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Bulking and Cutting with Periodized Programs (Read 17543 times)

petejh

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I eat sweets and cake.

And each year you get a bit heavier.

Doylo

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And stronger

petejh

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As someone (think it was George Smith via Pete R) once said: 'you'll never be aware of passing your own zenith'.
Too much sweets and cake makes passing it come earlier.

the_dom

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I presume there's a typo in there somewhere, since otherwise you seem to have just said that you find a normal calorie diet easier to sustain than a low calorie diet. I think most wouldn't argue with that one! :lol:

There's not a typo - I know it seems self-evident, but my point was that it's easier to lose  weight or maintain healthy weight by reforming your diet than it is by going into caloric deficit, a fact that is not always appreciated by climbers. I know this, because I've spent months at a time, on more than one occasion, on low calorie diets and absolutely miserable. At the moment, while I'm not quite as light as I was then, I'm much more easily able to maintain my weight, while never feeling miserable about how little I can eat or having to count calories - I just have to limit my carb intake.

Duma

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For a thread with such a nonsense title there's some good stuff on this one.

slackline

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If what a lot of knowledgeable people are saying about sugar is true then it's another tobbaco-industry in the making and the lo-fat / high carbs thing is a food marketing/food industry scandal. By the time mainstream Jo Public catch up with what a lot of smart people already believe about sugar the numbers of people affected by poor health - obesity, inflammatory diseases, diabetes etc. - caused by a diet containing too much simple carbs will be huge.

By the time?  Already happening.  Obesity has been steadily rising over the last few decades (see figure 2.3 on pg12, also figure 7.4 on pg 56 shows that this has placed an increased burden on hospital admissions/episodes).  Diabetes prevalence has also increased (another random link.

The "sugar industry" are regularly disagreeing with regulation/academics about the impact of sugar on public health (take your pick).

For example, whilst not related to obesity it transpires the "sugar industry" have not been above manipulating public health policy in the past, just as tobacco companies did.

petejh

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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.

the_dom

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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.

My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.

If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read  The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.

Fultonius

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Yep. I've been a believer in the health benefits of a diet high in fat / low in sugar for around the last 5 years now and have read a ton of stuff around the subject. That said, it never fails to amaze me how something can seem like a no-brainer one day - i.e. reducing consumption of sugar/refined simple carbs - and then in a decade's time the wisdom changes as new evidence emerges. I'm open to the possibility that what I believe could be completely wrong. However at the moment the case against sugar looks damning and as if the 'sugar industry' may be culpable for causing a massive amount of ill health. I avoid it.

Same boat.  I used to try and keep my fat intake down as I was told ad infinitum that this was a "healthy diet". Especially since meeting my lass (so the last 4 years) I eat a fairly high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet. I rarely get serious hinger pangs, my weight has been remarkably stable and low and I barely ever need to think about what I eat. Loads of nuts, olive oil, cheese, pastry, etc. etc. Feel great!  High fructose corn syrup is satin's cum!

petejh

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My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.

If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read  The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.

Not at all having a go at you The-Dom but.. There may have been a time when I might have paid for books like that but not any more.
If you want the science it's easily and freely available from reputable sources, dyor.
If you want healthy diet plans, ditto.

If you want to help someone to make a living out of commodifying information around a subject which is a fundamental human necessity - consuming a healthy diet - buy their book.

That Real Meal website has lots of good free info and I agree with their message. I don't think it's necessary to pay someone a penny to learn how to eat a healthy diet, unless you really are a sheep with no willpower or inquisitiveness who needs to be taken by the hand and led step by step through how to avoid the ubiquitous processed crap we're told is 'food' and instead cook with unprocessed ingredients.

Actually I can see there's a huge market for the healthy eating bandwagon because marketing has turned so many people into idiots.. and the solution is an idiots guide..

petejh

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Fultonius - yep bang on, that's my experience too with weight stable, feeling energetic and never a food pang.

the_dom

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My fiance went on a sugar detox and it was an ugly, difficult process. I don't think that we appreciate the amount of sugar that most people actually ingest and the potential health implications there.

If you're interested in the high fat / low carb diet and science, read  The Real Meal Revolution )(http://realmealrevolution.com/) by Dr Tim Noakes. I don't necessarily agree with all of it (and I find it a bit of a polemic), but it makes some compelling points, and the principles of the diet have worked very well for me.

Not at all having a go at you The-Dom but.. There may have been a time when I might have paid for books like that but not any more.
If you want the science it's easily and freely available from reputable sources, dyor.
If you want healthy diet plans, ditto.

If you want to help someone to make a living out of commodifying information around a subject which is a fundamental human necessity - consuming a healthy diet - buy their book.

That Real Meal website has lots of good free info and I agree with their message. I don't think it's necessary to pay someone a penny to learn how to eat a healthy diet, unless you really are a sheep with no willpower or inquisitiveness who needs to be taken by the hand and led step by step through how to avoid the ubiquitous processed crap we're told is 'food' and instead cook with unprocessed ingredients.

Actually I can see there's a huge market for the healthy eating bandwagon because marketing has turned so many people into idiots.. and the solution is an idiots guide..

I agree - to an extent. However, I think that climbers tend to be more aware of what they're eating and why than your average person.

I didn't actually buy Noakes's book - I felt that I could grasp and live by most of the principles based on my base level of knowledge and experience, but after my fiance bought it I found that it was actually a decent reference, as I tend to browse books that are lying around and take in more than if I was surfing the net at work. 

That said, there's a huge amount available online, but the book has gone a long way towards creating awareness around a different kind of healthy eating, at least here in SA, and I think there's real benefit to that. People tend to be idiots who make terrible food choices - the more about healthy eating, the better.

slackline

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 :offtopic:

Coke is a healthy snack: How company pays to get out that message  :-\

Should point out sugar isn't the sole cause of the "obesity epidemic" its one factor among many including for example increasingly sedentary work (e.g. sitting at a desk).

 :offtopic:

hamsforlegs

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There's a bit of a danger of railing at smoke here.

There has never been any evidence for the high carb diets that have been pushed for decades as healthy. They remain the official advice given out by doctors all over the world, and yet anyone with any inquisitiveness knows that it's nonsense. Lots of people, including plenty of doctors, are not very inquisitive. So it goes.

We're still relatively ignorant about the impact of nutrition in various areas. The old advice of 'eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables' still pretty much sums up the useful stuff I think? I suppose we might now add 'eat plenty of fat and a good amount of protein; avoid stuff that's been heavily processed'.

Lots of people find anything like this totally impossible to understand or translate into practical action. That's why there's a huge business of explaining, simplifying, confusing, packaging and formulating this stuff into diet schemas. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. The knowledge is out there for free - if people want it dressed up in a way that appeals or works for them, then they should pay for it.

By far the bigger problem is getting the mainstream health profession to be very very clear about the reality. Eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables. Simple, but not necessarily easy for many.

TheTwig

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On the obesity/weight gain front there's been some research in recent years pointing the finger at the amount of synthetic chemicals in things like Tupperware food storage, BPA in tinned cans etc for affecting weight gain.

What hamsforlegs said about 'eat food, not too much, mainly vegetables' is pretty much spot on. Most of the fancy diets these days (I think Dave Mac says this in 9 out of 10 climbers?) just work by effectively manipulating your diet so you are taking in less calories, and beyond a certain point the macro % of carb/fat/protein doesn't seem to matter.

Problem is the food industry. processing food adds value (to the producer), mostly by using the cheapest possible ingredients that are often not much good for anything else, or are byproducts of other processes. God only knows what they put in mcdonalds burgers etc  :sick:

galpinos

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For all those on the low carb thing, don't you eat any bread/pasta/rice/tatties etc? Pretty much everything I eat revolves around those key ingredients........


Fultonius

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I can't speak for the other guys but I'll try and explain what I mean.

I had spent many years trying to keep my weight down for climbing. I used to be 12 1/2 stone (78kg), some of it was unessecarry muscle but plenty of it was splodgy fatty mank.

So I cut out fat. You know, because fat is bad. No butter, much less cream, low fat yoghurt all that shit. Made no bloody difference, was always starving by lunch.

I lost quite a lot of weight on a 7 week climbing trip back in 2009 (down to 11st 10 / 74kg or so iirc) and after that just went back to a normal ish diet (lots of veg, medium everything else). In fact, I lost most of that in the first 4 weeks being in the hebrides for a week then lofoten for 3, then put some back on in 3 weeks in squamish haha! 

Anyway, now coming to the point. Basically I've just changed my approach to food where I don't consider fats "bad" and everything else "good" (not that I ever thought sugar was good.

A very typical* day for me would be:  Big bowl Meusli (with as little added sugar as I can find) and full fat greek yoghurt. Lunch would be a half baguette with cheese and tomato or a wrap with tuna etc and dinner would be something like quiche, some potatoes, salad or a big salad of goats cheese, nuts, little bit of pasta.    (*  would eat less on an "office day" but 4 or 5 days out of 7 I'm out skiing/climbing/mountainbiking/offshore working, so I have a high calorie requirement a lot of the time...for now)

So it's not some kind of "atkins" no carb thing and I'm not trying to lose weight (72/73kg and 182cm / 11st 8/9 and a smidge under 6") I just want to be full of energy and not have serious hunger pangs. Working offshore is where I notice the benefit of higher protein and fat content in breakfast etc. If I have a bowl of normla cereal I'll be ravenous by 10, whereas 2 bits of toast, 2 poached eggs and maybe a slice of black pudding will keep me full till lunch. I don't count calories, so maybe the second just has more than the first but I don't seem to struggle with putting on weight. (whereas I used to sometimes come back from offshore 2 or 3kg heavier)

Anyway, it's now 05:30 Malaysian time so I better go for breakfast.




Fultonius

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P.S. the main shift in my approach has been a conscious reduction in sugar and sugar-type things (high fructose death goop) which "low fat" products are often laden with. I've even halved my glass of fruit juice in the morning  :o

I probably consume a similar amount of calories as before, just shifted the balance towards fats from sugars. Protein is about the same (if not less, due to the lass being veggie).

A typical main course for me previously would have been a big bowl of pasta, or pile of rice with chile con carne etc. I just watch the size of my carb portions now, unless I've just had a big day in the mountains then it's a case of eat as much as possible, no matter what it is!

blamo

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a slice of black pudding will keep me full till lunch

as in fully engaged on the toilet?  :lol:


blamo

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P.S. the main shift in my approach has been a conscious reduction in sugar and sugar-type things (high fructose death goop) which "low fat" products are often laden with. I've even halved my glass of fruit juice in the morning  :o


It is interesting.  I think simply being "vested" in what you put in your mouth fixes 95% of the issues.  Simply avoiding the "this is crap" and "I don't need to eat this," seems to really help with the diet.

krymson

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it's easy to go a bit overboard with the X is good, Y is bad stuff eh?
Too much carbs are bad - but that doesnt mean you need to get rid of them all - not even the simple stuff.
Fat can be good - but eating a completely fried meal is probably less than great.

I went completely overboard with the protein/fat increase last week and had a pretty bad time, now im at a more moderate increase  and feel great.

These fad diet/nutrition things are probably overall a good thing as they are based on science -  you learn more about your body and what is good and bad for it as well as how to optimize for sport, but you still gotta have some common sense and pay attention to your own body, not just what people who probably have a completely different body composition and lifestyle from you say.

the_dom

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For all those on the low carb thing, don't you eat any bread/pasta/rice/tatties etc? Pretty much everything I eat revolves around those key ingredients........

No. I've done my best to cut them out completely. Given any choice, I'll not eat any of those at all, but that's my 2 cents based on what works for me.

TheTwig

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I avoid pasta like the plague, and generally only eat home baked wholemeal/spelt bread (the equiv of a 4 or 5 slices per week I'd say).

The main way I can feel full is if I eat a fair amount of lentils, brown/wild rice, quinoa (this stuff is gold dust btw). Obviously those all have various amounts of carbs in them, but generally slower releasing/lower quantities than your average bread/pasta/potatoes

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Recently started a low sugar thing myself and so far so good. Definitely feeling less hunger pangs. If I fancy a snack it's a carrot rather than whatever is in the office biscuit tin. Afternoon slumps are less noticiable too. Feel more awake and energetic generally.

Also reducing my carb intake though bingeing on them when necessary. Like tonight ready for 4 hours of running tomorrow.

A note on quinoa as it's been mentioned. The West's increased appetite for this wonder food has effectively priced out the poorest Bolivians and Peruvians from where it is or in fact was a staple food. Imported junk food is now cheaper for them. Links available on Google.

TheTwig

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Recently started a low sugar thing myself and so far so good. Definitely feeling less hunger pangs. If I fancy a snack it's a carrot rather than whatever is in the office biscuit tin. Afternoon slumps are less noticiable too. Feel more awake and energetic generally.

Also reducing my carb intake though bingeing on them when necessary. Like tonight ready for 4 hours of running tomorrow.

A note on quinoa as it's been mentioned. The West's increased appetite for this wonder food has effectively priced out the poorest Bolivians and Peruvians from where it is or in fact was a staple food. Imported junk food is now cheaper for them. Links available on Google.

I'm happy to get into the ethics of buying quinoa with you, though maybe hijacking the thread isn't the best place. Suffice to say it's not a case of greedy westerners forcing the poor farmers at gunpoint to hand the stuff over. The farmers are making a very good living from it, and still have enough to feed themselves and their communities in the most cases. I personally buy certified fairtrade quinoa and don't think I should feel 'guilty' about it. (in the same way as I do tea, coffee, sugar, bananas, and other 'high risk' food products ((can you say the same?) It's a complex issue but this article is a good place to start http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/fair-trade-quinoa_n_3561949.html . In summary: you can't stop globalization, best thing to do is ensure local people are being paid a fair price for their product (whether its clothes, food, consumer goods, whatever) and have working conditions etc.

 

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