[kelvin]

Anyone else tried the 8 point plank? I can normally do a min or so on a regular plank and I was shaking after 20 secs on the 8 point one!

Report back in a bit - a couple of years back, I'd manage a 8m30sec plank okay but haven't really tried for 18 months or so and that was 3 min. I expect way less now.

I have a strong lower back due to work. Rolling ceilings most days ehlps - get on the DIY Luke!

[nai]

Those 8P planks are surprisingly hard work, was expecting them to be far easier than standard planks

[Luke Owens]

I'll try that Ham stretch test and eight-point plank on my lunch in half an hour and report back.

I have a strong lower back due to work. Rolling ceilings most days ehlps - get on the DIY Luke!

Haha, I must admit when I bought my house last June and re-decorated it all, after 3 weeks of it I was aching all over, especially my back!

[tomtom]

Those 8P planks are surprisingly hard work, was expecting them to be far easier than standard planks

especially if you move your elbows and knees further and further apart!! I quite like them as it feels like they work my back back more than front back (which regular planks do etc..)

[nai]

Do you mean further apart sideways or back to front?

The further forward you slide your elbows in a regular plank the harder it becomes, go far enough and you can get twice the workout in half the time.

[kelvin]

Those 8P planks are surprisingly hard work, was expecting them to be far easier than standard planks

especially if you move your elbows and knees further and further apart!! I quite like them as it feels like they work my back back more than front back (which regular planks do etc..)

Interesting. Started trembling at about 40sec. I managed five minutes and then gave up as I was getting bored, always the issue with planks for me. Felt much, much tougher on the shoulders and upper back for me, compared to a normal plank. I had a rearrange at about 3 minutes, slid my elbows forward to about level with the eyes to make the whole thing harder. The upper back and shoulders really are a weakness for me in climbing but my lower back and abs didn't even feel phased - so as is often the case, I guess much of this is down to what we do for work and how that weakens or strengthens us.

Starting to really feel my upper back back (nice turn of words Tom) now - I'm crap at pullups and I can feel it right in between the shoulder blades, along the spine, dunno, blimey... starting to ache now! 

[kelvin]

Haha, I must admit when I bought my house last June and re-decorated it all, after 3 weeks of it I was aching all over, especially my back!

S'funny - I remember you saying about it on fit/power club at the time and chuckling. Decorating strength is definitely not transferable to climbing, I can vouch for that. Apart from maybe having strong calves due to standing on steps for long periods of time.

[fried]

Very strange, I find I could do the 8P plank almost indefintely, I can't feel any tightness anywhere. I've chacked 3 times, I'm sure I'm doing it O.K. Front planks, on the other-hand I can manage a couple of minutes.

[nai]

Maybe it's me and Tom having weaknesses due to our recent back problems.

In other news, I once read although can't remember where or why, that you shouldn't do planks for more than a minute.  Not sure why you'd want to do it for so long anyway when just moving your elbows forward a few inches makes it so much harder and gets it over with so much quicker and you could do something less boring instead.

[fried]

I damaged my back a couple of years ago in a fall, it'd be nice to think that all my 15min back exercise actually do help.

I agree planks are boring, so thanks for the tip for lessening the pain, I'll give it a go.

[nai]

Oh the pain isn't lessened, if anything it's intensified but the length of time you have to suffer it for is reduced. 

[shark]

Maybe not in direct answer to the OP but I thought it was as good a place to pontificate about my lower back experiences as some of the things I discovered might be useful for others who have a lower back issues with the caveat that my memory isn't great about what I've done over the years or the relative effects.
 
In my teens I had a rapid growth spurt that seems to have had a particular effect on my back that left I number of very noticeable stretch marks. I found that when my back felt uncomfortable I could push the spine back into place with some audible crunching/clicking that gave relief.

A hunched posture was made worse by taking up climbing at 19 and in my mid 20s the problems with putting my back out got worse and my back going into spasm. No doubt it was made worse by having a desk job and I often felt like a broken reed with strong upper body and legs and jelly in the middle. I went to osteopath who remarked that my spine was pronounced S shape with the lower back flexibility meaning I would overuse it for daily actions like picking things up. He also saw that I had sclerosis where my spine twisted over to one side leading to spasm down one side of my back. I think with the manipulation and exercises at the time the sclerosis was corrected. After that I carried on muddling along with occasional visits to the physio and varied stretches.

I was finding long car journetys increasing uncomfortable and often when I started increasing training it was my back that would give out and be the limiting factor.

About 5/6 years ago I made a few more active steps to try and deal with the issue and I cant exactly pinpoint what made the most difference but I can say that now my back is in better shape now than when I was a teenager.

- At Hallamshire Physio the conclusion was that my back wasnt weak per se but was consistently overused so it never got a break. This stemmed from bad movement habits and because my upper back was so stiff and hunched over so for example to stand up straight I used to push my lower back in. The movement habits that I re-learnt was as basic as going from sitting to standing up. Before I used my lower back to initiate this movement whereas better form is to initiate the movement from your glutes and a slight tip of your pelvis. A good exercise I was taught to mobilise the upper back is to imagine a torch is implanted in the centre of your chest then just by mobilising the upper back is to shine the torch up then down then top left of the room, top right, bottom left and bottom right (the order doesn't matter BTW)

- I did some Yoga classes which made me realise how inflexible my shoulders and back are and took away some exercises that I still do to correct this. I also picked up from a exercise that Steph Davis described to bend your upper back over a yoga block to increase the flexibility (or rather decrease the inflexibility) of my upper back and I do this 2/3 times a week to help counteract the hunching from desk work and climbing. I also try to get my outstretched arms to lay out straight on the floor behind my head when lying on my back by using the yoga technique of breathing "into" the tight inhibiting area. Not managed it yet and there seems to be an annoying particular restriction in my left shoulder (maybe from an unknown or forgotten injury)

- I purchased a load of weights in 2008 at a bargain price off ebay and did a couple of months of deadlifting at home. I watched yourtube videos to learn the best form and got close to 2x bodyweight which I felt was adequate before sacking it off. My back felt really great from doing this. IIRC it also gave me the capability to front levers where before my bum would sag down.   
 

[Luke Owens]

All good knowlege here guys, thanks for sharing your experiance Shark. Good to hear you sorted the problem in the end. Goes to show again it's not always obvious what is actually the problem. Do you still have to do exercises/stretches to maintain strength/flexability in the back?

Just been on lunch and tried a few things:

In response to Nai, I tried the hamstring stretch and I can bring both legs to 90 degrees (sepeartaly), then I start to feel the tightness/shaking.

Not sure whether this is good or bad on the flexability scale?

Did some 50kg Deadlifts, didn't want to do anything too heavy to start with and could feel it hitting the right places.

Did a bunch of supermans, again feels like it's hitting the right areas.

Did some single leg bridges on a swiss ball and these felt nails, holding the position for 20 seconds then I'm a trembling wreck. Is it better to hold the position with these or sort of do reps of rolling the ball back and forth?

Also had a go on the Hip Flexor Machine (Not sure of the actual name) where it has a weighted pad which you swing with your leg. Depending on how you use it it appearently targets your Hip Flexors or Hip Extensors, worth using?

Cheers

[shark]

All good knowlege here guys, thanks for sharing your experiance Shark. Good to hear you sorted the problem in the end. Goes to show again it's not always obvious what is actually the problem. Do you still have to do exercises/stretches to maintain strength/flexability in the back?

Only what I mentioned but I would try out more and do it more regularly if my back started playing up. I still crunch my back into place using a broom handle in the crook of my elbows - saves on visiting the osteopath. My priority has shifted to sorting my shoulder positioning and flexibility out. 

[tomtom]

All good knowlege here guys, thanks for sharing your experiance Shark. Good to hear you sorted the problem in the end. Goes to show again it's not always obvious what is actually the problem. Do you still have to do exercises/stretches to maintain strength/flexability in the back?

Only what I mentioned but I would try out more and do it more regularly if my back started playing up. I still crunch my back into place using a broom handle in the crook of my elbows - saves on visiting the osteopath. My priority has shifted to sorting my shoulder positioning and flexibility out.

Similar but nowhere near as severe as Shark - my Osteo says all my lower back issues are due to an over S shaped spine - leading to the lower part taking too much strain. My thorasic spine (sp?) the bit above my lower back to my shoulders - was according to him virtually solid. This gets cracked loose every couple of weeks by him - and I have a couple of exercises to help this... ranging from stretching out the pecs, to figure of 8s with my elbows (pointed forwards with hands behind head) to some sort of lunge stretch to get my pelvis to sit at a better angle.. No silver bullets for me amongst that lot, but together it seems to be helping. Sorting out my seating postion at home and work has been very important though..

[rodma]

Similar but nowhere near as severe as Shark - my Osteo says all my lower back issues are due to an over S shaped spine - leading to the lower part taking too much strain. My thorasic Jurassic spine (sp?) the bit above my lower back to my shoulders - was according to him virtually solid

 

this is the problem with many fossils. i'm really not sure how useful the manipualations are.

[shark]

My thorasic spine (sp?) the bit above my lower back to my shoulders - was according to him virtually solid. This gets cracked loose every couple of weeks by him - and I have a couple of exercises to help this... ranging from stretching out the pecs, to figure of 8s with my elbows (pointed forwards with hands behind head) to some sort of lunge stretch to get my pelvis to sit at a better angle.. No silver bullets for me amongst that lot, but together it seems to be helping. Sorting out my seating postion at home and work has been very important though..

Worth trying the "torch on chest" mobility exercise and the yoga block under shoulder blades I described. You'll never do a bridge but it could help regain enough mobility to avoid reinjury

[tomtom]

Similar but nowhere near as severe as Shark - my Osteo says all my lower back issues are due to an over S shaped spine - leading to the lower part taking too much strain. My thorasic Jurassic spine (sp?) the bit above my lower back to my shoulders - was according to him virtually solid

 

this is the problem with many fossils. i'm really not sure how useful the manipualations are.

Well I get a dutiful amount of spine cracks per session... christ I hate it... breathe in... breathe ou....CRACK....t

Bizarrely the first time I got uncontrollable giggles...

[nai]

In response to Nai, I tried the hamstring stretch and I can bring both legs to 90 degrees (sepeartaly), then I start to feel the tightness/shaking.

Not sure whether this is good or bad on the flexability scale?

Very good I'd say.  Physio said I was fairly flexible and had decent posture "for a climber". 

Must admit to slight disappointment at my limit though, I'd run 2-3 times a week all last year and always stretched afterwards.  Could get my chin on my knee in the hurdlers stretch position, thought I was really flexible but turns out I had limited hamstring range and tight hip flexors, things that I'd never considered problems.  On a later visit when the back had eased up I demonstrated some of my post-run stretches and he pointed out how I was cheating at them to make it look like I was more flexible than I actually was.

[Fultonius]

I've been suffering from a sore lower back the last couple of weeks. Quite a sharp pain at first which I noticed for the first time when doing some deadlifts after a bouldering session. It wasn't all that sore, more of a "oh, my back doesn't like that, I'll sack it off and go home".

I rested up until the pain went, then have been doing some gentle strengthening rehab. Bouldering was restricted at first but the last couple of sessions felt totally fine. After bouldering yesterday I did some deadlifts and squats and today it's feeling tired and tense, but not sore. Those 8 point planks didn't seem to bad, but they did really target the "weak" point in my back.

In hindsight, my form for lifting was a bit mixed up - the reason being I used to Romanian deadlifts when I was rehabing my knee (as per physio recc.), but that was always light weights and not full ROM. My GF noticed that I was going too far and allowing my back to round a little bit. 

Yesterday I was doing "normal" deadlifts (with not much weight, just rehab) and my back felt pretty strong and my form felt "good".

Doing that aforementioned "lie on the back, lift leg" hamstring tension test I can get about 80 degrees before my hamstrings limit the ROM. Incidentally this is the point where hanging leg raises pound my lower back, especially after 6 or 7 reps.

Front levers also pound that part of my back too.

Anyway, the point of this ramble was - this thread has highlighted that I should start being more conscious of my flexibility and start focussing on long-term lower back strength.

[Sasquatch]

Had to try the floor hamstring stretch thingy for curiousity's sake. 80 and 90 if I point my toes more up, 45 and 50ish if I point my toes towards my body.  Apparently my calves are my issue(I actually knew this already )

Back to the low back stuff.  As was mentioned earlier, take a long view and work up to the stuff.  3-6 months is a good starting point for planning, and work through progressive exercises.  Don't overdo it with one.  General idea would be to start with something easier, and do higher volume 3-5 sets of 12-15 reps for about 4 weeks, then progress into more direct strength work dropping down to 5-8 sets of 3-5 reps (aiming for 20-25 total reps). 

As Fultonius mentioned, get the form right, as the wrong form can really screw you up. 

[Luke Owens]

On a later visit when the back had eased up I demonstrated some of my post-run stretches and he pointed out how I was cheating at them to make it look like I was more flexible than I actually was.

Leaves me a little confused as to what might be the weak link with me, I was expecting a poor result from the hamstring stretch. Even doing what Sasquatch mentioned about pointing the toes toward the body I can still get to 90 degress. What would be described as cheating? Just want to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

Back to the low back stuff.  As was mentioned earlier, take a long view and work up to the stuff.  3-6 months is a good starting point for planning, and work through progressive exercises.  Don't overdo it with one.  General idea would be to start with something easier, and do higher volume 3-5 sets of 12-15 reps for about 4 weeks, then progress into more direct strength work dropping down to 5-8 sets of 3-5 reps (aiming for 20-25 total reps). 

Cheers, I'll make sure I keep with the higher volume for now. Does high rep work actually strengthen muscles to some extent too?

[nai]

On a later visit when the back had eased up I demonstrated some of my post-run stretches and he pointed out how I was cheating at them to make it look like I was more flexible than I actually was.

Leaves me a little confused as to what might be the weak link with me, I was expecting a poor result from the hamstring stretch. Even doing what Sasquatch mentioned about pointing the toes toward the body I can still get to 90 degress. What would be described as cheating? Just want to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

Apologies for the confusion, it wasn't this I was deemed to be cheating at, this was just a test he did to asses the length of my hamstrings then explained the mechanics of a leg raise and how it differs beyond the limit of the hamstrings and why I was currently lying on his treatment table in agony. 

If you can get to 90 then you may be ok but if try them note how the lower back changes at the top of the raise, see if it feels like you're using your back to get the last part of the rep finished. Keeping a slight bend in your legs would possibly help keep the form correct.

[tomtom]

For all those with lower back niggles - or planning lower back training regimes:

Take care... I'm still a long way from recovered 3 months after symptoms started - and according to my Osteo I'm getting better faster than expected...