[mctrials23]

I climb at the arch in london at the moment and they have just opened up a new centre close to the old one. At first I was happy that they had a new centre with seemingly more interesting shapes and volumes than the old place. There is a traverse wall, a long inclined cave and a massive overhang that must be nearly 30ft long.

I have split my time between there and the old place roughly 50/50 but I am getting pretty bored of the new place already. Much of the new types of wall are largely pointless for getting strong for bouldering and take up valuable space that the centre doesn't have. The traverse wall is barely used beyond warming up. The long roof is barely used period and is so overhung that its a jug / stamina fest and the massive 30ft long wall is the same.

Like the wall I used to climb at in Norwich they have decided that its better to save money than to maintain the quality of their routes and get a lot of the setting done by their staff. The result of this is setting that is poor quality a lot of the time and where moves are very height and build specific. The grading is also all over the place.

I know this is a bit of a whinge but do all walls suffer these issue. The guy who owns the place is a really nice guy but it seems to have lost quite a lot of the aspects that a) made the old wall great b) are required by serious boulderers.

[a dense loner]

Walls don't make any money off serious boulderers so would be foolish to market to them

[mctrials23]

I understand that 95% of the people that climb at most walls can boulder no harder than V4 but that doesn't really explain many of the choices they make. Setting in house results in poor quality routes for everyone and the people most affected are probably those who haven't been climbing long. My missus is quite short so finds it a bit disheartening when the easy stuff has been set with holds miles away from each other with poorly conceived feet.

And the parts of the new arch that the better climbers don't care about are the same areas that the weaker climbers don't go near because they are too long / hard for them.

[Three Nine]

I live in Oxford and believe me, you have nothing to complain about. I can think of tons of commercial walls with really good setting which are perfectly adequate facilities for 'serious' boulderers.

City Bloc in Leeds
The Foundry in Sheffield
The Westway in London
Bloc in Bristol
Depot in Nottingham

i'm sure there are many others

[mctrials23]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

[Nibile]

The problem that I mostly see in the rare occasions in which I go to a bouldering gym, is that the setters - usually the gym owners, that never have an official certification for setting - cannot distinguish between setting problems for themselves, to train on them, and setting for the clients.
Whenver I go to a gym, I suddenly pass from flashing everything at a certain grade, to being unable to climb a single problem at the following grade.
Every setter has his trademark, so I know that if I go to gym X everything harder will be on fat greasy slopers, while at gym Y the distance between holds is proportional to the owner's 2 meters span, etc.
If there are enough holds on the wall I try to set something for me to work on in the session, otherwise I just jump from a problem to another cursing everyone.
That's why I rarely leave my board.

[Paul B]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

Interestingly I've been to the Climbing Hangar a few times recently and have been fairly impressed with the setting, a lot of which is done in house (I believe). I'm not sure why in-house necessarily equates to cr*p setting, it just needs good quality control.

For instance I was allowed loose on the Wave (of all things) with an impact driver and then Rob (who I rate highly as a setter), I (and others) would test and the problems would be tweaked to the benefit of all.

If a wall has just expanded massively (it sounds like this is the case) then there's a need to do a lot of setting fast (not to mention buying a tonne of holds). Chances are things may have been rushed this time around (not ideal) but it doesn't mean it'll always be so.

Finally, talk to the owner/setters in a polite manner and explain your concerns. It'll go down better than complaining on here (sorry Climbingworks).

[blamo]

Whenver I go to a gym, I suddenly pass from flashing everything at a certain grade, to being unable to climb a single problem at the following grade.
Every setter has his trademark, so I know that if I go to gym X everything harder will be on fat greasy slopers, while at gym Y the distance between holds is proportional to the owner's 2 meters span, etc.

Do you think this has anything to do with the setters relative ability?  E.g. if a setter consistently boulders a certain grade and they try to set something above their limit it is all over the place?

[Oldmanmatt]

I think your best course is to speak to the management.

I would listen.

Don't go in there with the "your staff are crap" line though. Make a reasoned critique and remember that there might have been several people who quite liked the set(s).
Setting is a pain and an art, not a science.
Last time we reset our V1-V3 circuit, everyone raved about it. Then we got a snotty mail complaining that every thing was set too "lanky". I went and measured the reaches and had my 9 year old daughter and some of her friends test them.

Nothing was reachy.

We were advised, from all sides, not to build a roof as "they never get used". So we didn't.
12 months later we built two roofs, after much moaning and they are by far the most popular features.

If you want your setting to improve, then the staff need to gain experience and feed back.

We usually let the junior staff set the lowest (VB-V0) circuit. The next two are usually set by a collaboration of senior staff and sponsored climbers (taking us to V3) and the top two regular circuits are set by guest setters. We have a further two circuits set by sponsored climbers as "challenge" problems that tend to be ridiculously hard.

But guest setters don't come cheap.

[mctrials23]

Saying that all the routes are crap is obviously a huge overstatement but the general quality has dropped over the past few months and they seem to get more and more circuits set by their staff. I have seen them go round with a guest setter a few times and they don't seem to change many things. Its pretty hard to go round 30 problems and say "this should change and that should change and you shouldn't do that" etc so I think some things are left as they are because they "go".

With regards to people setting above their ability, I don't think that is as big an issue as trying to set well below your grade. If you can climb V7/V8 its really hard to set good problems that are V0. Especially if you aren't short and new to climbing. You can see how much people enjoy routes at this grade when they are thoughtfully set and you can also see where the route setters have tried to do that but failed. Its great that they are trying to make them interesting but when they fail you usually see lanky guys who can climb them easily but in the wrong way and short girls who struggle to get up them and then get disheartened because someone who hasn't climbed before is zipping up things they can't do.

There doesn't have to be an issue with using in house setters and I'm sure they will improve but its a little frustrating when the current situation is that they are not very good or consistent.

[slackline]

Vary the wall you go to.

[cowboyhat]

Walls don't make any money off serious boulderers so would be foolish to market to them

Exactly though this is even more the case down here.

Coincidentally only yesterday my colleague, (who by her own admission is an unambiguous squash is busy punter), was complaining about the setting at the new Arch wall.

So there must be something in it. I imagine you're looking for different things so they've got it wrong a both ends. Pauls point about them throwing it together is probably correct.

[benno]

I climb at the Arch too, and have to admit I haven't been blown away by the setting in the new place, either. In tandem with it being a skin-munching dystopia in there due to every hold being brand new, I've only been in a few times and have reverted to going back to the old bit. That said, they haven't reset anything since it opened yet, and I'm sure setting everything at once on a wall that the setters have never used before is bound to lead to a dip in quality. Give it a few months for the regular setting schedule and some more imaginative use of the features to emerge and it'll get much better, I reckon.

[mctrials23]

Give it a few months for the regular setting schedule and some more imaginative use of the features to emerge and it'll get much better, I reckon.

I'm hoping this is part of the problem but they are spreading the setting over the two walls so each circuit is getting reset every 2-3 months. When the old wall closes later this year I am going to be a sad camper. I really like the old place. Its still a much better wall than the new one and I am going to miss the competition wall, 50 degree board and general setup of the walls.

[T_B]

I went to the Arch once last year and thought the setting / wall in general was dire. How do you handle the heat for a starters!

At the risk of sounding like Dave Macleod, move somewhere where climbers live and there are decent walls? You can't expect everything that London has to offer and good indoor climbing shirley? 

To be fair Yann Genoux sets good problems

[mctrials23]

I went to the Arch once last year and thought the setting / wall in general was dire. How do you handle the heat for a starters!

At the risk of sounding like Dave Macleod, move somewhere where climbers live and there are decent walls? You can't expect everything that London has to offer and good indoor climbing shirley? 

To be fair Yann Genoux sets good problems

The heat in summer is pretty brutal at the old wall. Super sweaty. The setting obviously fluctuates in quality but I haven't had too many complaints about it as a whole. There is always the odd circuit that isn't great but most of them are good. The new centre and the change in setting recently has meant it has taken a serious turn for the worse.

I would live somewhere more northern but my other half works in London and needs to be here for a few more years at least.

[Three Nine]

That is kind of my point. Its not as if there is a shortage of talented setters out there, they are simply choosing to save money by using their staff to do it on the cheap.

Thats what they do at TCA bristol, which is one of the (many) reasons why it sucks balls.

Just over the road at Bloc bristol they employ this cailean harker chap specifically as a routesetter in chief (who I think is a real tit and hugely full of himself btw, in case it sounds like they're my mates at that wall) and the problems there are fantastic. Its funny how places like TCA seem not to realize that setting matters!

[Paul B]

Funny, he came across as a thoroughly nice guy at Buoux even when suffering on Bout du Monde in the full on sun. On that note, Antoine was a good setter too...

[tomtom]

Whenver I go to a gym, I suddenly pass from flashing everything at a certain grade, to being unable to climb a single problem at the following grade.
Every setter has his trademark, so I know that if I go to gym X everything harder will be on fat greasy slopers, while at gym Y the distance between holds is proportional to the owner's 2 meters span, etc.

Do you think this has anything to do with the setters relative ability?  E.g. if a setter consistently boulders a certain grade and they try to set something above their limit it is all over the place?

I climb a bit at Stockport wall, and they often have Vickers and Cassidy set there - what impresses me most about their setting is that the easy problems, warm ups and up to V4, are interesting.. ie they may be 'easy' but they make you think about the problem and do some interesting/different/varied moves..

Citybloc in Leeds consistently has excellent setting (its in house I believe) and there again the easy problems are also excellent and challenging..

I think its also slightly defined by the shapes of the wall (some walls have shapes/angles that lend themselves to certain types of problem - and only certain tyyes) and also things like whether the walls are textured or smooth (which can lead to too many smeary problems if the walls are heavily textured).

Brand of hold can also make a difference - some are sharper/more interesting than others.. Places like the Depot (leeds) have an interesting way with loads of regular sets and a beastmaker wooden hold set of problems too...

I also like (alot) the circuits they used to set at the Depot (they may still do) that have 20 odd problems that start at V1 and go up to V6 in order around the wall (ie clockwise) so you can start on these as a warm up and they get progressively harder. Great idea...

[jfdm]

Having been an avid climber at the Arch for nearly 2 years.
I have nothing but good things to say about the place.
Having this wall has encouraged me to get back climbing!

Yes, sometimes the setting and grading can be all over the shop.
But this happens wherever you go?

But generally it is pretty good - there is always something to do and work on?

In the past the Arch used plenty of guest setters.
Obviously the new place costs quite a bit, so they saved money by not having guest setters.
As others have comment I am sure this will change given time.

With regard to the new/old place. I am with you in that I love the old place.
The walls feel higher and the problems more interesting - at the moment.

With regards to the old place closing later in the year.
I hope they take the training/circuit/comp boards and use them when they open the Northern Arch? This will open when the old one closes?
I hoping this opens near were I work in North London.
Then I can still use both with a monthly membership.

With regards setting I do think that they set to type.
One thing that I think they should do is a classic circuit.
We're they recreate classic outdoor problems in doors - using outdoor names?

The other problem especially when short is the lack of intermediate holds especially for feet.
Outdoors there are always alternatives?
But this is never considered when setting indoors?

Have you been to Westway purely to boulder?
It is shit, circuits not reset for months, chalked up holds all gunky.
Finally they charge the earth exactly the same price to boulder as to lead climb.
Apparently they are going to extend the back room but whenever I've been it is rank.

Mile End, setting is meant to be good, but would take me extra time to get there - over an hour. It is supposed to be good - historical the place to boulder in London before it was hip.

There's nothing worse then making 5 moves to the next hold and failing and then some bean pole just reaches up and does it in one? And can understand your partners disappointment.

Keep the faith and practise and hopefully those holds will soon be in reach!

I do feel though that we are lucky to have both open at the same time and can pick and choose what we want to do? Fingers at the old place, more powerful stuff in the new?

[i.munro]

Walls don't make any money off serious boulderers so would be foolish to market to them

Exactly though this is even more the case down here.

I'd suggest that London is the one place this might not be true. There are now (off the top of my head) 7 bouldering walls within an hour of my office all overcrowded at peak hours and all chasing the same non-climber section of the market.

If only 10% of customers at each wall are there to train that's plenty of potential customers for a wall that focussed more on the needs of the more established/regular climber.

[mctrials23]

Both "arch" climbing walls are busy in the evenings and the old one was ridiculously busy a lot of the time before the new one opened. I would wager that plenty of people didn't bother going in the evenings for just that reason as well.

When the old one closes later in the year the new one is going to be insanely busy. Less usable wall space and smaller areas between walls.

[moose]

I also like (alot) the circuits they used to set at the Depot (they may still do) that have 20 odd problems that start at V1 and go up to V6 in order around the wall (ie clockwise) so you can start on these as a warm up and they get progressively harder. Great idea...

Sounds like the monthly competition circuits (pink holds) - 30 problems from V0/1 to Vhard (V10ish? - I never get past the V6ish ones in the mid-20s).  I rather like the setting at the Depot - a lot of which is in-house.  A good feature is that they have lots of circuits with overlapping grades.  So, say, if you want to climb lots of V5ish problems, you have a good number to go at in a variety of styles - the hard end of the wood circuit for crimps, the hard end of the reds for butch moves, and the easier purples.  And, as the circuits are renewed on a staggered basis, there's usually something relatively new to try (just as well really, I haven't climbed outside all year). 

[Nibile]

Whenver I go to a gym, I suddenly pass from flashing everything at a certain grade, to being unable to climb a single problem at the following grade.
Every setter has his trademark, so I know that if I go to gym X everything harder will be on fat greasy slopers, while at gym Y the distance between holds is proportional to the owner's 2 meters span, etc.

Do you think this has anything to do with the setters relative ability?  E.g. if a setter consistently boulders a certain grade and they try to set something above their limit it is all over the place?

Hmmm, tough one.
Setter's ability is a clue factor: I've learnt that every setter has a home advantage while climbing on his wall, knowing the holds and the move patterns. It's rare if not impossible to find the acrobatic and complex setting that is en vogue in most excellent gyms. So, things get a bit chaotic when they set hard things for others. 
Then I think it depends on two external factors: the relatively low angle of the walls that we have, and the lack of holds.
The angle makes it tricky to set hard without resorting to razor crimpfests that no one likes, so every hard problem will be strange moves between horrendous slopers. Which I hate. Especially if the gym owner leaves the holds caked in chalk and never clean them except when they strip the wall for the Summer closure.
The lack of holds makes it difficult to set with a progressive increase in difficulty because there are no options. In a certain zone of the wall you either have a jug or a crimp and maybe that's all. So a problem which passes through there, is going to be easy, or brick hard, or plain ugly with a nasty sequence and then a jugfest or vice versa.
I saw one of the guys at work some weeks ago; his setting style was this one: starting jug, reach as far as he could for whichever hold was at max span (he's a lanky mofo), then move feet, always at full stretch, reach again as far as physically possible to whichever hold, etc.
No good.
On the other hand, I went to a friend's board two weeks ago, very overhanging, with cool, fun problems set rock-style, and I had great fun and a good Ego massage.
I've always had great fun when bouldering in UK gyms. In Italy, I found that only at King Rock in Verona. That is brilliant.

[Three Nine]

Funny, he came across as a thoroughly nice guy

I hate pricks like that!