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Bulking and Cutting with Periodized Programs (Read 17669 times)

krymson

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Been getting into a strength phase -- basically bouldering a lot after mostly climbing for a while and been a bit frustrated at slow progress on very physical problems. I can hang on forever off a crimp or sloper but am falling on the big moves, the gastons, on the lockoffs. The tendons and pulleys are strong but the muscles are weak and they are taking forever to grow.

I obviously need to tune my workouts better but thinking back to when i did weight training i remember diet made a big difference. Id think that the stuff you eat in a low volume high intensity strength phase should probably be quite different from the higher volume lower intensity endurance or performance phases, no?

I'm currently eating a fairly balanced diet with some protein but more carbs and veggies - fine for climbing loads but i wonder if its holding me back in terms of strength. Im thinking i might try upping the protein and fat intake while decreasing carbs for the next few weeks.

In addition i was thinking of doing more weights and rings during this period - deadlifting, maybe even a few squats, to encourage general muscle growth. After this period I'd go back to maintenance work.

Was wondering if anyone has experimented with adjusting their diet with these periodized programs and how it went? Any weight lifter will tell you diet is as important as exercise for muscle growth.  If you're periodizing your training, it doesnt make sense to me that your diet should stay the same.

When i look around the boulder gym i notice quite a few of the strong boulderers have some meat on their bones, whereas strong route climbers seem almost universally lanky. A few kg put on during a strength phase and the excess cut during subsequent phases doesnt seem like it would hurt things.

TheTwig

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There's certainly a cut-off point where having too low mass (not enough strength/muscle to do big moves, or reserves to recover between routes/sets)  and having too much mass (too much useless muscle, e.g. in legs, or too much bodyfat) kick in and have an affect on your climbing. I would guess it correlates highly with finger strength. I certainly remember first experimenting with diet when training and I felt totally crap eat massive meals when I was doing 3 or 4 sessions a week of really intense training, though I've swung around to trying to go for quality (and deciding my body actually needed some nutritious food instead of a big plate of carbs!) most of the cycle and being a bit more gentle with dietary changes.

What kind of length of periodisation are you talking about? I break up the year into 3 4-month blocks which means I can eat a relatively healthy diet most of the time and start increasing the veg/salad intake for the last 6 weeks to try and get a bit lighter for my peak. Off of the top of my head I think the Andersons talk about diet & periodization a little in Rock Climbers Training Manual? I will have a look at it tomorrow

(Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble, night-shift brain is fried)

the_dom

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I've been following a low-carb, high(ish) fat and protein diet for the last few months and the results have been pretty good. I've definitely upped my training levels and intensity, often training twice a day, and my energy levels and ability to recover have been excellent. Over and above this, I've shed a few kilos despite taking a view of food that is more focused on the quality of what I eat than the quantity - my previous climbing weight management efforts were very calorie-focused, which is a shit way to live.

krymson

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dom, i looked at your power club posts recently and its the exact kind of thing im trying to do this phase - bouldering, hangboard, weights,etc. I'll give it a go and see how it works out.

And do you do anything with meal timing or nutrient timing or just in general try to eat more protein/fat and less carbs these days?  I guess my only concern is running out of  juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.

the_dom

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dom, i looked at your power club posts recently and its the exact kind of thing im trying to do this phase - bouldering, hangboard, weights,etc. I'll give it a go and see how it works out.

And do you do anything with meal timing or nutrient timing or just in general try to eat more protein/fat and less carbs these days?  I guess my only concern is running out of  juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.

No timing or anything like that - in fact, the biggest change for me has been the consistency of energy. I haven't had that low blood sugar feeling that I got when I was eating more carbs,  instead I eat breakfast at approximately 6:15am, lunch at 12pm, and dinner at 7:30pm and only ever very rarely snack inbetween, whereas previously I would have a mid-morning and mid-afternoon energy bar to raise my flagging energy levels. These days, I take along snacks when I go bouldering, but very rarely actually eat them, unless I'm out for 4 hours.

That said, the diet does feel counter-intuitive at times - "what do you mean, more fat?!" - but the upside is that you get to eat tasty things like cheese and chorizo without guilt.

blamo

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I guess my only concern is running out of  juice during a longer bouldering session, for instance if im not eating enough carbs.

If your goal is to work on physical (hard for your) problems you probably want to be finishing your workout while you still have something in the tank.  I have found longer bouldering sessions to hurt my ability to do big moves and mess up recovery for the next workout.

rodma

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Been getting into a strength phase -- basically bouldering a lot after mostly climbing for a while and been a bit frustrated at slow progress on very physical problems. I can hang on forever off a crimp or sloper but am falling on the big moves, the gastons, on the lockoffs. The tendons and pulleys are strong but the muscles are weak and they are taking forever to grow.

I obviously need to tune my workouts better but thinking back to when i did weight training i remember diet made a big difference. Id think that the stuff you eat in a low volume high intensity strength phase should probably be quite different from the higher volume lower intensity endurance or performance phases, no?

I'm currently eating a fairly balanced diet with some protein but more carbs and veggies - fine for climbing loads but i wonder if its holding me back in terms of strength. Im thinking i might try upping the protein and fat intake while decreasing carbs for the next few weeks.

In addition i was thinking of doing more weights and rings during this period - deadlifting, maybe even a few squats, to encourage general muscle growth. After this period I'd go back to maintenance work.

Was wondering if anyone has experimented with adjusting their diet with these periodized programs and how it went? Any weight lifter will tell you diet is as important as exercise for muscle growth.  If you're periodizing your training, it doesnt make sense to me that your diet should stay the same.

When i look around the boulder gym i notice quite a few of the strong boulderers have some meat on their bones, whereas strong route climbers seem almost universally lanky. A few kg put on during a strength phase and the excess cut during subsequent phases doesnt seem like it would hurt things.

Have you tried training bigger moves with good form on easier angles?

If you can hang locked off with slightly bent arms forever, then training on the fingerboard is not going to address your inability to do big moves.

unless you are already training big moves, or the type of moves you are weak at, at an appropriate level of difficulty (or exertion), then do this first, if you already have a balanced diet.

It's easy to get the movement dialled in for big moves, using pulleys or therabands or whatever else floats your boat.




blamo

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It's easy to get the movement dialled in for big moves, using pulleys or therabands or whatever else floats your boat.


Could you elaborate on this a bit?  I have often wondered what is the best approach to this sort of thing.  :-\

Nibile

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And anyway, bulking is far more difficult than it may appear, especially depending on body type, if you want a good bulk that is mainly due to increased muscle mass.
I wouldn't see the issue in this way, bulking/cutting, because you're not a bodybuilder, you're a climber that's needing some power to up his game.
So, train for power and not for bulk: the two respond to very different stimuli. Power goes with high intensity and low reps, bulk with lower intensity and higher reps (very simplified).
Training for power you'll get power, and some bulk, but with a very high quality muscle.
Training for bulk you'll only get bulk, with that typical rounded and inflated aspect, and no power.

jwi

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^I agree with everything

also like to add its hard to improve power at the same time as loosing weight.

mark s

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agree with nibs,bulk and cut is for bodybuilders not climbers.training hard with weights will see a few kg of muscle a year max.
train for strength not bulk.
its all very well having strong arms but if its too much for your fingers you will snap things and be limited by your fingers strength anyway.
id say i might be one of the strongest on this board,but im one of the shittest climbers.there must be something to take from that

krymson

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cheers guys for the info and feedback.

bulking and cutting is obviously being used a bit loosely here. No one is in a bodybuilding contest here and ineffective bulk is not the goal. The point of the "bulking" phase is simply to have enough resources available to the body that the training effect is maximised during a strength phase.

The corrollary to the "bulking" is the "cutting" which would be reducing the protein and fat content back to maintenance levels  or even less than maintenance and eating more carbs for energy while transitioning your training to something closer to what you are trying to do. Losing the unwanted body mass, including unused muscle mass, by eating whats needed for performance but not more.

I think its easy to get sucked into the muscle = good so we should always be optimizing muscle gains, but my understanding of strength training is that for best gains you want to eat more than maintenance and also be doing high intensity. If you're sport climbing, excess weight and high recruitment is pretty much a recipe for pumping out.

 A sport climber needs strength to do the hardest moves on the route, but otherwise they should be light as they can be and be pulling as soft as they can on the holds. Dare i say it - low recruitment.

It's popular in training to eat and train for strength year round but if you're aiming to do hard sport climbing at your limit i think the bulking is cool but i feel there should be a cutting phase - and thats not just the training but the diet as well.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 12:31:10 am by krymson »

blamo

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I definitely see your perspective.  However, I haven't really found the idea of "cutting" to be very valuable.  I have a (I like to think) fairly decent diet and I generally train for power.  If I starve myself and really work on endurance I find I can cut 5 pounds and along with this see a fairly good improvement in endurance.  :badidea:

However, my power suffers and in the end I spend a week tired and grumpy followed by two weeks trying to get the lost power back.  I could see this approach if you are near your genetic potential.  However, for me personally, I am nowhere near that, so I could spend the three or so weeks just getting better and not mess with the food/craziness that goes with "cutting."

On a side note: I hate climbing with people who are doing the anorexic dance.  They are slow to hike to the climbs, grumpy the whole time, only have energy for a few goes, and then you just listen to them complain about how they are tired and how fat you are after climbing...   :chair:


abarro81

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I do something roughly along the lines you suggest, though I don't modulate protein and carb intake how you're talking about it. Essentially,
Base phase - eat plenty
Peak phase (pre trip) - get light
This allows you to put muscle on and have lots of energy whilst doing the strength work and high volume enduro in the base but be light when it matters

siderunner

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Possibly that Racing Weight book Dave Mac recommends would have something useful on this general subject? Keep meaning to order it ...

Plenty protein and not too much calories esp carbs during a power phase is what I've been doing for the last five weeks. Happy with progress and my recovery rate. At 40 I think day on / day off being ok for campus/threshold bouldering/4 rep weights is as good as I can hope for!

Nibile

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Low calories and low carbs during a power phase?  :-\
I think that the most important things to bear in mind, with sports nutrition, are: the possible long term consequences of sudden and drastic changes in one's diet (especially under the form of metabolic issues, insulin resistance, etc); the importance of what's called "peri-workout nutrition".
The first aspect is the most important, because to tick a project we could really fuck up our metabolims for months; the second is more relevant to performance. We have to eat for what we are going to do. There's no meaning in having low carbs before and intense workout, as there's no meaning in eating a ton of pasta right before spending the whole afternoon sitting on the beach.
So, low carbs, high proteins, etc. per se don't mean anything, they have to be related to the activity. ELEL EMEM are the two guidelines: Excercise Less Eat Less, Excercise More Eat More. We have to teach our body to burn burn burn, and we obtain this by giving our body lots to burn. Most people fail because the team new eating habits - always under the form of reduced calories and carbs - with sudden increase in training. That's the worst you could possibly do. Sudden gains, forever fucked.

Trimming the diet is the trickiest thing, and I think that it's best to resist the temptation of searching for quick gains that are going to be lost in the long term and never gained back.
My 2 cents.

the_dom

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Low calories and low carbs during a power phase?  :-\
I think that the most important things to bear in mind, with sports nutrition, are: the possible long term consequences of sudden and drastic changes in one's diet (especially under the form of metabolic issues, insulin resistance, etc); the importance of what's called "peri-workout nutrition".
The first aspect is the most important, because to tick a project we could really fuck up our metabolims for months; the second is more relevant to performance. We have to eat for what we are going to do. There's no meaning in having low carbs before and intense workout, as there's no meaning in eating a ton of pasta right before spending the whole afternoon sitting on the beach.
So, low carbs, high proteins, etc. per se don't mean anything, they have to be related to the activity. ELEL EMEM are the two guidelines: Excercise Less Eat Less, Excercise More Eat More. We have to teach our body to burn burn burn, and we obtain this by giving our body lots to burn. Most people fail because the team new eating habits - always under the form of reduced calories and carbs - with sudden increase in training. That's the worst you could possibly do. Sudden gains, forever fucked.

Trimming the diet is the trickiest thing, and I think that it's best to resist the temptation of searching for quick gains that are going to be lost in the long term and never gained back.
My 2 cents.

In return, my 2 cents.. I agree with most of this, but my personal experience is that a low carb/high fat/high protein diet, at a relatively 'normal' level of caloric intake, is way more sustainable than a low calorie diet - it's more of a lifestyle than a diet - and that I've not felt underpowered or lacking in energy. That said, it doesn't work for everyone. My fiance, for example, struggled with this kind of diet and hated it, whereas I've noticed a steady weight loss without ever feeling hungry or low on energy.

abarro81

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I presume there's a typo in there somewhere, since otherwise you seem to have just said that you find a normal calorie diet easier to sustain than a low calorie diet. I think most wouldn't argue with that one! :lol:

Nibile

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 ;D The devil is in the details, innit?
I think that the key of the post is the high fat/low carbs thing.
But I'm really getting lost now. As I've said somewhere on here, I've read that the dangerous combination is high fats and high carbs, while the other options (high fats/low carbs and high carbs/low fats) aren't as dangerous in terms of gaining FAT.
But, I can't see why one should prefer to have high fats in the place of high carbs. Carbs are not the devil, if properly taken. Again, it's the timing that makes the difference. Yesterday evening, for instance, I had a huge snack before training, coffee, cookies, a slice of cake. And... BOOM! Mega session, added 1 kg to my weightvest and still could complete all 4 one-footed test problems, I had a good go on the project circuit and then I did hill sprints adding 4/5 meters to the previous distance, at a major angle.
The evening before, I had skipped the snack and had to cut the session before even starting, my head was empty and I could neither concentrate nor pull.
Briefly put, I'd choose a carbs-rich diet over a fats-rich diet all the time, in fact, that's what I do.

blamo

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Seems like there are three different topics going on at once:

1) Optimal calorie, fat, carb ratios

2) Diet changes for different training phases

3) Diet changes for performing

 :shrug:

Or maybe I am just totally out to lunch.


Matt002

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I read an article on sports  nutrition recently, it suggested that the traditional low fat diet advice prevailing over the last decade has an unintended consequence.  People generally end up eating more carbs instead which if you are inactive may as well be refined sugar. Also manufactures of processed foods replaced fats for sugars leading to a rise in obesity and type 2 diabetes.
It suggests fat should not be avoided, as they increase satiety and help control appetite leading to a reduction in overall calorie intake compared to a carb rich diet.
I tried switching some foods I eat based on that advice and found I lost weight, felt fuller between meals and still had lots of energy to train. 



JohnM

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I reckon fat is good for you, keeps you full longer and you don't get the blood sugar level spike you get from refined carbs and sugars.  You can get fat from healthy sources as well like oily fish, avocados and nuts.  The first thing I do after I get up is eat a handful of nuts and down half a pint of water.  This takes the edge off craving sugary cereals etc in the morning.  Then on a non-training day I'll have a boiled egg and pour some nice olive oil and salt and pepper on it.  No mid morning cravings and straight into lunch!   

petejh

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If what a lot of knowledgeable people are saying about sugar is true then it's another tobbaco-industry in the making and the lo-fat / high carbs thing is a food marketing/food industry scandal. By the time mainstream Jo Public catch up with what a lot of smart people already believe about sugar the numbers of people affected by poor health - obesity, inflammatory diseases, diabetes etc. - caused by a diet containing too much simple carbs will be huge.
I eat shit-loads of natural fat - unsaturated and saturated - and I'm lean: 68Kg @ 5'10''. Might just be lucky but I think a lot about what I eat. I cook breakfast in good quality butter 5 days per week; lunch and dinner I hammer the olive oil, avocado, oily fish, nuts, and various other fatty foods from natural sources with as little processing as possible.
I avoid simple carbs like the plaque unless I'm in the middle of some high-intensity output like a long winter climbing day where you sometimes need the immediate sugar hit to avoid boinking.
Pre-workout/climbing day - some wholegrain or other complex carbs from as unprocessed a source as possible and some fat to keep hunger at bay, but very little protein as it makes me feel sluggish. Post workout/day - equal parts protein, natural fats and wholegrain carbs.

Doylo

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I eat sweets and cake.

a dense loner

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and shake like a shitting dog.

 

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