[mctrials23]

I didn't get the impression that any of the old stuff from the arch would get moved to the new place when it closes because there is no room for it. They will probably take it to the new place in North london but that leaves us with a largely uninspiring single arch venue in the south.

[mctrials23]

I mean I dont agree that there's plenty of good setters out there, esp not for the amount of time youd need them in a centre that's got a decent turnaround of problems.

Nonsense. I'm a fairly inexperienced setter and I'm MUCH slower than the pros.

You also seem to have started out complaining that they use the staff to set rather than dedicated setters, but in the quote above are arguing for using the staff? Or have I misunderstood?

London has a lot of walls so there must be plenty of route setters knocking about. It sounds like other walls manage it.

And yes, if you take a lot of time and care to set your problems you may take a lot longer than the pros. That doesn't mean everyone does.

I have obviously explained my point poorly. I thought you stated that its not that much cheaper to have in house staff setting routes than it is to get the pros in to do it. I was making the point that the staff do it in their spare time on days that they would be there anyway. Even if they get them in on a day they wouldn't normally be working, it would cost a fraction of the amount a pro would.

[Duma]

I mean I dont agree that there's plenty of good setters out there, esp not for the amount of time youd need them in a centre that's got a decent turnaround of problems.

Nonsense. I'm a fairly inexperienced setter and I'm MUCH slower than the pros.

You also seem to have started out complaining that they use the staff to set rather than dedicated setters, but in the quote above are arguing for using the staff? Or have I misunderstood?

London has a lot of walls so there must be plenty of route setters knocking about. It sounds like other walls manage it.

And yes, if you take a lot of time and care to set your problems you may take a lot longer than the pros. That doesn't mean everyone does.

And yes, I have obviously explained my point poorly. I thought you stated that its not that much cheaper to have in house staff setting routes than it is to get the pros in to do it. I was making the point that the staff do it in their spare time on days that they would be there anyway. Even if they get them in on a day they wouldn't normally be working, it would cost a fraction of the amount a pro would.

Ah, ok. yes it would certainly cost more, not arguing that. Though at the walls I go to the staffing levels are not such that you could get much setting done without getting more people in.

The fact that other walls are lucky/pay enough to get good setting doesn't mean that there's loads more good setters "knocking about" - as I said, I reckon you'd need them for a couple of days every week.

Caveat - I know nothing about the London walls specifically.

[mctrials23]

Ah, ok. yes it would certainly cost more, not arguing that. Though at the walls I go to the staffing levels are not such that you could get much setting done without getting more people in.

The fact that other walls are lucky/pay enough to get good setting doesn't mean that there's loads more good setters "knocking about" - as I said, I reckon you'd need them for a couple of days every week.

Caveat - I know nothing about the London walls specifically.

Based on roughly 10 circuits changing once a month you would need 10 days a months of routesetting which would indeed be 2-3 days a week. If you used the staff to help out with the lower grade circuits you could easily get that down to 2 days a week, probably less. The other danger of using staff to set is that eventually they are likely to move onto other things. You train someone up to be a competent routesetter for a few years and then they leave and you have had 2 years of OK routes and you are back where you started.

[a dense loner]

So what's your point?

[mctrials23]

My point is that the idea that you can train up routesetters from your pool of staff and end up with great routes and save lots of money in the process is is probably a bad one. If this is the ultimate plan as opposed to simply "we want to save money" then its just going to end up with mediocre routes indefinitely.

[Oldmanmatt]

My point is that the idea that you can train up routesetters from your pool of staff and end up with great routes and save lots of money in the process is is probably a bad one. If this is the ultimate plan as opposed to simply "we want to save money" then its just going to end up with mediocre routes indefinitely.

There is unlikely to be infinite scope for an increase in the market for independent route setters.
Neither does it seem to be a great career choice, in as much as most seem to only set part time as a hobby job.

In fact down here, most work at other walls...

[a dense loner]

Training people from your current staff sounds self defeating. Your current staff should be busy else you're just pissing your money up the wall, from an owners pov. Sometimes being busy is actually standing around chatting to customers.

[tomtom]

AFAIK its about £200-300 per day for route setting?

Interesting in the economies of volume and scale -

IE, I've been to the Dunne wall in Reading - was £11 (eek!) last time I was there and busy - so £200 isnt a massive chunk of your cost - its probably rent and a whole host of other things being in the expensive SE...

A smaller, more (ahem) regional wall (local wall for local people ) may only charge £5 or 6 for entry - not be as busy - so your £200 is a much greater slice of the pie.. given that the London walls seem (from whats said on here) expensive and busy... erm shirley the cost of a setter is proportionately not so great?

[jfdm]

I didn't get the impression that any of the old stuff from the arch would get moved to the new place when it closes because there is no room for it. They will probably take it to the new place in North london but that leaves us with a largely uninspiring single arch venue in the south.

I don't work for the Arch just a punter. At the moment you can't really complain about things?
Maybe when there is just "building one" to climb in later this year, but at the moment if you consider them together rather than separately.
It is an impressive set-up?

I always thought that the original idea for the two "Arches" was that they compliment one another?
Which I think that they do?
With Building One and the Arch there is now double the area, for routes and training.
Things can be a bit samey, but for me I am still learning a lot about technique and movement to complete circuits.

With regards setting, a friend who has loads more experience than me often gives feedback to setters at the Arch.
A couple of times he has mentioned that the setters have often got shirty with him when he does this.
He thinks that there should be more crappy footholds and intermediates rather than the big blobby holds and massive moves.
Agreed on a slab there is nothing worse than trying to commit to something knowing you will castrate yourself on a massive hold if you fall.

As a teacher in the holidays I go during the day time, when routes are being set.
I once asked one of the setters about how they set, and the answer was a little ambiguous.
Along the lines "I look at the holds and the length of the problem."
So maybe it is an art rather than science?

When traversing mid-week, one of the main setters was faffing about and as I was moving along he propped up his ladder against the wall.
As I approached I asked politely if I could climb above/below the ladders.
Was told in no uncertain terms "no."

At the Arch the setters don't appear to be very approachable/friendly?
Nobody likes to be criticised, put I think that they should be willing to at listen?
Maybe I am wrong about this but that is the impression I get?

I still think that a classic circuit of outdoor routes set indoors would be quality.
So you can actually train on something and then go and do it outdoors.
I know that a while ago Neil Gresham did this at Westway - set the Font "Karama" problem - its on the tinternt somewhere?

[tomtom]

At the walls I've been to whilst setting has been in operation the 'sector' being set has been roped/cordoned off...

Sounds a bit sketchy (better call Sol...) just wanging a ladder up amongst the punters...

[a dense loner]

2-3 hundred a day! Are you on drugs tomtom? No one gets paid that, maybe in London but that's not a real place
A lot of setters do set outdoor problems indoors jfdm, well as realistic as they can

[abarro81]

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that jfdm's use of question marks is infuriating

[jfdm]

At the walls I've been to whilst setting has been in operation the 'sector' being set has been roped/cordoned off...

Sounds a bit sketchy (better call Sol...) just wanging a ladder up amongst the punters...

This happens when comp wall is set or when things are busy.

Go mid week, its quiet, so I think that they don't rope off areas.

I just thought to myself, move the ladder for 30 seconds and I would be gone!
In the end traversed back round the other way.

[jfdm]

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that jfdm's use of question marks is infuriating

????
Jesus - abarro
i always thought that if you ask a question you put a question mark at the end of it i didn't realise that you would take offense to my punctuation are you a setter at the arch by any chance didn't realise that there are now rules and regulations for posting here

difficult to read without it

[tomtom]

2-3 hundred a day! Are you on drugs tomtom? No one gets paid that, maybe in London but that's not a real place
A lot of setters do set outdoor problems indoors jfdm, well as realistic as they can

Chance'd be a fine thing

Thats what I'd heard one wall owner say he paid.. could be was for a team of two though... Pass the jellies...

[Oldmanmatt]

2-3 hundred a day! Are you on drugs tomtom? No one gets paid that, maybe in London but that's not a real place
A lot of setters do set outdoor problems indoors jfdm, well as realistic as they can

Correct.
No details, but there is a usual fee plus milage.

I don't know, but it might be possible to survive on this alone 'op North but not in the SW.

[petejh]

Of course but everyone down there lives on cream teas and cider and that stuff doesn't come cheap.

Jfdm - rising intonation. It's like listening to someone from the US?

[cha1n]

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that jfdm's use of question marks is infuriatbing

I'm Ron Burgundy?

If you read your post back there's you'll a lack of questions? 

[ghisino]

I once asked one of the setters about how they set, and the answer was a little ambiguous.
Along the lines "I look at the holds and the length of the problem."
So maybe it is an art rather than science?

what did you expect?
Of course it's more art than science.

btw  i find it very amusing whenever a fellow setter is asked that question.
Answer i've listened so far fall in two categories:
-embarassed mumbling
-bullshit

[jfdm]

Of course but everyone down there lives on cream teas and cider and that stuff doesn't come cheap.

Jfdm - rising intonation. It's like listening to someone from the US?

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that jfdm's use of question marks is infuriating

Hey, you two, wheel-abarro and peat
Have a look at this, hope it makes you think
You have hi jacked the thread, and are off topic

Anything Else?
Don't resort to critcising people's grammar or spelling when arguing/debating - firstly it's rather scraping the insults barrel; secondly people often type to forums quickly whilst at work, etc; and lastly some people may be dyslexic.

You do know Bubba
Notice no question marks

[abarro81]

Ironically, 'You do know Bubba?' would be an entirely justifiable use of a question mark.

[jfdm]

Ironically, 'You do know Bubba?' would be an entirely justifiable use of a question mark.

You are off topic.
 Check out Bubba's link let me know your thoughts "?"
By starting a new thread titled grammar and punctuation.

[petejh]

I checked Bubba's link:

(Elaine, 51, from Egg Buckland, Devon)

Not really my cup of cream tea.