progression".

When the progression is 6A to 6B or 6C to 7A. Basically, if improving your bouldering grades at this level is your aim then all you have to do is CLIMB LOADS.

So, perfect example, our man MCtrials23 wants to go from 7C to 8A (consistently). I could regurgitate stuff I've heard but I cannot give any first hand experience, so I won't. Whereas Ghisino, Nibs, Sasq, Abarro etc. etc., people round here know, are people to listen to. We know their history, their background etc.

I'm a total punter.
Hardest Boulder 7A
Any thing I post is my own experience only,worth what you paid for it.

True, but on the other hand, look at the amazing free advice we get from all these folks who've worked their way into the 8s.

Put it another way, even if some of the advice from top climbers is wack - I'd rather hear 5 people's opinion who all climb 8B, than 5 people's opinion who climb 7A.

 

I often find people climbing slightly below and above my level very helpful. 

So do I (and I presume many others) that's why it's SO BLOODY IMPORTANT for the advice to BE TAILORED to the person who is asking. Unfortunately MCTrails23 didn't state his goal in his OP which makes it tricky.

Anyway, I think that's all I have to say on the matter.

[Matt002]

I have never given advice on this forum, I sometimes give an example from my experience when it seems relevant, like you I know the posters who's advice carries weight and usually pay more attention to those, but I also like reading the other stuff to see how my fellow punters are getting along.  I read most of the posts in power club each week, I get quite a lot of training ideas from that and not all from the wads. 

[Fultonius]

No worries, and apologies for you getting in the cross fire on your first bit of advice haha! 

[blamo]

Fultonius,

I definitely agree with what you are saying. 

I find the lack of information on improvement much past mid 7 unfortunate.  I think in a lot of ways that is why ukbouldering training forum is very valuable.  Even the best training books devote 90% of their contents to total beginners.

Since climbing training and technique improvement is still in its infancy it seems like we have a few things that people know work, a few things people know don't work, and a huge pot of stuff that may or may not work that everyone is doing.  Fast forward 100 years and I bet this will be less of a puzzle. 

[Sasquatch]

Fast forward 100 years and I bet this will be less of a puzzle. 

I hope for the the future's sake.  One of the reasons climbing holds my attention is the puzzle.  The activity is so diverse and so intricate that there is no one size fits all solution for everything. 

[blamo]

One of the reasons climbing holds my attention is the puzzle.  The activity is so diverse and so intricate that there is no one size fits all solution for everything. 

 

I definitely agree.  Since there aren't pre-identified limitations everyone is excited about the potential to improve and I think that makes it exciting.   

How often can you shoot hoops with Micheal Jordan or show up to the same track as Usain Bolt and ask him for "beta" on running?

 

[Sasquatch]

Fast forward 100 years and I bet this will be less of a puzzle. 

I hope not for the the future's sake.  One of the reasons climbing holds my attention is the puzzle.  The activity is so diverse and so intricate that there is no one size fits all solution for everything.

Fixed my own quote.  In bold above.