[StillTryingForTheTop]

Don't think this has been covered on here before, but hard to search on my phone via tapatalk

Trying to get back in to training, and want to start fingerboarding again, had one session last Saturday and I am in an odd situation where my fingers are not the weakness when fingerboarding

During the workout, on the smaller holds, I fall off before my fingers fail, I believe based on the aches the following day or two that my back and chest are struggling to stabilise my body in order to stay on the medium crimps (Beastmaker 1000). I am fine on the jugs / deep crimps

My question is, will I make faster progress if I train my back / chest first, and if so what should I do?

Or, should I continue to fingerboard as I do and my finger strength will improve once my stability does?

With regards to my current training plan on the fingerboard, I do repeaters, 6 reps of 7sec on, 3sec off with a 2 minute break. I do 3 sets on the jugs, then 1 set on the deep crimps as a warm up, then drop to the medium crimps for the workout, aiming to do 6 sets on those. Initially I can hang them no problem but it goes down hill rapidly and as I say I think it is my stability that is holding me back more than my fingers.

Cheers
Gary

[tomtom]

When I get back into FBing I find its my biceps/triceps - and the muscles over the top of my shoulder (forgotten name) that ache most/give up first.. this is NOT straight arming stuff..

Core also takes a pounding to start with.. If its too much to continue - try having one hand in the big slot the other on the crimp and alternate etc..

[Nibile]

Are the crimps you struggle on a bit rounded or slopey?
If they are, and you struggle on them but are fine on the incut ones, maybe it's because the rounded edge requires extra squeezing with arms, shoulders and lats to stay on. If you stick at it, you'll have overall progress.
I strongly advise not to train chest and shoulders before.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Just to clarify, by before I don't mean before fingerboarding on the same work out, I was wondering if I would see faster progress spending say a month training chest/shoulders etc in some way, and then focusing on finger strength.
It sounds like just to stick with the routine as is though, and build up the difficulty more steadily by using alternate hands on different grips
EDIT: Yes, the beastmaker crimps are quite rounded / slopey

[rodma]

Can we be clear about a couple of basics here.

if you are fine holding the larger holds, without your fingers camming against the sides of the hold in any way, then it is your fingers that are the weakness, not your chest/back, otherwise these would be holding you back on the bigger holds as well.

years ago i used to think i had strong fingers, since i was good at fingery routes/problems and could hang off smallish holds two-handed. i could not hand one-armed from even a reasonably small hold without doing a weird rotation failure nose dive descent back onto the mats, but could do about 3 one-armers on a jug. i aslo thought i was lacking somewhere other than my fingers, even though i patently wasn't.

with two hands on, it is very easy to cheat by nestling, or camming, or whatever, unless your pecs are tired/weak.

fingers, fingers, fingers, train em and don't believe that you are strong enough to hold something smaller than you actually can if the evidence is pointing the opposite way.

[kelvin]

Can we be clear about a couple of basics here.

if you are fine holding the larger holds, without your fingers camming against the sides of the hold in any way, then it is your fingers that are the weakness, not your chest/back, otherwise these would be holding you back on the bigger holds as well.

years ago i used to think i had strong fingers, since i was good at fingery routes/problems and could hang off smallish holds two-handed. i could not hand one-armed from even a reasonably small hold without doing a weird rotation failure nose dive descent back onto the mats, but could do about 3 one-armers on a jug. i aslo thought i was lacking somewhere other than my fingers, even though i patently wasn't.

with two hands on, it is very easy to cheat by nestling, or camming, or whatever, unless your pecs are tired/weak.

Weird rotation nose dive descent... someone convinced me this year that I should be able to hang the medium campus rail one armed because I can do two armed mono pull ups. Tried. Failed. Blamed the weird rotation thing being due to weak shoulders. In hindsight, it's down to my fingers - I can hang one armed on a jug.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Maybe it is my fingers, all I know is that as I tire during the work out it is my shoulders that drop and post work out it is my chest and back that ache, hands / forearms are fine.

I think the issue is the extra work my core needs to do to keep me stable under the smaller holds, you can't be as sloppy as you can on the jugs

Either way, seems the advice is just to continue fingerboarding for this session

Can we be clear about a couple of basics here.

if you are fine holding the larger holds, without your fingers camming against the sides of the hold in any way, then it is your fingers that are the weakness, not your chest/back, otherwise these would be holding you back on the bigger holds as well.

years ago i used to think i had strong fingers, since i was good at fingery routes/problems and could hang off smallish holds two-handed. i could not hand one-armed from even a reasonably small hold without doing a weird rotation failure nose dive descent back onto the mats, but could do about 3 one-armers on a jug. i aslo thought i was lacking somewhere other than my fingers, even though i patently wasn't.

with two hands on, it is very easy to cheat by nestling, or camming, or whatever, unless your pecs are tired/weak.

fingers, fingers, fingers, train em and don't believe that you are strong enough to hold something smaller than you actually can if the evidence is pointing the opposite way.

[blamo]

With regards to my current training plan on the fingerboard, I do repeaters, 6 reps of 7sec on, 3sec off with a 2 minute break. I do 3 sets on the jugs, then 1 set on the deep crimps as a warm up, then drop to the medium crimps for the workout, aiming to do 6 sets on those. Initially I can hang them no problem but it goes down hill rapidly and as I say I think it is my stability that is holding me back more than my fingers.

Just to be clear you do 4 sets of repeater hangs to warm up.  After this you do 6 sets of repeater hangs on the SAME hard for you grip?  Are you failing entirely on sets or just the last reps in a given set?

Would you have the same difficulty if, after your warm-up, you did 2 sets of repeater hangs per grip on 3 different grips?

[tomtom]

Jugs and deep crimps are different holds on the BM1K..

[a dense loner]

It's not as easy as it's just fingers kelvin, anyone can hang one-armed on a jug, not just climbers, anyone. I suppose I'll have to put the useful caveats of people who aren't dead or in a coma yet. This is one of the reasons I barracked Pete about hanging one-armed straight on  doing this is nearly infinitely harder than "just" hanging one-armed underneath. The finger strength hasn't changed, all the muscles, fibres etc are just being worked in a different way.
Yes, I'd continue to FB Gary. You'll just improve. It'll be a good feeling when your chest/back are no longer the weak link 
The biggest thing I'm finding with this forum now is as soon as one person suggests something two people are bringing out studies to shoot it down. Basically you can't go too far wrong with actually not listening to what most people say and just do something.
Not just to do with climbing either!

[rodma]

but, lee, if you can lock off face on on a jug and can't on a wee hud and blame your shoulders, then you've been assuming the wrong weak link, no one was talking about hanging straight armed with no shoulder involvement.

anyhoo, just train, train, train 

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Warm up is jugs x3, with each set I am moving forward on the hold so using less / increasing intensity, deep crimp is up to second finger joint. After this I switch to the middle depth crimp, which is just less than my first finger joint.
As the sets go on, I struggle to hold the crimp for the full 7 seconds, lasting longer on the first rep and then switching back to the deep crimps for the remainder of the set.
Previously I was mixing grips, 3 sets of crimps, followed by 3 open hand, followed by 2 slopers, but crimping has been identified as a weakness of mine as I open hand everything when climbing so been advised to train crimps for a while

[blamo]

It sounds like you might be having a hard time dialing in the correct intensity.  Your first hang in a set might be too hard and then you switch grips to something that might be too easy.  If you are not already, you might consider adding or removing weight.  The RCTM has a fairly detailed discussion on repeaters.  You could also just get the info from their blogs:

http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2012/08/30/hangboard-faq-0-what-is-a-basic-hangboard-routine/

Good luck with it!

anyhoo, just train, train, train 

  Don't get too caught up in the details.

[Fultonius]

Gary,

What kind of level are you at?

By the sounds of things you're doing your repeaters 2 handed, yes?

If so, I think you (if it's feasible) spend all your time climbing and don't bother with fingerboarding for now.

[spam]

Despite finger boarding being touted as a way of isolating finger strength, there are plenty of times where I have failed on a repeater set not because I can't hold on anymore but because I can't hold my scapulae/shoulders down.  This is the worst for me on half crimps and crimps, and not quite as bad open-handed.  E.g. I have no problem with scapular retraction using 2-finger pockets, even if the same weight is being used as the 1/2 crimp. 

  I think that continuing to hang when your shoulders pull up is asking for injury.  Not sure if this is the same issue you are having.  I cannot relate to chest strength being an issue, and it is not clear to me what you are doing to engage your chest; are you partly locked off and squeezing your arms together?

Some weird logic in these posts...  People suggesting that if you can hang 1 armed off a jug then shoulder strength isn't the issue... I have no idea of the physiology of why pull strength is affected by hold size, but if you don't believe it try rock climbing sometime.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Cheers

It sounds like you might be having a hard time dialing in the correct intensity.  Your first hang in a set might be too hard and then you switch grips to something that might be too easy.  If you are not already, you might consider adding or removing weight.  The RCTM has a fairly detailed discussion on repeaters.  You could also just get the info from their blogs:

http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2012/08/30/hangboard-faq-0-what-is-a-basic-hangboard-routine/

Good luck with it!

anyhoo, just train, train, train 

  Don't get too caught up in the details.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Yes, I am doing the hangs 2 handed

My level, although hard to quantify exactly as I mainly climb indoors, is sport 6c+ (desperately trying to get 7a) and v3/4 bouldering although have got the odd v5 and one v6

I agree, should be climbing more but (and for the same reason I have now sold the sports car and am buying a golf), family life means my actual climbing time is limited to two sessions a week, on a Saturday morning when my lad sleeps I can sneak in a quick fingerboard session but unfortunately don't have time for much else

Gary,

What kind of level are you at?

By the sounds of things you're doing your repeaters 2 handed, yes?

If so, I think you (if it's feasible) spend all your time climbing and don't bother with fingerboarding for now.

[StillTryingForTheTop]

Sounds like you are similar to me,

Not sure myself re my chest, I think I am just tensing everything in order to stop myself swinging about under the holds

I cannot relate to chest strength being an issue, and it is not clear to me what you are doing to engage your chest; are you partly locked off and squeezing your arms together?

[kelvin]

Not sure myself re my chest, I think I am just tensing everything in order to stop myself swinging about under the holds

Are you actually hanging when you fingerboard Gary? Or locking off at 90deg or something? Might have something to do with it?

Anyways - the new routes are all soft... no excuse not to do 7a now ;-)

[fried]

With regards to my current training plan on the fingerboard, I do repeaters, 6 reps of 7sec on, 3sec off with a 2 minute break. I do 3 sets on the jugs, then 1 set on the deep crimps as a warm up, then drop to the medium crimps for the workout, aiming to do 6 sets on those. Initially I can hang them no problem but it goes down hill rapidly and as I say I think it is my stability that is holding me back more than my fingers.

Just to be clear you do 4 sets of repeater hangs to warm up.  After this you do 6 sets of repeater hangs on the SAME hard for you grip?  Are you failing entirely on sets or just the last reps in a given set?

Would you have the same difficulty if, after your warm-up, you did 2 sets of repeater hangs per grip on 3 different grips?

I'm probably bouldering about the same level as you, but unless our terminologies are completely different I'm confused. You do 10 sets of 6 hangs? I do 2 sets of 6 hangs and this takes about 40/45 mins, I can't believe you spend 4h BMing.

I'm certainly not criticising your routine, just interested from the perspective of someone at the samish level.

I do 2 sets of 6 hangs (6 reps x 6secs on/ 3 off) I start with 1 hang jug, 1 hang 4 finger deep, 1 hang front 3 deep, 2 hangs 4 finger deep, 1 hang jugs. I usually just fail on the second set and have to resort to jugs to finish. You seem to do a lot of easy sets, it could well be me misunderstanding BMing completely though.

[rodma]

Some weird logic in these posts...  People suggesting that if you can hang 1 armed off a jug then shoulder strength isn't the issue... I have no idea of the physiology of why pull strength is affected by hold size, but if you don't believe it try rock climbing sometime.

I have given you the answer, it's  a lack of finger strength 

no weird logic from me, just many people's brains (or egos) aren't ready to accept that their fingerstrength is lacking, even though they have tested it by trying to lock off and have failed. the reason you lower down is to prevent yourself from slipping off, you tend not to carry on applying the power as the grip is failing, instead you back off, it's the same with your feet on.

i have a similar problem whereby i used to be able to flick around a lot whilst campussing on small edges, but now i have to be more static. simple answer, my finger strength has dropped off over the years and i can't apply as much power, so have to "sneak" my way up. don't get me wrong, i can still one arm a small rung and it is a better, fuller one-armer than years ago, but being able to flick/cheat/kip a one-armer demonstrates greater finger strength, than being able to do it slow and sloth-like

[kelvin]

It's not as easy as it's just fingers kelvin, anyone can hang one-armed on a jug, not just climbers, anyone. 

  As an aside, this took me almost 18 months to achieve from when I first started climbing - probably why I'm shit at climbing (totally irrelevant to this thread).

This is the best advice.

and just do something.

[Fultonius]

Yes, I am doing the hangs 2 handed

My level, although hard to quantify exactly as I mainly climb indoors, is sport 6c+ (desperately trying to get 7a) and v3/4 bouldering although have got the odd v5 and one v6

I agree, should be climbing more but (and for the same reason I have now sold the sports car and am buying a golf), family life means my actual climbing time is limited to two sessions a week, on a Saturday morning when my lad sleeps I can sneak in a quick fingerboard session but unfortunately don't have time for much else

Gary,

What kind of level are you at?

By the sounds of things you're doing your repeaters 2 handed, yes?

If so, I think you (if it's feasible) spend all your time climbing and don't bother with fingerboarding for now.

Fair enough - if you're limited on "climbing time" then fingerboard away!  Warming us is really difficult on a fingerboard - make it really easy for a while (feet on a chair, pulley assistance etc.).

[StillTryingForTheTop]

I would say I hang with maybe a 10 or 20 degree bend in my arms, I just pull up enough to engage my arms / shoulders / back etc and try and keep the rest of my core solid, can show you next time we are both at the Pin

Ps, don't want an easy 7a, want a Pinnacle 7a

Not sure myself re my chest, I think I am just tensing everything in order to stop myself swinging about under the holds

Are you actually hanging when you fingerboard Gary? Or locking off at 90deg or something? Might have something to do with it?

Anyways - the new routes are all soft... no excuse not to do 7a now ;-)

[StillTryingForTheTop]

With regards to my current training plan on the fingerboard, I do repeaters, 6 reps of 7sec on, 3sec off with a 2 minute break. I do 3 sets on the jugs, then 1 set on the deep crimps as a warm up, then drop to the medium crimps for the workout, aiming to do 6 sets on those. Initially I can hang them no problem but it goes down hill rapidly and as I say I think it is my stability that is holding me back more than my fingers.

Just to be clear you do 4 sets of repeater hangs to warm up.  After this you do 6 sets of repeater hangs on the SAME hard for you grip?  Are you failing entirely on sets or just the last reps in a given set?

Would you have the same difficulty if, after your warm-up, you did 2 sets of repeater hangs per grip on 3 different grips?

I'm probably bouldering about the same level as you, but unless our terminologies are completely different I'm confused. You do 10 sets of 6 hangs? I do 2 sets of 6 hangs and this takes about 40/45 mins, I can't believe you spend 4h BMing.

I'm certainly not criticising your routine, just interested from the perspective of someone at the samish level.

I do 2 sets of 6 hangs (6 reps x 6secs on/ 3 off) I start with 1 hang jug, 1 hang 4 finger deep, 1 hang front 3 deep, 2 hangs 4 finger deep, 1 hang jugs. I usually just fail on the second set and have to resort to jugs to finish. You seem to do a lot of easy sets, it could well be me misunderstanding BMing completely though.

Confusing terminology on my part probably, I do 10 sets. Each set is of 6 hangs, each hang is 7sec on, 3 sec off, so takes 1 minute. 2 minute rest between, total workout time of 30 minute on this program.