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Strengthening pulleys (Read 14912 times)

abarro81

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#25 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 11:41:15 am
A warning - I find PE work the most susceptible to retweaking recovering injuries since
1. You lose form, twist into holds, dig in hard etc
2. You tend to repeat the same moves multiple times thus pull on the same holds repeatedly...

Schnell

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#26 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 11:45:43 am
Fwiw chain my experience is pretty similar to yours, i.e. endless finger tweaks though not just pulleys. My long-term strategy has been maintaining intensity while ensuring I rest much more than I used to, and generally being very aware of how I'm feeling when I train. This definitely works to some extent though I've had more tweaks since. I recently went to a physio who diagnosed me with terrible posture and shoulder stability issues and though that these were definitely contributing to my litany of injuries. I've been working hard on improving my scapular stability since with a variety of exercises. That was about 5 months ago and I haven't had any new tweaks since, not to imply that's conclusive obviously.

The trainingbeta podcast interview with Jared Vagy has some interesting info on antagonistic exercises for injury prevention if you can stand the interviewing style: https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/tbp-014-physical-therapist-jared-vagy-injury-prevention-treatment/

cha1n

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#27 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 12:22:53 pm
Thanks for the heads up Alex. Do you have any advice on pulley rehab that's worked for you?

Seems like it was a good job I brought my snooker cue up from Bristol as it sounds like I'm going to get bugger all climbing done!

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#28 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 12:28:25 pm
Thanks for the heads up Alex. Do you have any advice on pulley rehab that's worked for you?

Seems like it was a good job I brought my snooker cue up from Bristol as it sounds like I'm going to get bugger all climbing done!

Mixed/Ice climbing. Best pulley cure known to man!

rodma

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#29 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 12:40:47 pm
I'm afraid i can't resist posting yet again with a different slight on things. the below goes for most of the boulderers i have met.
I have had two or three audible pulley fails over 22 or so years of training hard, only one was gunshot loud, the other(s) sounded like i snapped the  (plastic) hold off the wall. all of the above caused discolouration, major swelling etc. but i still have most of my pulleys.

My shit and basic advice is as follows:-

1. Are you sure you have had a string of pulley injuries, since if you have had, you wouldn't have a lot of pulley left?

2. Are you sure you have an injury, what led you to that diagnosis?

3. Do you do regular maintenance on your forearms, or even check them when your pulleys are hurty, to see if they (forearms) are the root cause? it is the forearms of the climber that are the only disproportianately strong part, the rest of us is shit weak compared to a gymnast, or any other bodyweight athlete, theuy require a lot of care and attention, unless you're made of titanium (or are a 21 year old, or are a machine like Nibs).

4. Check your forearms, loosen the tight parts, if pain/tenderness are gone in pulleys, then train like a badger and repeat.




cha1n

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#30 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 12:53:16 pm
My shit and basic advice is as follows:-

1. Are you sure you have had a string of pulley injuries, since if you have had, you wouldn't have a lot of pulley left? Yes, definitely pulley injuries. I let the pulley heal over 3-9 months before resuming crimping again, presumably this is long enough for the tissues to regenerate?

2. Are you sure you have an injury, what led you to that diagnosis?
Acute pain in the A2 region of the finger when the PIP is flexed, nothing when open handed. My assumption is that the tear usually happens at the insertion point on the bone as it's usually worse off to one side. I've only ever had one audible pop and that was an out of the blue injury with no niggles before hand. The others have started off as niggles and I've pressed on and made them worse.

3. Do you do regular maintenance on your forearms, or even check them when your pulleys are hurty, to see if they (forearms) are the root cause? it is the forearms of the climber that are the only disproportianately strong part, the rest of us is shit weak compared to a gymnast, or any other bodyweight athlete, theuy require a lot of care and attention, unless you're made of titanium (or are a 21 year old, or are a machine like Nibs).
I don't generally get problems in my forearms. I used to get a popping sensation in tendon region of my forearms when pulling hard on middle 2 pockets (I settled on this being nodules sliding past tendon sheaths) but got around this by avoiding that grip type, I rarely have to use it. My front two are stronger anyway.

4. Check your forearms, loosen the tight parts, if pain/tenderness are gone in pulleys, then train like a badger and repeat.
I wouldn't mind some clarification from anyone who understands on this one. I don't really understand how forearm tightness could produce acute pain in the A2 region of my fingers.

[/quote]

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#31 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 12:53:43 pm
I posted elsewhere a link to a Meta study that fairly conclusively stated that strength training was the single most effective form of injury prevention. I think Slackers put it on the Wiki.
It was a sports wide study and not climbing specific, but given it's global nature I can't imagine this should be any different for fingers.

I've also been looking at the rate of increase issue and I've come to realise I've always ramped it up far too quickly. Looking at the IOC recommendations etc, a figure of 10% increase week on week, seems like an absolute maximum. Anymore means muscle development outstrips tendon/ligament conditioning leading to serious issues.
So if you do, say, 2 sets of repeaters, on each exercise, this week; then whack it up to three sets next week; you've blown right through that 10% increase all the way to 50%.

That was certainly what I would have done.

Paul B

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#32 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 01:07:44 pm
There's been a lot of sense on this thread. I can't help with the best way to strengthen your pulleys but I do have an opinion on avoiding injury:

I too found that I was being limited(/was crippled) by finger injuries to the point at which I took a long break from climbing as I was fed up of not being able to try hard. Some point along the way I worked out why this had happened; I'd become a very one dimensional climber (something I'm still struggling to adjust to this day). Not only did I have a 'training' mindset but I'd completely stopped taking part in apsects of climbing other than bouldering (and training for that).

Cha1n - do you only boulder (and if so why)? OK, Peak Sport Climbing is essentially bouldery but less so and you'll be a lot less bored during the summer months if you were to partake (even consider the power of Easy TradTM). Your body would also get some well needed rest.

Finger injuries (for me) seem to fall into two categories:
1) Some kind of 'trauma' - a foot slipping, catching a hold very poorly/akwardly etc.
2) Overuse

and I think its useful to try and look at the patterns which cause these (if you're prone to niggles). My understanding is that the blood supply to tendons lags a long way behind their strength gains which themselves are far behind muscular gains. Thus, training in general is always going to carry a decent risk of hurting yourself (?). We may be sh*t weak compared to gymnasts, but their loads are going through bars and rings rather than A2s. If you take a look at some of the gory photographs in one move too many you'll see just how tiny A2s really are!

1 is harder to deal with/prevent and just requires common sense and an awareness of self-preservation at all times. Doing something indoors doesn't matter*

2 is a bit easier; note, increases in volume, increases in intensity even changes in training (venue perhaps) and try and make them as gradual as possible. Avoid throwing yourself at the same thing every session (it helps to have a few projects scattered around), especially when training.**

If you take a look at the Binney/Randall training stuff you'll see a wave pattern where every fourth week is lower intensity; do you do this? do your fingers ever actually get a break?

Maybe the above will slow you down a bit (it certainly did me) but I'd rather be climbing (in any form) than sat with my fingers in contrast baths.

** - I still make these mistakes even though sometimes they should be blindingly obvious.
* - unless it's a named board problem featured in a prominent cult climbing film

cha1n

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#33 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 01:12:53 pm
I did have a stage for a few weeks where I was fingerboarding with 25kg of assistance and I was taking off 1kg per session (max of 3 per week). That was an attempt to rehab a different injured pulley (much worse than the one I tweaked this weekend). It seemed to be going well but I get so bored on a fb (no pun intended).

rodma

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#34 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 01:18:19 pm

4. Check your forearms, loosen the tight parts, if pain/tenderness are gone in pulleys, then train like a badger and repeat.
I wouldn't mind some clarification from anyone who understands on this one. I don't really understand how forearm tightness could produce acute pain in the A2 region of my fingers.


have a root around in your forearm with the other hand, does anything that you do cause the pain to increase/decrease in your pulley when you are doing it. flex and relax the forearm whilst applying preesure to different parts. just bloody try it instead of typing on this thread, if you find nothing interesting, then continue typing on this thread. oh, and be careful not to bruise your forearm whilst rootling around.

Nibile

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#35 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 01:19:29 pm
It will never tire me to repeat that the fingerboard is THE tool to safely train the full crimp. As safely as possible, that is. Working in a controlled manner, loading progressively, loading fingers as evenly as possible, etc.
Far better than working a crimpy problem, with the risk of a foot slipping and a sudden load on the fingers, or joints rotations that change the angle of the pull.
If you want strong pulleys, put your boredom aside and slowly build them on a fingerboard.

mctrials23

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#36 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 02:26:11 pm
If you're sad enough like me then you can convince yourself that you are getting stronger because your fingerboarding is improving even if you are not getting any better at the wall. One day it will all transfer over!

I did my A2 from just hitting it too hard for too long. I had been climbing pretty well and getting better for a while and had just started climbing on a 50 degree board. It wasn't a sudden injury, it was overuse coupled with bloody mindedness.

I would also advocate trying to vary the stuff you climb and not fatiguing your pulleys by repeating the same movements / holds over and over. I have been nursing my A2 for just over 2 months and its getting near to being healed but I am still going to have to be nice to it for at least another 3-4 months before I will be happy its healed properly. In that time I have improved in spite of having to avoid too much crimping so its not necessarily a bad thing having to focus on other styles of climbing.

cha1n

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#37 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 02:38:27 pm
I do sport climb as well but I missed the last sport season. I do generally treat sport as bouldering on a rope though and usually just redpoint short power endurance routes. My last 'route' was a fingery 7c+ in Cheddar which caused one of my last serious pulley injuries but it did siege it for 5 sessions in close succession.

I'm keen to get into trad, though slightly concerned as pulling on the grit in the sun on the weekend was hard enough in these temps so not sure how possible it'll be in the summer!

I suppose I don't really give my body a rest. I usually climb hard every session, with the occasional lower intensity one if a new lower grade circuit goes up at the works, so not THAT often. As you say, route season usually gives me a rest to a certain extent. I used to do a lot of volume in the low 7's on routes but I fear there may not be a lot of that up this way?

I think for now I'm going to stop trying to get big numbers (for me) this winter and concentrate on volume at a medium intensity and see how my fingers feel next winter. It suddenly occurred to me that if I wanted to try and get a 8A before i'm 30 that I've only got until mid August to do so and hoped I could get something done on limestone as the grit is going to be too warm soon.

Appreciate everyone's comments on this subject.

Wood FT

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#38 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 02:44:23 pm


I'm keen to get into trad, though slightly concerned as pulling on the grit in the sun on the weekend was hard enough in these temps so not sure how possible it'll be in the summer!


off topic but as spring arrives lime, mountain and seacliff trad can be one of life's lingering joys at pulley friendly grades

slackline

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#39 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 02:45:44 pm
the grit is going to be too warm soon.

 :lol: You've obviously never heard of Toru Nakajima's amazing summer on the grit!

Quote
Meshuga, E9 6c, Black rocks, climbed in a slight drizzle
Nocturnal emission, E9 6c
Black out, E9 6c, Burbage south, first ascent, solo
Simba's pride, E8 6b, Burbage south, solo
Elm street, E8 6c, Millstone, solo
Brad Pitt, 7C+, Stanage, Flash

He was 15.
Source




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#40 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 03:07:46 pm

If you take a look at the Binney/Randall training stuff you'll see a wave pattern where every fourth week is lower intensity; do you do this? do your fingers ever actually get a break?


Where could I find this?

Paul B

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#41 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 03:19:28 pm

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blamo

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#43 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 04:53:58 pm
Thanks guys!  :2thumbsup:

Paul B

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#44 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 05:03:54 pm
I'd start factoring rest and lower intensity sessions in your plans, otherwise you'r set to self-destruct!

off topic but as spring arrives lime, mountain and seacliff trad can be one of life's lingering joys at pulley friendly grades

See above, trad doesn't have to mean grit (even if you want to stay local) and if you haven't climbed the classics at the likes of Chee Tor and High Tor then you're missing out.

There's also plenty of (good) sport in the low 7s, especially if Cheedale Cornice dries out.

Essentially what Pete said, on a much much wider scale!

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#45 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 05:29:01 pm
I googled last night and couldn't find anything remotely conclusive looking on best intensity...

Try a course with them: https://www.bloso.be/Pages/Home.aspx Trainer A or even B/Sportklimmen should do. But with your training experience, it would just be silly. But there, most trainers seem to agree. Is it science. NO. It is just the small subset of people who practice it, and seem to get results with it. It's also the advice and common sense of the "big books" e.g. the Andersons: Lots of repetitions, less intensity, when the tendons are weak because (and there you can find enough medical information), beacuse they take more time to develop strength than muscle (my personal experience too). Why risk injury with weak tendons/ligaments with heavy intensity, and not just build it up.

To the point. Indeed online, there is not much to find about it, but the statement of jwi has been used for a while by trainers and instructors, and in practice, I've heard of lots of people and experienced for myself it works. Does that mean it is the only theory and works for everybody? Don't think so. I you know that Dave Graham climbed something like 8a or more after just one year (wikipedia). He might have been genetically gifted? Not every bodybuilder who uses the professional training methods actually becomes Mr. Olympia.

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#46 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 06:44:02 pm
OK, lets stop for a second.  Tendons respond somewhat differently to training, and the general consensus seems to be that one of the reasons tendoms recover slower is due to lower blood flow.  As such, it seems to me that increasing blood flow is the functional aspect that helps tendons recover at a closer pace to the muscles, hence the need for periods of lower intensity(higher blood flow, lower stress) to allow the tendons to catch up.  If you look, you'll see many training programs with a low volume of high intensity work, combined with a high volume of low intensity work.  This inherently makes sense to me, as you're using the low intensity work as active recovery to improve the recovery of the tendons.  None of this moderate intensity at all. 

In my experience the "moderate intensity" is the bane of healthy strength.  And this is the most common form of climbing you see.  People climbing stuff they can do in a few goes or a short session, and doing it day after day because they can and they're addicted to climbing.   As a youth, or even in your 20's, your body can recover from this much better.  as you get a bit older, it'll stop doing so. 

abarro81

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#47 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 07:36:39 pm
Thanks for the heads up Alex. Do you have any advice on pulley rehab that's worked for you?

As has been mentioned, fingerboarding is always the safest, both in initial stages (very easy to be strict open handing) and rehab stages (to break half-crimp and crimp back in and then strengthen it). Sometimes shit just takes a long time. I'm only just getting back to full crimping after 18 months of being injured; it sucks, but it happens. I've missed 2 full seasons of British sport over the last 5 seasons due to being out through finger issues, you just have to find ways to work around it (usually means training for a trip to somewhere with big holds for me!)

RE: trad - grit trad is the poor man's trad. Don't worry about temps going up for trad, embrace it because it means you can climb on proper routes!

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#48 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 10, 2015, 08:42:15 pm
J.B. should be along anytime now . . .

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#49 Re: Strengthening pulleys
March 11, 2015, 01:59:44 am

3. Do you do regular maintenance on your forearms, or even check them when your pulleys are hurty, to see if they (forearms) are the root cause? it is the forearms of the climber that are the only disproportianately strong part, the rest of us is shit weak compared to a gymnast, or any other bodyweight athlete, theuy require a lot of care and attention, unless you're made of titanium (or are a 21 year old, or are a machine like Nibs).

^^^^^^ <<<< This!

Get some accupressure rings from ebay or something, whether its placebo or not I find they speed up recovery from finger soreness brilliantly. Also just the general health from shoulder to tips has been improved from regular massage. You kind of sound like you are at a loose end and self-massage is free (I would buy a lacrosse ball or something similar and get stuck in)

 

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