[Sloper]

Whenver I go to a gym, I suddenly pass from flashing everything at a certain grade, to being unable to climb a single problem at the following grade.
Every setter has his trademark, so I know that if I go to gym X everything harder will be on fat greasy slopers, while at gym Y the distance between holds is proportional to the owner's 2 meters span, etc.

Do you think this has anything to do with the setters relative ability?  E.g. if a setter consistently boulders a certain grade and they try to set something above their limit it is all over the place?

Hmmm, tough one.
Setter's ability is a clue factor: I've learnt that every setter has a home advantage while climbing on his wall, knowing the holds and the move patterns. It's rare if not impossible to find the acrobatic and complex setting that is en vogue in most excellent gyms. So, things get a bit chaotic when they set hard things for others. 
Then I think it depends on two external factors: the relatively low angle of the walls that we have, and the lack of holds.
The angle makes it tricky to set hard without resorting to razor crimpfests that no one likes, so every hard problem will be strange moves between horrendous slopers. Which I hate. Especially if the gym owner leaves the holds caked in chalk and never clean them except when they strip the wall for the Summer closure.
The lack of holds makes it difficult to set with a progressive increase in difficulty because there are no options. In a certain zone of the wall you either have a jug or a crimp and maybe that's all. So a problem which passes through there, is going to be easy, or brick hard, or plain ugly with a nasty sequence and then a jugfest or vice versa.
I saw one of the guys at work some weeks ago; his setting style was this one: starting jug, reach as far as he could for whichever hold was at max span (he's a lanky mofo), then move feet, always at full stretch, reach again as far as physically possible to whichever hold, etc.
No good.
On the other hand, I went to a friend's board two weeks ago, very overhanging, with cool, fun problems set rock-style, and I had great fun and a good Ego massage.
I've always had great fun when bouldering in UK gyms. In Italy, I found that only at King Rock in Verona. That is brilliant.

Its been a good 10+ years since I've been setting but I'd say there's a lot of truth in what you say: it doesn't matter how good a setter you are, if you've got a load of old +/or shit holds that aren't clean then you're going to struggle. I can remember when Deg splashed out on a load of holds and they quality of problems set by all setters when through the roof.

The other point about setting is that you need experience and maturity i.e. setting for the customer and not your own ego.

I had a session at the Climbing Hangar the other week and and while some problems were excellent many in the V2-4 range had stupid reaches, the first foothold at waist level and so on and some were barely AD+ which I put down to lazy setting and a lack of experience.  But at least they weren't playing 'street' music at an obnoxious volume.

[Oldmanmatt]

I just watch the video tour on the web site.

There seemed to be a good variety of features and angles and I reckon I could set some interesting stuff on that long roof; without turning it into a juggy stamina fest.
It seemed like more of an attempt to utilise an awkward part of the building and as such it has potential to be interesting.

I like the look of the place and greatly envy their space and budget.

I'd guess the setting will improve as the setters get the feel of the wall.

[Duma]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

Thats what they do at TCA bristol, which is one of the (many) reasons why it sucks balls.

Just over the road at Bloc bristol they employ this cailean harker chap specifically as a routesetter in chief (who I think is a real tit and hugely full of himself btw, in case it sounds like they're my mates at that wall) and the problems there are fantastic. Its funny how places like TCA seem not to realize that setting matters!

Joe and Dan are both paid specifically to set at tca. Some staff also set, as do a few regulars that have been invited to. Cailean is a nice guy, you're just jealous he's so pretty.
If you'd like to elaborate on your issues with tca I'd be interested in a pm to avoid dragging this off topic.

[jakk]

Honestly I was disappointed by the new arch building for many of these reasons, the walls themselves don't seem too well thought out, with the overhangs all preceded by a 2m long flat roof section right by the ground making them a proper pain in the ass and the training area a bit of a let down really. I also didn't get along with the setting but I put that down at the time to something personal in the style, haven't gone back though.

There are actually also plenty of good walls for trying to improve in London. I train at the westway which contrary to above has the walls reset each month at generally a pretty high quality and which we keep well stocked with a spread of hard stuff for whoever to get on with. Otherwise Vauxwall has an excellent board and encourages you to try hard, mile end has a nails "v6-v8+" circuit and a wonderful board room, and the castle has one of the best overall training and improving atmospheres around.

IIRC the arch north will be at burnt oak, pretty far north but I guess they've found there's a market to have it there

[AlistairB]

Two people have now said that the Westway has good setting, has hell frozen over recently? 

Agree that TCA Bristol is a prime example of awful in house setting but then to counter this, most of the two Depots setting is done by Rob and Tom who are in house and they're always quality. I think that you just need to have employees who can actually set which seems surprisingly thin on the ground. The letting anyone have a go approach is far too common and generally disastrous (see AW Sheffield bouldering for example  ).

Seems like a lot of walls don't understand the value of good setting. They'll have good surface area and angles and nice new holds and then ruin it all by having horrid problems. Good setting makes for loyal customers, agree with what other have said about interesting easy circuits making a huge difference to begginers experiences too. Makes them a lot more likely to get into it from what I've seen.

[ghisino]

The other point about setting is that you need experience and maturity i.e. setting for the customer and not your own ego.

that's especially true for the head setter (unless there is one guy setting everything).

Someone needs to keep an eye on thw whole picture and see how each route/boulder fits into the gym's offer, in terms of style/difficulty but also in more pragmatic terms
(any conflicting colours? Are the falls safe or there's a risk of swings into a dihedral/helicoptère over spotter's heads? etc)

a paris bouldering gym recently had an interesting experience in this regard.
10 very talented setters were called for the gym's opening.
they were given awesome holds and a very nice wall.
however, they were not provided any form of headsetting.
Result: the easiest lines were warmups for 7A boulderers. The hardest, world cup qualifiers. 8 intermediate "circuit" levels were used, meaning that some circuits were of very close difficulty - too close actually.
All boulders were overly challenging as they all required anything a climber could be asked at that grade, in terms of technique, physical ability, commitment to the move. There was nothing to please the weak technical master, nor for the purely physically strong.

Result: in 2 weeks time, the gym was empty... only good climbers looking for a hard session were going there.

[Three Nine]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

Thats what they do at TCA bristol, which is one of the (many) reasons why it sucks balls.

Just over the road at Bloc bristol they employ this cailean harker chap specifically as a routesetter in chief (who I think is a real tit and hugely full of himself btw, in case it sounds like they're my mates at that wall) and the problems there are fantastic. Its funny how places like TCA seem not to realize that setting matters!

Joe and Dan are both paid specifically to set at tca. Some staff also set, as do a few regulars that have been invited to. Cailean is a nice guy, you're just jealous he's so pretty.
If you'd like to elaborate on your issues with tca I'd be interested in a pm to avoid dragging this off topic.

He is pretty, there's no doubt. Ah well, I guess Joe and Dan just suck! Since TCA opened i've repeatedly tried to give constructive criticism about it, but it was always ignored.

Now Bloc has opened there's no need to fret about it, though i'll slag it off given any opportunity. Bloc has a few faults, like the board's not very good, but its generally a fantastic wall. PLUS its got a head route setter who is extremely competant AND very pretty.

[cha1n]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

Thats what they do at TCA bristol, which is one of the (many) reasons why it sucks balls.

Just over the road at Bloc bristol they employ this cailean harker chap specifically as a routesetter in chief (who I think is a real tit and hugely full of himself btw, in case it sounds like they're my mates at that wall) and the problems there are fantastic. Its funny how places like TCA seem not to realize that setting matters!

I've only been to Bloc once and I wasn't overly impressed by the setting on that occasion. I know Cailean is a talented climber but I'm not sure what his credentials as a setter are. I know he worked at the Gloucester wall prior to Bloc which doesn't exactly have a great rep for amazing setting. He seems like a motivated guy though, I'm sure his setting skills are improving all the time.

I found the entire wall to generally be a bit too vert, also didn't love the holds they use. The works is certainly worlds apart in terms of setting, even if bloc has a much better space. It's funny how just because you have a really nice looking centre, it doesn't mean it's going to have good setting. The works always looked shit to me but the setting is far superior to anywhere else I've climbed indoors.

I must admit that I have a bit of a soft spot for TCA as it's where I started climbing, I will admit that the setting can be off sometimes if Joe and/or Paul are away for a while. I think it's good that TCA offer to teach some of the regular climbers/staff how to set, sometimes it's going to work out and sometimes you're going to get a bunch of ladders for problems. I think part of the problem is letting people with no creativity set or people who haven't climbed outdoors much and don't have a massively repertoire of moves to draw experience from. It's up to the owners/head setters to have the courage to say someone's problem is shit I suppose, I must admit that I'd find it hard telling someone that.

[Three Nine]

Interesting, i've never really rated the Works setting as a rule, or at least anything Percy Bishton had a hand in.

A lot comes down to personal taste I guess.

[fatneck]

I rate the Hangar setting generally and I'm pretty sure all of it is now done by in-house staff. They have very experienced people in charge of the setting (The Dark Knight and Psyche) and no one sets who hasn't been coached by these guys. The problems are tested by staff but they also have a "test pilot" system where anyone can register to get a form and give their feedback on the setting. This works well (except when BenF fills them in from where ever he currently is on his extended Euro trip that is) and leads to a consensus from regular users. The management are always keen to listen and try to improve things and they have to be lauded for this...

I disagree with Sloper about everything the reachiness of the easier problems and high starting foot holds? You need to get more flexible

[chris20]

I'd say the works is the best indoor wall I've climbed at for quality of problems, even the easier grades are interesting and worth doing when the new circuits go up.  I have recently been getting psyched on bouldering at the foundry but mainly because after a session there I feel battered so it must be good for getting strong

[galpinos]

I climb a bit at Stockport wall, and they often have Vickers and Cassidy set there - what impresses me most about their setting is that the easy problems, warm ups and up to V4, are interesting.. ie they may be 'easy' but they make you think about the problem and do some interesting/different/varied moves..

I would say that Vickers and Cassidy's setting at Stockport is a bit formulaic (there's only so much high step and rockover moves my unflexible hips can take), it's never bad, always of a good standard but a bit same-y. I've really enjoyed Tom and Alex Fry's sets on the steep side, totally different styles and nthey take me more out of my comfort zone. Having said all that, the setting is consitently better than Rockover but they both migvht suffer when the Depot arrives in town.....

[tomtom]

I rate the Hangar setting generally and I'm pretty sure all of it is now done by in-house staff. They have very experienced people in charge of the setting (The Dark Knight and Psyche) and no one sets who hasn't been coached by these guys. The problems are tested by staff but they also have a "test pilot" system where anyone can register to get a form and give their feedback on the setting. This works well (except when BenF fills them in from where ever he currently is on his extended Euro trip that is) and leads to a consensus from regular users. The management are always keen to listen and try to improve things and they have to be lauded for this...

I disagree with Sloper about everything the reachiness of the easier problems and high starting foot holds? You need to be less short

[Duma]

Out of interest, how many people on this thread have experience of setting? (not making up problems from the holds already on the wall) I do think that setting well, and in a variety of styles, across a large grade range, is a very difficult, and not common skill. Neither is it easily teachable. I'm not sure there's a big pool of setters with all the above attributes available for walls to just hire when they need a reset, plus I know TCA are setting ~40problems a week, as well as the circuits and comps, guess this is similar to other walls? FWIW I think both Joe and Dan at TCA are very good, esp Joe, but both have a particular "type" of problem they tend toward, so if you don't get on with that you'll have an issue.

[andy_e]

I do, my problems were mostly horrendous crimpfests as that's what I like. I doubt they were particularly good problems!

The best route setters I know have been at it for years and are very good outdoor climbers. I think this is the key skill for making good problems, being able to replicate rock movements using wood and plastic blobs.

A lot of walls seem to go down the route of "let's buy three awkward pinchy massive plastic blobs for £80" and then don't have any room in the budget left for small holds. This greatly limits what route-setters can do, even the good ones would struggle to come up with something good if every hold is an awkward pinch.

[fatneck]

I do too. 3+ years at AW Liverpool. Really enjoyed it and felt that the more I climbed outdoors, the better I got. I'd agree that setting well, and in a variety of styles, across a large grade range is difficult. Plays hell with your confidence/ego too! I also rate the Works and have never come across so many awful foot holds in one (indoor) place, I expect the two things are related and would welcome more of this at the Hangar...

[mctrials23]

Absolutely none bar some setting at a local wall a long time ago when they refused to pay anyone to reset.

I don't doubt that its hard but if you are a wall getting hundreds of customers a day and charge £10 to get in per customer then you have some obligation to try and set good problems. There are plenty of good setters out there, certain walls are just choosing not to pay to have them set because it costs them £40 to get one of their staff to do it and a few hundred plus to get a proper setter in.

[Duma]

There are plenty of good setters out there, certain walls are just choosing not to pay to have them set because it costs them £40 to get one of their staff to do it and a few hundred plus to get a proper setter in.

I do think that setting well, and in a variety of styles, across a large grade range, is a very difficult, and not common skill. Neither is it easily teachable. I'm not sure there's a big pool of setters with all the above attributes available for walls to just hire when they need a reset

We'll just have to disagree then - I don't think that's the case, certainly when you'd basically need to employ them 2/3 days a week.

[petejh]

Finally, talk to the owner/setters in a polite manner and explain your concerns. It'll go down better than complaining on here (sorry Climbingworks).

Threads like this should be gold dust to receptive climbing wall managers/owners.

It's worth rememebring that climbing walls are businesses which charge climbers to use a product, and the product is (should be) high quality routes and problems. If a wall's routes/problems are sub-standard then they should be made aware of it by whatever means because it creates an opportunity for them to be better, which is in everyone's benefit (cost-permitting). Other products walls charge for are group use and kids parties, which may bring in as much income but the quality of those doesn't concern me yet! 

I don't see any problem with publically highlighting poor route-setting/walls as long as it isn't unfounded, overly negative or just having a moan.
Lots of people are more comfortable airing their views in writing rather then approaching someone they may not know well or might not want to risk offending with a misinterpreted comment. I think that during or just after a sesh, the mind is likely to be more focussed on enjoyment/performance than on thinking through well-reasoned, constructive, positive criticism about why the V2-5 circuit isn't very good.

That's why walls have feedback forms, or should do. But a lot of people don't use them - probably because people are paying to go to a wall to enjoy themselves or get a training benefit rather than filling out customer satisfaction forms, however short the process. So web forums are a natural place to reflect and air views from the comfort/boredom of home/work.

In N.Wales, the Indy has great setting on its probs. They're lucky enough to have talented in-house setters (Nodder, Jon and Mason). There's a good mix of basic power, subtle movement and craft on various angles throughout the grades. The setters' knowledge of climbing movement comes through in their problems.

The Beacon has very good routes which mostly seem well set. But I've found the problem-setting at The Beacon consistently uninspiring over the past 18 months I've been an occasional visitor. This strikes me as a massive waste of potential given the space they've set aside for bouldering. The Beacon could be the best indoor bouldering venue in N.Wales, as well as having the best routes. It just needs better setting. As it is they're behind The Boardroom and Indy in terms of setting quality. I'm guessing there's probably a case of the same person trying or being asked to do too much.
Specifically, too many boring ladders in the low grades - not interesting or creative enough to teach beginers much more than pulling on a jug, with variations of angle often determing the grade. Nor are the low grade problems interesting enough to make them fun as warm-ups for stronger climbers. Good climbing feels enjoyable to climb whatever the difficulty and whatever the level of climber. In the higher grades there are too many basic power problems and not enough craft.
The campus board is in the middle of the bouldering and gets in the way of people doing problems - move it to a training room. (the training room is decent - nice one!).
The upstairs bouldering feels like an afterthought.
The routeing roof is an interesting concept, but perhaps too reliant on jugs to be relevent to UK bouldering? I'm unconvinced but I haven't used it enough to form an opinion good or bad. Probably more relevent to sport-climbers intent on a Greek roof route than UK blocs.

[tommytwotone]

Absolutely none bar some setting at a local wall a long time ago when they refused to pay anyone to reset.

I don't doubt that its hard but if you are a wall getting hundreds of customers a day and charge £10 to get in per customer then you have some obligation to try and set good problems. There are plenty of good setters out there, certain walls are just choosing not to pay to have them set because it costs them £40 to get one of their staff to do it and a few hundred plus to get a proper setter in.

Always something that's interested me (as I've always harboured a dream of running my own wall!)...so what's the going rate for a "decent" / "proper" setter then?!

[mctrials23]

We'll just have to disagree then - I don't think that's the case, certainly when you'd basically need to employ them 2/3 days a week.

What do you mean? They have 2-3, sometimes more staff in the centre at one time to cover the various tasks involved in running a centre so if 1 or two of them are setting for half the day then they are just getting more use out of the staff they would already be paying for. Inexperienced route setters are not that much slower than the pros and if their staff set a circuit over 2 days by setting during quiet periods of the day then they have got a new circuit for nowt.

Lets be honest, its not a full throttle go go go job working at a climbing centre. If you have 4 staff you only need 2 of them on the front desk. I would imagine that some of them are happy to do it in their own time as well so that they can set some stuff they want to climb.

I have seen them going round the arch setting with a couple of staff members and a proper setter a few times and other times I have seen them going round on their own.

[Oldmanmatt]

A lot comes down to personal taste I guess.

Nail > head

I guess I'm the head setter, on the basis it's me who goes around and changes the things people moan or might moan about as well setting myself.

I'll go poke my head above the parapet too.
Please don't shoot me.

Over the last two years, I have developed the sneaking suspicion that people complain most when they feel unable to complete a circuit that they feel they should be able to finish easily.

This doesn't preclude genuine, worthwhile, criticism; there is always room for that and things don't improve without it.

But...

Change things often. People moan things were changed before they finished their project.

Leave a circuit up a week longer than the setting calendar. People moan you don't reset often enough.



Opt to have no texture on the walls. People complain they can't smear. (On a 30* overhang? That would be some impressive body tension (yes, I've had that one)).

Texture a bit of wall? People complain about skin/boot rubber loss.

Set some ladders for newbies? Get slagged off for pandering too much to novices.

Let kids in? Get moaned at for making it a "kinder garden"

Keep kids out? Get moaned at by parent X who wants to introduce their offspring to the sport they love.


On the other hand, it is devastating when you do get a bad set. I wouldn't hesitate to rip it down and here nothing stays up until it's been tested by a good variety of people.

Paul Twomey from TCA B has set here and it was a great set.

[Rocksteady]

Interesting thread. I use the Arch as my alternate wall for bouldering as it's generally easier for me to get to the Westway.

I've been to the new area twice. Once observation is that they've reused many parts from the old/original Arch that was at London Bridge. Stuff like the barrel slab I thought was a bit rubbish there and is still rubbish now. The endurance tunnel is fun but not something I'd ever use - it's so steep and juggy it's nothing like any route I've ever seen/would be likely to try. Nowhere near as useful for endurance training as proper circuit boards - which they used to have at the original Arch. I can see why they'd want to reuse it though.

I agree that the old Biscuit Factory area is better than the new one in layout, especially the comp wall and the board. There's nothing so good in the new area, and I hope when the old area closes they move in some of these segments.
On the whole I thought the setting was OK in the new area, though I've only been twice. It's always a bit soft at the Arch and I found that I could flash a few things in the white V5-7 circuit which I can't on real rock or in most other centres. But I thought the problems on the whole were pretty good. The only think I didn't like were the slabs - I managed to hit my chin on a jug falling off a slab problem, which is (a) something I'd imagined before but never seen or thought to be a realistic outcome and (b) bad setting. Jugs on slabs wtf?!

Often problem setting is a matter of taste? I think real quality setters are rare. That said, I think all the London walls have a variety of quality problems - at Westway, Liam Halsey sets very good hard steep problems (and good routes at all grades), I always found Yann's setting fun at the Arch, and I always have a good time visiting Mile End and the Castle. Grading highly variable but it's all subjective. The most important thing for quality setting is to have a group of people testing the problems and the setters willing to listen and adjust their style/problem/grading as a response to feedback.

[Duma]

There are plenty of good setters out there, certain walls are just choosing not to pay to have them set because it costs them £40 to get one of their staff to do it and a few hundred plus to get a proper setter in.

I do think that setting well, and in a variety of styles, across a large grade range, is a very difficult, and not common skill. Neither is it easily teachable. I'm not sure there's a big pool of setters with all the above attributes available for walls to just hire when they need a reset

We'll just have to disagree then - I don't think that's the case, certainly when you'd basically need to employ them 2/3 days a week.

We'll just have to disagree then - I don't think that's the case, certainly when you'd basically need to employ them 2/3 days a week.

What do you mean? They have 2-3, sometimes more staff in the centre at one time to cover the various tasks involved in running a centre so if 1 or two of them are setting for half the day then they are just getting more use out of the staff they would already be paying for. Inexperienced route setters are not that much slower than the pros and if their staff set a circuit over 2 days by setting during quiet periods of the day then they have got a new circuit for nowt.

Lets be honest, its not a full throttle go go go job working at a climbing centre. If you have 4 staff you only need 2 of them on the front desk. I would imagine that some of them are happy to do it in their own time as well so that they can set some stuff they want to climb.

I have seen them going round the arch setting with a couple of staff members and a proper setter a few times and other times I have seen them going round on their own.

I mean I dont agree that there's plenty of good setters out there, esp not for the amount of time youd need them in a centre that's got a decent turnaround of problems.

Inexperienced route setters are not that much slower than the pros

Nonsense. I'm a fairly inexperienced setter and I'm MUCH slower than the pros.

You also seem to have started out complaining that they use the staff to set rather than dedicated setters, but in the quote above are arguing for using the staff? Or have I misunderstood?

[slackline]

Not surprising Matt, how does the saying go...

"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time" - John Lydgate

...or should that be...


"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." - Abraham Lincoln

Complaining is easy, transforming it into something constructive is a challenge most don't bother with.

As I wrote above, if the facilities are available varying the venue you go to climb indoors, just as you would outdoors, is a good strategy.