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Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension (Read 8894 times)

TMR

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Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 01:32:31 am
Was having a read of the "Different kind of core" http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,25211.25.html
which set me to thinking about the front/back core differences and how these come into play whilst climbing. I thought a discussion could be interesting, as the issues/points made on that thread felt a little underdeveloped. I don't expect this post to be revelatory, i'm just trying to tie or the elements together. The usual caveats apply, i'm not a professional anything (i try to as amateurish as possible at work) and if iv'e inadvertently plagiarised/re-covered ground i apologise in advance. Also, if you bore easily i'd probably not bother.

A recent article on UKC http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7059 has made the common mistake of talking about the use of core in climbing and only mention "front" core (quads, obliques, abs etc). As a result the article has been slagged off a bit but i think this may be a little unfair (although i agree with the criticism of his totally whack five finger vibram wanker-sandals). The beginner (and this was a UKC article) with little athletic background will probably have a woefully weak core and the exercises described in the article will be useful for countering the "cut and flail" example given.

This doesn't mean that more advanced climbers don't use these muscles, i just think that by the time you hit 7A you've probably strengthened these adequately whether or not you intended it so your ability to control a mandatory cut loose will be adequate. The recent trend for Ab Ripper X (i'm guilty too) for advanced climbers is a waste of time in my opinion, unless "you want the defined, ripped abdominal area you deserve" (direct quote). I think some front levers would be a good idea if you really wanted to take this aspect of core strength (front open-chain) to it's party trick limit even if many people think front levers don't actually make you any better at climbing. My reasoning for saying this is that there may be a move on a roof in a boulder somewhere (i can't think of one) on which you have to cut loose to vertical 100% in control before moving on.

This leaves us with "back" core. Or posterior power chain, or, where true "body tension comes from". This comes from the tip of your toes all the way through calves, hamstrings, glutes through to your back and shoulders. Sit ups wont train this. Windscreen wipers wont train this. Sitting on a giant beachball in a crossfit class drinking a "Bulletproof Coffee" (google it) wont train this. It's also the area i think advanced climbers would most benefit from training if they've identified core as a weakness, as this is the core strength utilised most for the vast majority of hard moves. Here's some ideas;

1. Deadlifts. Lots of people don't think they're useful. Malc does. Malcs right. Its also a really useful for "older" climbers, as it helps boost dwindling testosterone levels.

2. Specific exercises on steep ground. These look like a good idea, courtesy of Italian Stallion lorenzo (he also appears to be sporting a Slendertone, which can only be a good thing).



3. You could also target muscle groups specifically with things like supermans, yoga bridges etc

4. I need more ideas

It might be worth mentioning that all muscles around your core and in your legs are probably activated to some
to some degree whilst climbing no matter what the move looks like, and i think this is where true "body tension" lies. A lot of the blogs and videos out there focus on either front or back core under the guise of "body tension' which is incredibly misleading. The blog posts on www.selfcoachedclimber.com are some of the best i've read for climbing specific core related body tension (especially the analysis of Dave Graham on the Island)

I hope you've found some value in my rambling. Im not working at the minute, thus, i am bored. I welcome any calls of bullshit or additional info as i'm still trying to get my head round this (the more i read the more confused i get). Btw, my favourite all round core exercise at the minute is a modification of the "Gainage" exercise Sean McColl advocates around the 4 minutes mark in the video below. I like to do it with a mixture of toe/heelhooks and edging/smearing on footholds from good to crap whilst focusing on building tension and moving my hips a little when i regain the hold.

Tom

« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 01:52:52 am by TMR »

blamo

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#1 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 01:56:52 am
I think some front levers would be a good idea if you really wanted to take this aspect of core strength (front open-chain) to it's party trick limit even if many people think front levers don't actually make you any better at climbing.

I spent a fair amount of time developing the ability to do a front level and it didn't really translate in a noticeable way to my climbing.  I am finding being able to engage your core to do certain types of moves to also be necessary (and I suck at it).  I have found wearing a weight vest and doing "isometric" body positions on a woody to be of value for the core and the fingers.  Sort of like adopting the first video to various climbing positions you suck at.

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#2 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 03:20:57 am
Deadlifts :)


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#3 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 06:52:47 am
Deadlifts :)

Seconded.

I quit climbing (and 'specialised' climbing-focused training) for most of last year. As I've been getting back into it this year, I've noticed that my core is no weaker than before and it's purely because I've been deadlifting once a week and occasionally doing other olympic-style lifts like snatches.

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#4 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 08:25:52 am
Deadlifts :)

Definitely.

Out of left field the other thing that's leaving every muscle in my back from shoulders to glutes worked at the moment is trying to hold a good straight handstand position. (I can't do handstands) Starting in a plank with feet against the wall, then walking up the wall and holding the position with toes against the wall for a minute or so, periodically pushing off to hold a balanced position for a few seconds. Inevitably forward rolling out of it when I wobble too much and topple over...

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#6 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 09:26:01 am
In the boulder gym I go to, I see lots of climbers do the exercise Sean describes at 4'. Alas, most of them have nothing like McColls strength in the upper body. So while McColl is very controlled, with bend arms and stable shoulders they mostly flail around on straight arms, especially when they get tired. (Not to mention using a lot of momentum to get the feet up to the holds). To me it doesn't look like they are training the core very effectively, and I also think that they are at risk of injuring their shoulder girdle.

For specific exercises on a bouldering wall, exercises like those Nibile demonstrates in his vid are more useful for a majority of climbers.

There are plenty of exercises for the posterior chain that can be done on the floor, on a swiss ball, with TRX (or whatever they are called the fitness industry version of the rings), with kettle bells, with sand bags, barbells etc. They are almost all more useful than the front-lever.

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#7 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 10:42:09 am
c.4:40 on the vid - very interesting what his other leg is doing on the toe dab exercise,...

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#8 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 11:36:00 am
Do you guys doing deadlifts have a gym membership or weights at home. I'm struggling to justify spending £30/month to do a couple of weights sessions a week on top of the £40/month for climbing.

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#9 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 12:25:43 pm
I go to the local PureGym at £15/month and they've just started putting up signs inside for £10/month so I will be having a word.

It's worth trying to do this stuff in the correct environment.

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#10 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 12:34:53 pm
Deadlifts are really cool, but before going heavy you have to master the specific technique otherwise you're up for a big mess. As they say, you have to check your Ego at the door. A thing that I don't do.
I did them for a while to get to 2xBW, and later, after some form checking I found out that what I was doing was closer to a Romanian deadlift than to a conventional deadlift. My hips were always too high, they used to shoot up before the bar left the ground and passed the knees, and this could have been an issue. Luckily it wasn't, but it could have.
On the other hand, it was a good max for Romanian.

Edit: heavy deadlifting has also an enormous mental aspect that is essential that can come useful in climbing, especially bouldering.

@TMR: sorry, that's just a wool band to keep my lower back warm...  :)

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#11 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 12:40:51 pm
Do you guys doing deadlifts have a gym membership or weights at home. I'm struggling to justify spending £30/month to do a couple of weights sessions a week on top of the £40/month for climbing.

i bought york weights years ago and slowly added to them as i got stronger, managing to get free disks from the local community recycling centre (out of the "metal" skip).

i replaced those with an olympic set a wee while back, because i was near the limit of what the bar could hold and didn't want it snapping, plus it makes me feel marginally more manly.  :strongbench:

i don't have the time, money or energy to expend on going to a gym

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#12 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 01:19:42 pm
Set at home on the yard so I feel tough doing the the cold in jeans and a hoody...  :weakbench:

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#13 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 01:26:05 pm
I have heard a number of people say they are good for learning how to "try hard" as well as the obvious strength benefits. Trying hard is something that I think is harder in climbing than a lot of other sports as its more multi faceted than things like lifting but when you manage it you can be amazed at what is possible.

Last session I was playing around on a systems board and falling off a move repeatedly yet suddenly when someone came over and was watching me I made it easily. I wasn't trying 'hard' before or after but just the focus i got from having someone watch made a huge difference.

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#14 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 03:47:03 pm
Agreed. Trying hard is wierd. I was making no progress on a problem at the wall a week back and basically wrote it off as impossible. Next time at the wall I saw someone else trying it so I got on it to 'show them the moves' and did it first try.

Also anyone know of anything documenting the scientific basis for the 'power scream' ? I can attest it definitely helps on limit moves!

I'm one of those climbers with a pretty strong 'front core' but everything at the back is total shit. I'm definitely going to start deadlifting again, I find it really hard to maintain body tension while trying hard moves on big slopy holds etc :\

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#15 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 04:38:20 pm
Do you guys doing deadlifts have a gym membership or weights at home.

Gym in the garage - rowing machine, weights, rubber tile flooring. All for the price of 2 years local gym membership. Used ~3x a week when I'm home so I figure it's paid for itself now.

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#16 Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 05:26:45 pm
So...

I've not climbed for more than a year.

More than 18 months in fact.

I tore my Rotator cuff.

Every time I tried to get back into it, I would end up in agony.

I run a Bouldering Gym and have a fantastic training room to play with.

There are numerous young Wads who all want to see the old Git fall off and I'm too dumb to avoid trying that new problem, showing that the old Goat can still dyno etc etc.

This usually results in me leaving the mats with a forced smile, to find a corner to scream in until the pain eases and the stars stop flashing in my eyes.

I have gradually got fatter and weaker.

So, I've been doing the programme below for the last 4 weeks. (Tuesday's and Fridays). And last night I started on a foot on Campus routine.

I don't know how this will format on the forum as it's copy/paste from Pages.

My objective is to regain my core strength (particularly in the shoulder). I've lost 2kg already.

My plan is to inject board training (A la Lore) from week six.

So by week six, I will be :-

Monday.     board

Tuesday:   Power Prgm

Wednesday: Campus

Thursday:    Rest.

Friday:      Power Prgm

It is working.

My strength has rebounded fantastically and my shoulder is stable and pain free.

I will start climbing from week 12 and not before (I mean hard problems, not laps of the V1/2 circuit).

This is the power programme.



Power programme


Twice a week, with at least 24 hrs between sessions.

Warm up first!

Part 1
Shoulders


starting reps.rep increase
per week.Max rep
With an empty bar.

Halos 10 in each direction.nana

Mil press 20nana

Behind the neck press20nana



With a light dumbbell (~5kg).

Halos10 in each direction.nana



The Swordsman routine.

With an empty bar/broom handle/long bar.

Vertical raise/lowers.10 each arm.230

Horizontal swipes.10 each arm230

In-out diagonals10 each arm230

Out-in diagonals10 each arm230

starting reps.rep increase
per week.Max rep

Therabands.

Using as many bands as you
find comfortable

Symmetric flies20 240

Asymmetric flies20240

Overheads10120

Ski poles10120

Pull downs20120

Pull apart behinds10120


Part 2

Free weights.


Overhead.

Using the 6kg bar
with 40-50kg

Behind the neck press10120

2 min. rest.

Military press10120

2 min rest

Upright rows10120

2 min rest.

Legs

Squats10120

2 mins rest
(add the max weight you can lift)

Dead lifts10120Part 3

Core

starting reps.rep increase
per week.Max rep
On the bar

Windscreen wipers20240

On the floor

Crunches50170

2 min rest

Left oblique crunch25140

2 min rest

Right oblique crunch25140

2 min rest

Leg raises50170


Part 4

The Breaker.

Using the floor, the large Lapis balls (side grip)
and slot 2 of the Beastmaker.

Press ups10

Lapis Pull ups10

Press ups10

BM Pull ups10

X 6 sets.

Part 5

The Finisher.

With the 6kg weight belt, complete all the problems, of the hardest circuit you can wearing the belt.
Do not rest more than one minute between problems!

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#17 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 05:31:16 pm
Right, that was shite.
And Tapatalk won't let me edit it.

So...






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#18 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 07:07:47 pm
Glute Hamstring Raises are also a good posterior chain workout. more legs than back, but really good. 

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#19 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 12, 2015, 10:57:52 pm

This is the power programme.


Holy shit! some 28 exercises and 31 sets later, plus warm-up and finisher... how long does that lot even take!? Great if it's working for you and your shoulder rehab, but it's not what I'd describe as a power programme. All the reps are in the 10-70 range, more between hypertrophy and stamina.

For a max strength programme I'd focus on fewer exercises (eg 3-5 compound exercises and start on 5 reps x 3-5 sets for each, working down to sets of 2-3 reps as the weeks go by, increasing the weight, rather than increasing the number of reps.
Maybe have 2 different programmes alternating, 1hr for each, one for each of your 2 weights sessions per week, one starting with deadlifts and the other starting with back or front squats, and then add in other fundamental exs like cleans/power cleans, push press, weighted pull ups, OH squats, bench press, and then change to different variations after 6 weeks or so. To emphasise power over max strength, keep the weight a little lighter and ensure all reps are at high speed.

Could save you time and lead to more gains in the long-term...

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#20 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 13, 2015, 05:26:07 am
Do you guys doing deadlifts have a gym membership or weights at home. I'm struggling to justify spending £30/month to do a couple of weights sessions a week on top of the £40/month for climbing.

I have a gym membership - I've contemplated building up a home setup, but I find the act of going to the gym, normally at 5am, quite motivating.


This is the power programme.


Holy shit! some 28 exercises and 31 sets later, plus warm-up and finisher... how long does that lot even take!? Great if it's working for you and your shoulder rehab, but it's not what I'd describe as a power programme. All the reps are in the 10-70 range, more between hypertrophy and stamina.

For a max strength programme I'd focus on fewer exercises (eg 3-5 compound exercises and start on 5 reps x 3-5 sets for each, working down to sets of 2-3 reps as the weeks go by, increasing the weight, rather than increasing the number of reps.
Maybe have 2 different programmes alternating, 1hr for each, one for each of your 2 weights sessions per week, one starting with deadlifts and the other starting with back or front squats, and then add in other fundamental exs like cleans/power cleans, push press, weighted pull ups, OH squats, bench press, and then change to different variations after 6 weeks or so. To emphasise power over max strength, keep the weight a little lighter and ensure all reps are at high speed.

Could save you time and lead to more gains in the long-term...

My deadlift sessions, which also involve supplementary exercises like military presses, kettlebell swings and dumbbell snatches, take 45 mins max. I'm a huge believer in shorter, efficient sessions because it's much easier to get motivated for something that is an hour out of my busy day, rather than 2.5 to 3 hours. If I manage my session well, I can walk out of it exhausted, which is what I want.

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#21 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
February 13, 2015, 07:58:08 am
Actually, the whole programme takes around one hour, excluding the finisher.

It's slightly misleading in the way I've written it, in that I operate on a two minute cycle. At the start of the two minutes, begin exercising, rest out the remainder and start again.

My screen shooting has also somehow cut out the dorsal raises.

My objective is power endurance, rather than max strength (I'm quite strong).
And this cycle is intended to give me a good foundation before really hitting the climb specific training.
I will review it again at 8 weeks.

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#22 Re: Thoughts on Core Vs Body Tension
March 09, 2015, 08:16:36 pm
There is a way to make front levers more demanding on the core

http://instagram.com/p/0AaC-RIuOY/

 

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