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Fingerboarding - Chest/back (Read 12494 times)

Sasquatch

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#25 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 05, 2015, 08:08:47 pm
Carry on as is.  If your core/shoulders/pecs are weak, then it'll be good for them to get stronger, and youll still see finger benefit.  If your fingers are actually the weak point(as Rodma suggests), then you're training the right thing. Either way given the lack of time to actually climb, carry on FBing. 

mctrials23

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#26 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 05, 2015, 11:46:10 pm
Doesn't sound like you are doing anything weird and at the level you are bouldering I wouldn't worry too much about what is holding you back. Keeping doing what you are doing and whatever is weak will improve.

StillTryingForTheTop

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#27 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 06, 2015, 09:12:19 am
Thanks all :) Will just keep doing what I am doing and review again in a few months

spam

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#28 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 03:43:32 pm
Some weird logic in these posts...  People suggesting that if you can hang 1 armed off a jug then shoulder strength isn't the issue... I have no idea of the physiology of why pull strength is affected by hold size, but if you don't believe it try rock climbing sometime.

I have given you the answer, it's  a lack of finger strength  :wall:

no weird logic from me, just many people's brains (or egos) aren't ready to accept that their fingerstrength is lacking, even though they have tested it by trying to lock off and have failed. the reason you lower down is to prevent yourself from slipping off, you tend not to carry on applying the power as the grip is failing, instead you back off, it's the same with your feet on.


I don't think it is just fingers.  I do repeaters with added/removed weight, similar to the OP, so that my fingers always fail within the last set of 6x(7s on/3 off);  so any difference in grip strength should be evened out this way. On open 3 fingers I have no trouble keeping my scapula retracted and shoulders down for all 6 sets, even though I have added weight.  On 3 finger 1/2 crimp I am fighting (and failing) to keep my shoulders from being pulled up so high that they feel like they are going to choke me out after only 30 seconds, even though I have weight removed.  The fingers don't fail until the minute is up, and if I feel like abusing my shoulders I can finish the set. I don't have the same problem doing monos with weight removed, even though they are my weakest grip by weight. Make sense?

Sasquatch

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#29 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 04:27:07 pm
Fingerboarding should always be done with good form.  If you can't keep your shoulders back, then you've already failed and should stop.  You're asking for a shoulder injury at that point.  Cut the ego out, and ALWAYS maintain form.  As you said, it's not the shoulder strength, so why are the shoulders coming up? it's so that you can change the pulling function to compensate for your fingers not being strong enough.    It is the finger strength.

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a dense loner

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#31 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 04:52:57 pm
No it's not. Dave graham has got more or less the strongest fingers out there, I'd pay good money to see him hang one armed face on on a crimp

Sasquatch

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#32 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 05:10:08 pm
Failure to maintain shoulder/scapula control on a two arm hang is not the same as one a 1-arm hang. 

If you can easily control the shoulder/scapula retraction on a similar weight/hold open handed, and you're failing to maintain shoulder/scapula control on a two arm 1/2 crimp hang, it's because you're on a hold smaller than what you should be on, or at a heavier weight. Drop the intensity, regain the shoulder control, then build back up while maintaining form.   

Dense, one armed hangs are different, and everyone here is talking about 2 arm hangs at the moment. 

kelvin

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#33 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 05:30:59 pm
To be fair to Dense, some of us were talking about one armers earlier...

Nibile

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#34 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 05:50:26 pm
Failure to maintain shoulder/scapula control on a two arm hang is not the same as one a 1-arm hang. 

Dense, one armed hangs are different, and everyone here is talking about 2 arm hangs at the moment.
Jesuschrist I was about to have a nervous breakdown at the thought that all my one armed dead hangs were cheating because of the shoulder - and bicep - engagement.
Be sure to check your words guys, there's a sensible audience out here.

a dense loner

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#35 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 05:56:26 pm
Oh shit, I thought we were on one-arms. I retract my statement then Sasquatch  ;)

fried

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#36 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:05:22 pm
Be sure to check your words guys, there's a sensible audience out here.

You write in English much better than I do, so I'm only commenting because you once asked for mistakes in your writing to be pointed out, unless I dreamt it. Also it's the second time I've noticed it; sensible is a faux amis in French, so I imagine it's the same in Italian, the word you need is 'Sensitive', again I'm only mentioning this as it might be helpful as you need to write inportant stuff in English.

Nibile

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#37 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:13:10 pm
Read. My. Mind.
Was thinking about it seconds after pressing Enter, then got back to work and forgot it. The right word was escaping me though.
Thanks for the reminder, yes, I asked to be corrected in my English errors, and I asked that ages ago, so congrats to your memory as well, I appreciate it.
 ;D

Nibile

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#38 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:24:24 pm
it might be helpful as you need to write inportant stuff in English.
Thanks again Fried, but I think you could be overestimate my needs... The most important things I write in English sound like "10 secs on small rung with X kg YYFY" on my fake 8a account.
 ;)

spam

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#39 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:31:20 pm
OK, lots of disagreement with what I posted.  Since it is not off topic to the OP, I'd love to learn something here. 

Firstly, I fully agree with all the comments regarding keeping form and dropping the weight if you can't. However, I don't understand why the majority feel that it has to be finger weakness that is causing the failure to keep the scapula retracted in certain grip positions. 

 I regularly fail on 3 finger half-crimps because I can't keep the shoulders down.  My fingers aren't failing.   My fingers can keep going for another 3x(7s/3s) if I am willing to sacrifice my shoulders (I don't... well maybe I did once or twice).

I've also experienced the opposite situation, usually on monos or shallow pockets, where my finger(s) open and fail, but my scapulae remained retracted.  So it doesn't feel like shoulder retraction is linked to grip the way you are suggesting.

I have insanely sore back muscles between my scapulae from my recent finger board workouts that seem like excellent anecdotal evidence to support my opinion that the hang board does not isolate the forearm muscles, and that shoulder retraction can be a point of failure.  Holding shoulder retraction for 6x(7s/3s) off of jugs is easy, so presumably shoulder retraction must be harder off of certain grip positions?

BTW, I am a weak old man, but I have been hang-boarding a while. I am still inclined, to believe that different grip positions render holding scapular retraction more difficult.  Can anyone explain why this contention is wrong, and it can only ever be fingers?

rodma

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#40 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:53:37 pm
Monos are easy to drag the sides of rather than pulling straight down

Sasquatch

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#41 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 06:54:52 pm
I can maintain shoulder/scapula stability whilst adding 50kgs on an 18mm edge.  If I go to a 14mm edge, I start to lose the form.  Why?  Prehension is exactly the same, so the only change is in edge size.  It's obviously finger strength.  I can't speak to your situation, as I'm not there to see.  Changing prehensions changes the angle of pull on your wrists/elbows/shoulders so each prehension changes the engagement of the shoulder just a little bit, so comparing across prehensions is difficult.   

There's little doubt that FBing is a full body workout, enaging everything but the legs. 

Everything I know about FBing (both read and experienced) indicates you should be maintaining good scapula/shoulder control throughout the hang - either 1 armed or 2 armed.  When I let my ego take charge, I continue adding weight, which I can hang, but I have to drop the shoulders at the end to finish the hangs.  This has led to minor shoulder impingement issues both times.   I'm nearly 100% certain it's not a shoulder scapula weakness, rather that I'm trying to hang a hold that my fingers can't do while maintaining form. 

I've not done very much 1-arm FB training, so I can't speak to it as well.  I can't do a 1-arm pullup (yet), and can barely manage a 1-arm lockoff.  As such, I find it very difficult to maintain what I would consider good form while trying 1-arm hangs, hence no 1-arm FBing for me yet.  I'm working 1-arm pull strength now, and hoping to move into 1-arm FBing this summer or next fall.   

For me, I do find that my finger strength has been the limiter every time for 2-arm hangs. (although if I decided I wanted to two arm hang on a jug with 80kgs, then maybe it would be my shoulders/pull muscles)

Nibs, I've always uinderstood that you want bicep/shoulder/ull engagement, so I think your one-arms are 100% legit :)

abarro81

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#42 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 07:58:08 pm
I regularly fail on 3 finger half-crimps because I can't keep the shoulders down.  My fingers aren't failing. 

I don't really understand what you guys mean about shoulders and scapula and all that, but isn't this along the lines of the erroneous logic that 'my elbows go up to the sky when I'm pumped so it must not be my finger flexors that are pumped'?

Sasquatch

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#43 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 09, 2015, 08:10:08 pm
I regularly fail on 3 finger half-crimps because I can't keep the shoulders down.  My fingers aren't failing. 

I don't really understand what you guys mean about shoulders and scapula and all that, but isn't this along the lines of the erroneous logic that 'my elbows go up to the sky when I'm pumped so it must not be my finger flexors that are pumped'?
Exactly :)

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#44 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 10, 2015, 07:50:22 am
Fingers are not always the limiting factor though, for example I can't hang the 45s on the BM2K, however if some puts a single finger in my back and pushes my body under the holds more, providing no upwards force at all, I can. I have seen this demonstrated on several people, so for me on 45s it is definitely core not finger strength.

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#45 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 10, 2015, 08:18:39 am
... on 45s it is definitely core not finger strength.
Except, it isn't.

Sorry  ::)

The model you are picturing is physically speaking wrong on several levels.
The two most important ones are, that first of all any horizontal force applied to your body while you are hanging on a partially vertical hold, does increase the friction and therefore makes it easier for you (simulating stronger fingers).
Take a book and hold it against a wall. If you let go it drops. If you provide only horizontal pressure with one finger, it stays on the wall - without getting a stronger core or fingers itself ;)

The more important one though, is that the 45°s are only 45 in relation to dead vertical.
By having someone push you, you are basically changing your own alignment. Think of your body as a straight line with your hands a fulcrum. By having someone push you you are changing your own alignment from 0° to -10° for example. This makes the 45°s in relation to your body 45°-10°=35°.
And 35 require less fingerstrength than 45 as we all know...

So your core has - at least in this regard - nothing to do with you being able to hold the slopers or not, it's your fingers  :)

The good news is, now you know what to train  :2thumbsup:

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#46 Re: Fingerboarding - Chest/back
March 10, 2015, 08:59:27 am
Makes sense :)

 

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