[Nibile]

I'd like to find a BM with enough room to try some tests on the small rung.
It's been ages now.
I've been mostly training half crimp on the incut central rung (9) in the last years, progressively adding weight or switching to back3, and I'd like to see how this crosses with the small rung.

[petejh]

And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.

I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)



Which do you mean Pete?

There is a big difference.

I meant hold #9 in that photo. Think Dense did too?

I'm well keen to do it again - just to #proveDensewrong prove to Dense that it's possible to be able to do it while not really ever bothering applying it to bouldering (2- 3 times per year, the one 7C I've ever bothered trying for more than a session I sent). I'm about as weak-fingered at the moment as ever due to not having climbed on my fingers since last October in Turkey, I've been Scottish mixed climbing or drytooling exclusively since the start of November.
I'm downing the winter tools very shortly and starting a training cycle for rock. 3-4 weeks aero/mileage, then 4 weeks strength etc. etc.
So rather than risking fucking myself up now with a party trick, I'll do it during my strength phase starting April.

[mctrials23]

The CWP fingerboard routine sounds like a good idea for me as finger and lockoff strength is what I am after at the moment but I don't know if I am strong enough for it yet. What do you guys think?

Continue with my current plan which is one arm hangs with weight removed via pulley (lots of open and half crimp grips on various BM2000 holds) or start the CWP program.

I'm currently at -15kg on my one arm hangs and can half crimp hold 9 on the BM for about 8 seconds. This is however interspersed with 3 finger open handed hangs and 2 finger pocket hangs etc so if I focus purely on the single hold 4 finger half crimp I can probably do longer.

Would I be better off continuing as I am until I can hang the slot without having to remove weight and then start the CWP program or should I just go for it now and take that bit more weight off with the free hand?

[petejh]

I can't answer that, I'm rubbish at giving specific advice.

Generic advice - what's your goal or goals? Define them - not just a grade. Then define how your abilities line up against your goals. Then do the least amount of good quality specific training you need to do in order to achieve your goals, and no more.

Unless your goal is to be 'a trainer' or to specialise in  indoor boulderering, with outside climbing goals coming second.

[mctrials23]

Currently I'm buying a house, live to the south east of london and don't have much time for going outdoors so my main focus is indoor training. There is nothing specific goal wise other that to get stronger / better at climbing indoors at the moment. Ultimately getting stronger will make me climb harder outdoors as well when I eventually get round to venturing out.

I want to build stronger fingers and more lockoff strength because that seems to be what is holding me back the most. At the wall I am trying to improve my sloper strength because its pretty shit currently but being relatively heavy I struggle with fingery moves on small holds or where I have to lock off before going for the next hold.

[mr chaz]

I began doing the CWP program when I couldn't hang the 9 slot. Could briefly take my weight but not hang at all - if that makes sense. Within a few months I could hang the 9 slot unassisted for 4-5 seconds. It also greatly improved my arm strength and I went from being able to lock off a jug to 1 arming a jug.

How well this all translated to my overall climbing ability is hard to say, I've had a good year but that's down to a variety of things. Something very noticeable was that when I went back to the moonboard after doing the CWP for a few months I had massively improved, but also wasn't injuring my fingers anymore.

I'd say that it has been very beneficial for my arm strength and half crimp strength and at the very least it has allowed me train better on the moonboard... training for training!

[Nibile]

I can't recall CWP program exactly, but it seemed quite PE oriented, and it could easily be done taking some weight off.
You can do both, CWP program for PE and volume; my own personal program for max strength... (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21935.msg400791.html#msg400791)
 

[bendavison]

Would I be better off continuing as I am until I can hang the slot without having to remove weight and then start the CWP program or should I just go for it now and take that bit more weight off with the free hand?

Haven't read all the replied or your whole post but I remember CWP saying you should be able to hang hold 9 for 2-3 seconds without assistance before its worth it.

[petejh]

Nibble only you could describe the Webb-Psrsons hangboard routine as 'PE oriented'!!! It's 3 minutes rest in-between 8 seconds of close to max strength effort. The idea being you only use the minimum amount of assistance required to hang a hold one-armed to failure at 8 seconds. It's quite beefy.

[Muesli]

And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.

I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)



Which do you mean Pete?

There is a big difference.

Ahh sorry for the vagueness. The question was meant to refer to more general training.


I have come back to training in latter life which is good and it still works and gives improvements that translate to problems.  BUT I am finding injuries in general and (fingers in particular) take a lot longer to heal now than I remember them taking twenty five years ago. The couple I have had recently have happened at the end of sets of 7/3 repeaters when I am getting knackered and losing concentration. [size=78%](I dream of using hold 9 ...one day while I can still get it in focus)[/size]


So If max effort, at what ever level you are operating at, is still a way of getting stronger as Nibiles experience would suggest then does it come with a better chance of avoiding injury... but the answer would appear to be not clear cut and  probably no when it comes to fingers.


I am not looking for short cuts but I am looking for ways to minimise time spent rehabilitating injuries.


[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Given that finger pulley injuries occur when you are fatigued, I'd say there is possibly less chance of injury when constructing your training around a bias towards higher intensity/maximal effort.. with some caveats.

When I'm training fingers I try not to fall into the trap of trying to extend the length of hang directly.

So for instance, scenario, one hand, half crimp with pulley assist. Rather than seeing how long I can hold for, I try to "crush" - focussing on near maximal (positive) output, rather than trying not to fall off. In other words the effort is above what is required to stay in position on the hold; the pulley helps you maintain the position a little longer.

It's a subtle difference, but think about it. If you're doing lat pull-downs on a machine, you don't register failure as the point at which you let go of the bar, it's that you simply don't have it in you, to do another rep at a given output.

I've found that a lot of my finger injuries have occurred doing something stupid, like picking up washing up bowls with the rim..

Does anyone get my drift on the above?

[Three Nine]

And you're probably referring to different holds anyway, on the BM they vary a lot.

I would have thought Dense meant the small edge on the BM2000, (hold 3 on the picture)



Which do you mean Pete?

There is a big difference.

Ahh sorry for the vagueness. The question was meant to refer to more general training.


I have come back to training in latter life which is good and it still works and gives improvements that translate to problems.  BUT I am finding injuries in general and (fingers in particular) take a lot longer to heal now than I remember them taking twenty five years ago. The couple I have had recently have happened at the end of sets of 7/3 repeaters when I am getting knackered and losing concentration. [size=78%](I dream of using hold 9 ...one day while I can still get it in focus)[/size]


So If max effort, at what ever level you are operating at, is still a way of getting stronger as Nibiles experience would suggest then does it come with a better chance of avoiding injury... but the answer would appear to be not clear cut and  probably no when it comes to fingers.


I am not looking for short cuts but I am looking for ways to minimise time spent rehabilitating injuries.


[/size][size=78%] [/size]

Museli - if you look up the Long Duration Isometrics article on eric horsts website or find Steve Dunnings 'Deadhang durtion[sic]' thread on here you will find info on what I think is a good protocol for hangs which feels similar to repeaters, but you avoid the danger which comes with sloppy repositioning of grip in the later reps of a repeater set. You can really dig deep, but its not so iffy as repeaters. Its also psychologically easier IMHO, in the same way that circuits is psychologically easier than 4x4s (once you're on you're on).

Get some holds, arrange hold/weight so as to fail at somewhere between 20-30sec. Have a big rest (3-5min) and do it again. Adjust hold and weight to enable progressive overload. You could perhaps do 3 of these each for 3 grips (after warm up) giving a fairly decent workout.

[Nibile]

@ Dave, yes I do.
@ Pete, 
 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Nibs, cool, i thought you would

Are we debating:

Maximum duration/given load  vs maximum load/given duration?

Something like that, former being more like climbing, latter more like effective resistance work.

The other conclusion is simply that doing the washing up makes your fingers soft 

[Nibile]

After some really YYFY fingerboarding sessions in the last weeks, that showed some really good progresses, I thought I could share some info about how I tweaked things in the last months.
As I said on here or in another topic, I found out that I wasn't bouldering enough on my board, doing too much isolation for fingers, so I decided to have just one fingers-specific session per week, usually on Monday (I usually rest on Tuesday due to working away).
I have two sessions that I alternate:
- BM session, in which I target half crimp and monos;
- System session, in which I target full crimp.
Both these sessions have a crossover with general power, because the BM session is made of one armed hangs, with and without added weight, that result in a big arms, shoulders and back workout. The System session is made of static holds with one foot on, that results in a full body workout due to the size of the foothold.

So, the BM session goes like this, after warmup.
Incut rung (9): back3, half crimp, one armed. 1 max hang + 1 sub max hang x 3 x arm. (Do the max hang, incomplete rest, do the sub max hang - shorter and taking a little weight off if needed).
Monos: one armed. Index, middle, ring x 2 per arm. Now, the way I do the monos is a bit particular. I have small fingers, so except for the middle fingers, the monos are a bit big and I tend to slip off easily because I have little catch. Also for index and middle I need to take some weight off. After getting the mono, I do a little jump and at the same time start pulling down, when I'm in the air, especially in that moment in which I stall and start going down, I pull down as hard as I can as to lock off. It's an extremely short and intense effort. I find it more useful than using a pulley or the other arm, also because in this way my fingers do not slip off, given the time is so short.
Incut rung: half crimp, one armed, with added weight. 2 x arm.

The System session goes like this, after warmup.
I do a specific warmup on the BM:
- front2 full crimp on smaller rungs (3), two armed;
- middle2 half crimp on small pockets (6), two armed.
On the System rungs:
- full crimp, one armed, 2/3 x arm;
- full crimp, oner armed, with added weight, one foot on. 2 x arm with opposite foot/hand; 2 x arm with same foot/hand.

And that's all. So far I've seen really good progress, and I'm quite pleased. I hope this is of some interest and useful for someone.
It could sound silly, but it's the result of months and months of tweaking and adapting.

[krymson]

i always heard full crimps were to avoided while training. interesting to see them coming back.

As someone who has tried to avoid full crimping at all times, i have noticed that when i am forced to crimp full on i tend to get tweaks, especially around the a4 which i think isn't stressed much in a half crimp.

[Nibile]

They're surely to be avoided when, for instance, campusing. But overlooking the full crimp in training means being at risk of injury whenever on rock you need to crimp, leaving aside the fact that the full crimp is a very common prehension, having it as a weakness is not very cool.

[ghisino]

Now, the way I do the monos is a bit particular. I have small fingers, so except for the middle fingers, the monos are a bit big and I tend to slip off easily because I have little catch. Also for index and middle I need to take some weight off. After getting the mono, I do a little jump and at the same time start pulling down, when I'm in the air, especially in that moment in which I stall and start going down, I pull down as hard as I can as to lock off.

 

i thought that french starting a fingerboard exercise was like heel hooking on a board 

[Stubbs]

- front2 full crimp on smaller rungs (3), two armed;

 

[Nibile]

i thought that french starting a fingerboard exercise was like heel hooking on a board 

It's not, with the first technique you train to get strong, with the second you train to get weak. 

[Jim]

without reading this thread I'd like to point out that there is absolutely nothing interesting about fingerboarding

[Nibile]