[Luke Owens]

As far back as I can remember as a climber I've had a very weak lower back. I'm not too sure why, but It's probably due to sitting at a desk all day. I feel I've got fairly decent strength in other aspects of my core possibly from training before I climbed, on non-steep stuff core never seems to be the issue. Lately on some of the harder problems I've tried it always seems to be a core issue stopping me from doing moves.

Because of this I've always favored non-steep problems/routes and climbing indoors is something I only do if there really is no other option. Indoors I fall off all the roof problems and Indoors and out I find it very very difficult/impossible to "pull with the feet".

I've tried over the last year or possibly longer to sort this weakness out but I think I'm just possibly giving up to easily or missing something.

A couple of questions:

How long does it take to actually improve lower back strength and actually notice a difference? I know what exercises I have to do to improve but I just loose interest after a couple of weeks of no improvement.

Is there something else I'm possibly not noticing is wrong?

For example (and to show you how weak I am); I try to do leg raises on a bar as often as I can, with knees bent It's fine but when trying to do L raises as soon as I begin to reach an "L" shape I just can't get any further or have to start bending my knees.

Also, I tried for a period at the beginning of last year to just climb at Pantymwyn (steep stuff) a lot, with some grim determination I managed after many sessions to do a couple of the problems but I don't feel like I actually improved as far as my lower back strength is concerned. In the first few moves in the video below you can see me sagging a hell of a lot. I find these moves hard for this reason (Everyone else keeps there hips really high and tucked in and doesn't find this the crux)



I've been back there recently and I actually can't repeat the problems due to just losing the little tension I have. It's possibly worth mentioning I have really weak hip flexors too, which when I stretch actually hurt a bit. I've tried stretching loads but nothing seems to improve this either, not sure if it's in anyway connected.

Any thoughts, idea's or just tell me to carry on doing the same thing would be appreciated.

Cheers

[tomtom]

I found side planks made a surprising difference - planks etc... helped, but I seemed to have a real weakness laterally that these worked really well.. also 'supermans' work my lower back (at the back not the front) for some balance.

But I am fairly crocked at the moment :D

[mctrials23]

I don't know if its just because you are saying that you have a weak lower back but it looks like you are dragging your legs up a lot of that problem.

I have lower back issue periodically but its fine 95% of the time. I'm quite tall with reasonably heavy legs so l-sits and leg raises are quite stressful on my lower back but I don't struggle with them that much. You don't look very tall or heavy in the lower body so I would suggest that its a mobility issue rather than a weakness problem as leg raises are not very hard if you are reasonably strong.

The lower back can be impaired through tight hamstrings, glutes and other imbalances in that area of the body so perhaps try to use a foam roller on that whole area. Lately I have been using a tennis ball to work out knots in my glutes as well as foam rollering my IT band and all other areas of my upper thighs and it seems to be helping.

[chris j]

How long does it take to actually improve lower back strength and actually notice a difference? I know what exercises I have to do to improve but I just loose interest after a couple of weeks of no improvement.

Think of improving your back as something to incorporate into the rest of your life rather than something to fix in just a few weeks...

[Luke Owens]

The lower back can be impaired through tight hamstrings, glutes and other imbalances in that area of the body so perhaps try to use a foam roller on that whole area. Lately I have been using a tennis ball to work out knots in my glutes as well as foam rollering my IT band and all other areas of my upper thighs and it seems to be helping.

Cheers, I think this is worth exploring as my glutes, lower back and hamstrings always ache and feel tight after climbing. Flexability wise I'm pretty strange as I've always been able to do things without trying like touch my head to my knees when stood up and put both my legs behind my head seperately (Can't say I do this often...). But if I try and do something that opens my hips like the frog stretch I can't get anywhere with it and I'm in agony...!

I found side planks made a surprising difference - planks etc... helped, but I seemed to have a real weakness laterally that these worked really well.. also 'supermans' work my lower back (at the back not the front) for some balance.

But I am fairly crocked at the moment :D

Cheers Tomtom, I've tried all of these but again I think i'm just not sticking with them long enough for them to have a lasting effect.

[tomtom]

I wouldnt go nuts on the planks - I used to do 45 secs *maybe a min* on the front, then the same for either side straight after. Rest for a couple of min and do again... I don't really see the point of doing much longer than that - as for bouldering do you ever need more than a min or so? *apart from me on Weedkiller obviously!

[mctrials23]

Cheers, I think this is worth exploring as my glutes, lower back and hamstrings always ache and feel tight after climbing. Flexability wise I'm pretty strange as I've always been able to do things without trying like touch my head to my knees when stood up and put both my legs behind my head seperately (Can't say I do this often...). But if I try and do something that opens my hips like the frog stretch I can't get anywhere with it and I'm in agony...!

I am fairly similar. I am quite flexible in the standard ways but in a number of climbing specific ones I am quite poor. The more I read about hip flexibility issues the more keen I am to sort them out as it seems like a pretty vital component of climbing hard boulders once you get to a certain grade.

I would give Nibiles core stuff a go as well. The stuff where you get a hand and a foot as far away from each other as possible on an overhanging board and try to maintain the tension between them. I have found these to be good for the core and they are about as climbing specific as you can get.

[Stubbs]

Can you touch your toes with locked out knees? The l sit thing sounds like it could be a tight hamstring/glutes/psoas thing as noted above.

[Luke Owens]

Can you touch your toes with locked out knees? The l sit thing sounds like it could be a tight hamstring/glutes/psoas thing as noted above.

Yeah I can, with not much difficulty. Which has got me thinking it's pretty strange I can do this but L hangs are so difficult, you'd think this would mean I'd be able to bring my feet up to the bar. But I'm guessing different things are at play in both scenarios?

[chris j]

The lower back can be impaired through tight hamstrings, glutes and other imbalances in that area of the body so perhaps try to use a foam roller on that whole area. Lately I have been using a tennis ball to work out knots in my glutes as well as foam rollering my IT band and all other areas of my upper thighs and it seems to be helping.

Tight glutes are what I've fund to set off my back pain most regularly. I've destroyed a few tennis balls working the knots in my glutes out & moved onto solid rubber massage/lacrosse balls, which get further in and should last a bit longer. My comment before was flippant but it is an ongoing work in progress for me as sitting around at work/in the car destroys my glutes about as fast as I can break the knots down so if I lay off for a few days I'll suffer for it.

[mctrials23]

Tight glutes are what I've fund to set off my back pain most regularly. I've destroyed a few tennis balls working the knots in my glutes out & moved onto solid rubber massage/lacrosse balls, which get further in and should last a bit longer. My comment before was flippant but it is an ongoing work in progress for me as sitting around at work/in the car destroys my glutes about as fast as I can break the knots down so if I lay off for a few days I'll suffer for it.

You are far more man than I. I wept like a small child the first time I used even a tennis ball. I dread to think what noises I would make with something less forgiving.

[chris j]

I do it in the privacy of my garage where no-one can hear me whimper...

[Sasquatch]

I've tried over the last year or possibly longer to sort this weakness out but I think I'm just possibly giving up to easily or missing something.

A couple of questions:

How long does it take to actually improve lower back strength and actually notice a difference? I know what exercises I have to do to improve but I just loose interest after a couple of weeks of no improvement.

Is there something else I'm possibly not noticing is wrong?

4-6 weeks of the correct exercises.  Think posterior chain.  You want exercises that target you hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. 

For example (and to show you how weak I am); I try to do leg raises on a bar as often as I can, with knees bent It's fine but when trying to do L raises as soon as I begin to reach an "L" shape I just can't get any further or have to start bending my knees.

Leg raises on a bar are primarily front chain. Quads, Hip flexors, Abs.  If you roll your shoulders back as you get higher, it switches on your lower lats.   From your description of your hamstring flexibilty, I'd guess this is a hip flexor weakness, not a low back issue. 

There's very little training for your lower posterier chain you can do while hanging from a bar(at least I've neveer found any).  Even a front lever is mainly middle back and upwards.

As TT mentioned, Supermans are a good bodyweight exercies to start with.  Can you do this and get only your pelvis to be on the ground and hold for 15-20 seconds?

[duncan]

What Sasquatch said.

This is a great example of why "core" is such a bollocks term. Leg-raises wont stop your middle sagging 'foot on'.

As I’ve said before, I think it is useful to consider two conditions - foot on and trying to keep them on and foot off / controlling swing / getting feet back on.

Abdominal and hip flexor exercises only help with the foot-off strength. Relevant exercises for foot-on strength -  what you seem to be lacking - include anything for the low back and hip extensor muscles. Posterior chain, if you must. Deadlifts and supermen will strengthen the relevant muscles but not very specifically. Single-leg bridging? Probably better is training on a steep board. Look at those vids. of Nibile on his board, holding positions, repositioning his feet and that kind of thing.

[the_dom]

Supermans, deadlifts and kettlebell swings (focus on keeping your lower back straight) will all help. I actually read an article on T-Nation yesterday (http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-apology) that talked to how focused Crossfit was on building lower back strength - hope it helps.

[tomtom]

I stumbled across this yesterday

http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/5-simple-moves-to-eliminate-low-back-pain-for-good/?utm_source=mfp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly20150216&mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRokuarBZKXonjHpfsX56u0pWqW+lMI/0ER3fOvrPUfGjI4DTcRrI+SLDwEYGJlv6SgFSrTFMblm0LgLXhM=

And surprisingly found the 8 point plank really hard (I thought it would be easier than a regular plank!) - and the woodpecker really worked my hamstrings - which I was not expecting..

[Luke Owens]

Cheers guys, plenty of things to work on. The T-Nation article is good, shows how important a strong lower back.

As TT mentioned, Supermans are a good bodyweight exercies to start with.  Can you do this and get only your pelvis to be on the ground and hold for 15-20 seconds?

I tried this last night and I can hold the position staticly for over a minute. I've seen variations where you move your arms and legs too, Aquaman?

So you guys reckon stuff like:

Single Leg Bridge
Superman
Hanging Leg Raises
Deadlifts

I'll try out that eight-point plank later too.

Anymore for the hip flexors?

Should I be looking at high volume, high reps? Daily?

Cheers

[erm, sam]

Think of improving your back as something to incorporate into the rest of your life rather than something to fix in just a few weeks...

I think this is a really important point. I think the lower back particularly is a difficult area to target to get stronger. It is used and abused so widely in your daily life and lots of exersises can be very demanding if you are not used to them or if done with poor form. This means it is very easy to just make it sore and overworked if you are focusing on it.

Also I think rather than jsut having a weak lower back, problems can be from underrequiting hamstrings or what have you so focusing on your "lower back" might not be the solution.

More holistic core excersises might be a good solution rather than blasting out lots of Leg raises.  The swiss ball 10 week workout posted in the core strength thread is a good way to build up a wider core strength in a not destroying way, I think. As an example of how much I think one should take it easy, I have done the first week of the 10 week work out for 3 weeks now before moving on to "week two" in order to ensure I am not going to overwork my back.

Aim for a stronger core in 3-6 months rather than 3-6 weeks to avoid the overdoing it - resting -overdoing it agian cycle that I have spent years in..

[nai]

So you guys reckon stuff like:

Hanging Leg Raises

Only read the last few posts but Saquatch and Duncan are definitely not saying these.  Be very cautious of them, getting into an L sit position is limited more by hamstrings than by weaknesses in your core.

[Luke Owens]

Only read the last few posts but Saquatch and Duncan are definitely not saying these.  Be very cautious of them, getting into an L sit position is limited more by hamstrings than by weaknesses in your core.

Sasquatch reckoned it might of been a hip flexor issue and said that leg raises are primarily front chain which includes hip flexors?

Leg raises on a bar are primarily front chain. Quads, Hip flexors, Abs.  If you roll your shoulders back as you get higher, it switches on your lower lats.   From your description of your hamstring flexibilty, I'd guess this is a hip flexor weakness, not a low back issue. 

The swiss ball 10 week workout posted in the core strength thread is a good way to build up a wider core strength in a not destroying way, I think.

Thanks, I'll check that out. Yeah, I am thinking long term, guess it's natural to want "instant" changes. I'll definetly not just be focusing on the lower back though.

[nai]

I read Sas's post and Duncan's response as saying that Leg Raises won't help you address the problem you have.

Lie flat on your back and raise a leg keeping it straight, locked out at the knee. At what angle does the hamstring start pulling? That's the limit your hamstring will stretch. 

Mine's about 70 degrees and that's why I struggled to do L sits on a bar and it's why I herniated a disk as I pushed on (over)doing them. Getting to 70 used all the muscles the exercise should be targeting but for that last 20 the form goes wrong with an inevitable outcome. Keeping a slight bend in the knee would have helped.

But again, back to Duncan's point that this exercise won't help you address the issue you originally posted about

Sorry if I'm getting a bit evangelical about this point but my recent experience is a very bad one.

[tomtom]

30 degrees left leg, 45 right. It's one of the tests the osteo does every week..

[nai]

Blimey, that's stiff.  I assume that's only since the back issues though?  Hopefully as that resolves it will improve.

[kelvin]

30 degrees left leg, 45 right. It's one of the tests the osteo does every week..

With you there Tom - managing to lift the heel only 8inches off the floor with the left leg at the moment but about 45deg with the right. Purely a hamstring tightness issue in the right leg but the left is down to all the trouble with the medial and the adductor I'm experiencing at the moment. As well as the hammy of course, they've always been an issue. Strong, never had a tear, no lesions in the muscle but silly tight constantly no matter what stretching I do.

Nice find that link above Tom. Cheers.

[tomtom]

Blimey, that's stiff.  I assume that's only since the back issues though?  Hopefully as that resolves it will improve.

Yeah - the left one is due to the back (it was about 10-20 degrees) and the spasming in my glute/piriformis/hamstring area means its really stiff.. Those woodpecker exercises I linked to look so easy - but felt so hard!!

Anyone else tried the 8 point plank? I can normally do a min or so on a regular plank and I was shaking after 20 secs on the 8 point one!