[gme]

I think there is a huge advantage to not having to work everything out for yourself.  With the current body of training/technique information on climbing many people can climb 8a while holding down a job, family, and other outside obligations within a few years of picking up the sport.  30 years ago that wasn't the case.

I think there is a difference between improving technique on problems you can do and improving technique so you can do problems you previously couldn't do.
[/quote]

My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.

And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.

[slackline]

As an addition, I've never smoked but I know it's bad for you

Thanks for flippantly picking up on what I wrote, unfortunately you're comparing chalk and cheese.

This is epistemological, but how do you "know" that smoking is bad for you if you've never done it yourself?  Or is it something you've learnt from the work others have done?  Clearly its the later.

Smoking has been well studied scientifically to produce a body of knowledge as to its effects.  The effect is large in terms of the difference it makes (several orders of magnitude increased risk of certain diseases).  You accept this knowledge and choose not to smoke.

Climbing technique has not been studied anywhere near as broadly and rigorously in a scientific framework.  There is a body of evidence as to what constitutes 'good' technique and what constitutes 'bad' technique and books and articles/blogs have been written.  The effects are sometimes very marked, but they are more often very subtle in the difference improving ones technique can make to the ease with which a move can be completed, and its is a lot harder to convey in words and numbers what this difference is.  It could be done by sitting done and working out the physics and the forces involved, akin to a scientific (well engineering really) approach, but how many people do you realistically think will sit down and read a whole load of diagrams with angles, forces etc. for a very limited set of moves since the ground covered climbing is infinitely variable and then internalise that information, as you have done with the scientific evidence that smoking is bad, and then apply it effectively to the rock?

I'm sure you'd agree that no one is going to do that, and it would be impossible for anyone to sit down and just read books on technique and then go out and be able to execute them perfectly (in contrast its quite easy to read the information on smoking and decide its bad and choose not to smoke).  Rather what they do is they go and try it for themselves and learn kinaesthetically by trying different things to see what constitutes good and bad technique, this process can be self-reinforcing and once you start to get a good appreciation for what works you can read moves much quicker.  Everyone picks things up from others at the climbing wall to try for themselves when stumped on a problem and watching others.  Some read books on technique (e.g. the recommended Self Coached Climber or Goddard & Udini's Performance Rock Climbing). Some go and seek the advice of coaches to analyse their current climbing form and make recommendations for improvement.  But the 'crux' is that they then go and actually try the things themselves and see what difference things make, which is why I wrote that you can't fully appreciate good technique without having an appreciation for bad technique.

Your comparison with smoking is therefore glib but I expect you knew this when you wrote it.

[tomtom]

If you climb outside a lot you don't really have much choice as the problems dont change every time you go out so after a few trips to stanage/burbage/stoney/ the tor you have little option other than to repeat stuff you have done as part of your circuit. Modern walls don't allow this as they change all the problems so every time you go your trying to tick a new set, either flashing each problem or moving on after a few goes, rarely doing the same ones more than a couple of times so not enough to refine techniques and building up engrams. 

Most used to climb outdoors a lot more than now so we didn't have much choice ( I have problems i must have done 500+ times at Kyloe and Bowden). I think that is why we associate climbing outside as being better for training technique rather than walls where  as if you approached climbing at a good well set wall in the same manner the outcome would be the same.

I'm not sure I agree with you GME - but equally I may be missing your point... but...

I find repeating problems (at crags) good for refining technique rather than strength.. sure if you do the problem enough times your muscles get conditioned to that set of pulling/moves, but I think you also improve your technique over a range of levels.. You learn how hard or not you need to hold a crimp (for example), how subtle body position makes the problem easier/different. Theres a set of problems for me at Almscliff I must have done getting on 100 times (or so) and the refinements I have made over the years to these problems are nearly all technique based... I love doing problems that were hard for me by knack (ie technique)...

I see why walls alter problems so regularly - but it also annoys me - as you lose your touchstones, your calibration problems - by that I mean problems by which you can determine how well or not you are performing. Thats partly why I like doing the same problems at the crag - as it gives me an idea of how good or bad I am doing that day (as ageing the perpetual injury/fitness battle seems to make this more important..)

Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...

Just my tuppence worth.. I'm shit outdoors but even shitter in

[a dense loner]

Sorry slackers I was replying to johnnys assessment of my technique being amazing so people should listen to me. Which was of course saying lee's shit so why would anyone listen, at which point I brought the smoking "analogy" in. As in do as I say not as I do.

Nothing to do with your post at all 

[slackline]

 

I didn't pick up the sarcasm in Adams post and there was no use of quotes to indicate that was whom you were replying to.  I  mistakenly took 1 + 1 = sausages. 

No offence intended, I was just reinforcing what I wrote earlier.

[Johnny Brown]

No sarcasm intended - like Bruce, Lee moves like water on rock. Only it's frozen water - imperceptibly slowly followed by sudden collapse.

[moose]

Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...

I'm really getting into using the training boards at the back of the Depot lately.  Initially trying to up my pitiful power by using the 50ish degree board.  Now though, I'm getting into the 30ish degree board which has just been refitted with lots of crap downwards sloping footholds.  I feel (possibly wrongly) that this set-up partly addresses the weakness of indoor problems you cited - as it gives lots of possible solutions but they are all awful! Hopefully it will set up this year's route campaign - trying to quickly execute multiple foot moves on terrible smears, to allow a single hand move between nasty holds  - seems like it should be pretty good preparation for Malham! 

[Pebblespanker]

As a short weak old punter I find that outdoors allows me more room for creativity and imagination in the technique I use in solving a problem as I often have to use the main holds differently, intermediates, poorer foot holds etc; this often makes the easy problem harder but the bonus for me is experience in creative problem solving and learning maximum efficiency in using holds. Conversely indoors the local wall has no intermediates or textured wall surface and a fixed set of holds, that teaches me the techniques for getting round a different sort of problem that the alternatives available outdoors allows me to mostly avoid; so far so good, but... I've always felt that my technique issue is not physical but more mental in that I struggle to remember to use the lessons learned when I'm climbing and having the discipline to apply them consistently, especially footwork, even more so when out of my comfort zone. For me I would hope that better mental discipline would ingrain the technique to hopefully become second nature; so I think mental laziness essentially is the biggest barrier to improving my technique to a consistently high level, that and the fact I am a crap weak punter.

[gme]

I'm not sure I agree with you GME - but equally I may be missing your point... but...

I find repeating problems (at crags) good for refining technique rather than strength.. sure if you do the problem enough times your muscles get conditioned to that set of pulling/moves, but I think you also improve your technique over a range of levels.. You learn how hard or not you need to hold a crimp (for example), how subtle body position makes the problem easier/different. Theres a set of problems for me at Almscliff I must have done getting on 100 times (or so) and the refinements I have made over the years to these problems are nearly all technique based... I love doing problems that were hard for me by knack (ie technique)...

I see why walls alter problems so regularly - but it also annoys me - as you lose your touchstones, your calibration problems - by that I mean problems by which you can determine how well or not you are performing. Thats partly why I like doing the same problems at the crag - as it gives me an idea of how good or bad I am doing that day (as ageing the perpetual injury/fitness battle seems to make this more important..)

Another reason for doing more outside than in - is that there are often so many different ways to do a problem outdoors (especially with grit/sandstone) whereas at the wall there is normally one or two ways - and thats it.. I think this helps people learn how to use technique in their own context - for their own body/strength/flexibility etc.. rather than for connecting 5 pink blobs...

Just my tuppence worth.. I'm shit outdoors but even shitter in
[/quote]

Sounds like your totally agreeing with me. The only think your maybe not is that i feel well set stuff in doors could teach technique just as well as outdoors.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm sure well set problems indoors teach indoor technique better than rock would. I'm not convinced they can ever teach technique for rock better than rock.

[gme]

Thant goes without saying surely. I feel that people assume you cant learn to have good technique climbing indoors which used to be the case due to the type of walls but not anymore.

Just trying to debunk the go to response of "go climbing outside" to this question.

People can learn to be much better technically whether indoors or out its what you do that's important not where they do it.

[blamo]

My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.

And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.

 

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well.  I wasn't trying to argue against what you were saying.  I think I am just really splitting your suggestion into two pieces:

1) Find something you can do poorly and repeat it until you can do it well

2) When you can't do something, start with an easier version of it and work up to being able to do it

[Sasquatch]

My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that. I would put money on it that if you had a coach with you every session you climbed they would have you repeating stuff over and over.

And as to your last comment i am sorry but that is just bollocks. You learn technique on easy stuff then progress. If you want to learn how to dead lift do you learn good technique with loads of weight on the bar? No you start with very little weight until you can do it correctly. Learn to play guitar by playing copying Hendrix. No you learn a few chords to start.

 

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well.  I wasn't trying to argue against what you were saying.  I think I am just really splitting your suggestion into two pieces:

1) Find something you can do poorly and repeat it until you can do it well

2) When you can't do something, start with an easier version of it and work up to being able to do it

Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt.  Climber A has been climbing for about 1-2 years and is bouldering 7A at the wall 6A outside.  Climber B has been climbing for 5 years and is bouldering 7A at the wall, and 6C outside.   Or take climber C who can RP 7A and Flash/OS 6C+. 

I think what you're saying is ideal for climber A, but not for Climber B or C. 

I have learned more about the nuances of advanced technique working projects and developing new problems than any amount of "repetition" would teach me.  And I think it's far more applicable to pushing your limits in terms of repointing-particularly bouldering. The catch is that this is generally outside rather than inside, without knowledge of the beta, which means being creative with sequences and experimenting.  I feel like this experimentation tends to teach you more than repetition.  Do the same thing down at the wall, and you'll learn more as well.    If you climb v5, then pick a v8 or v9, and try to climb it with any feet.  You'll start to learn that you pull differently on crap holds with both your hands and feet, and you'll naturally learn to optimize your feet. 

[blamo]

Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt. 

This is a good point.  What would be your overall approach/suggestion to improving technique for someone in the V8/9 range wanting to break into the V10 range?  Is this an area where you need to learn a lot more moves or is it more subtle and you have to camp out on V10? 

It definitely seems like the approaches to technique for bouldering are different than the approaches to technique for climbing on a rope... 

[gme]

Sasquatch. Is working problems not just another form of repetition. You don't do the problem once you have done the moves. You repeat the moves over and over to refine how you do them. Exactly what I suggest.

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch. Is working problems not just another form of repetition. You don't do the problem once you have done the moves. You repeat the moves over and over to refine how you do them. Exactly what I suggest.

Not really.  Both you and Blamo indicated working on stuff you can already climb and repeat them to get better at them.   Doing something you can already do doesn't force improvement.  It MAY end up with improvement if you are consciously thinking about improving every single time you repeat it.  Whereas working out something at your limit forces perfection in movement or improvement in strength. 

And I think it you're trying to improve your technique, then not knowing the Beta is critical.  It will force you to experiment and learn to recognize when something will or won't work and you'll start to figure out/learn why as well. 

It definitely seems like the approaches to technique for bouldering are different than the approaches to technique for climbing on a rope... 

Yes/no - as Barrow mentioned earlier in the thread, there are different ranges of technique to consider, i.e. resting, pacing, etc. that are generally not as applicable in bouldering.  However, the ability to efficiently complete a move remains the same. 

Are we talking about the best ways for a beginner to learn new technique, or someone more advanced with more mileage under their belt. 

This is a good point.  What would be your overall approach/suggestion to improving technique for someone in the V8/9 range wanting to break into the V10 range?  Is this an area where you need to learn a lot more moves or is it more subtle and you have to camp out on V10? 

hmmm.  Outside or inside?  Outside, learn to be efficient and versatile on feet and feet options.  There are always feet of some nature, and you can almost always find scums/smears to assist in maintaining tension/balance.  Being able to confidently stand on the shittest hold also makes a huge difference.  As you mentioned, really pulling with your heel - but think both pulling towards your center as well as pulling down while extending the body, they are very different.  I'm quite good a one, but pretty crap at the other

Inside, not sure, I can barely manage v10 inside, so it's still a new frontier for me.

[blamo]

Sasquatch, Thanks for the suggestions.  Good stuff!   

[ghisino]

My post wasn't supposed to be about whether you need a coach or not, that's down to choice and a completely different topic. But having a coach telling you how to do something isnt going to improve your technique its repeated practice of what they tell you that does that.

spot on.

whenever i have customers coming for their climbing technique, i adress this point. My goal is to showing them a way to get where they want and they will need to do a lot of "homeworks" in between sessions.

Unfortunately some of them seem to use their technique as an excuse to hire a private belayer, which is good for my wallet but quite boring (and not overly effective for them, is suapect)

[Sasquatch]

I guess there should be some clarification too though.  I know people who when they go climb they warm-up on 1-2 problems then start working on some nails projects for a bit, maybe scraping their way up one or two.  This is their daily routine, and they end up with fairly shit technique despite working hard problems. 

I know people who do the same problems all the time, but never really through themselves at projects enough.  They don't really learn the subtleties of technique needed to climb harder stuff.   I think there is an optimal medium.  You have to look at your own situation and see where you stand. 

I'm not a believer in repeating the same problem over and over just to get better technique.  However, I am a big believer in overall volume of problems of all styles, rock types, grades, etc. 

[cha1n]

Nobody can arbitrarily answer these "what should I do to climb x grade" questions. Go try a handful of V10s and think about why you're failing, then go train that thing.

Let's put it this way,  I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.

I'm not sure how someone could get to V9 standard and still have bad technique, massively over strong I guess?!

[Duma]

Let's put it this way,  I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.

Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?

[ghisino]

I know people who do the same problems all the time, but never really through themselves at projects enough.  They don't really learn the subtleties of technique needed to climb harder stuff.   I think there is an optimal medium. 

my french mentors would say it's a matter of optimal challenge.

too small a challenge=nothing new is learned
too big= it is beyond your understanding and you can't learn anything from it right now.

i'd say it is also a matter of how

even trying problems in that "optimal challenge" range, there is a big difference between:
-just trying trying and trying again, like this 
-doing your best to read problems and give them your best flash attempt, step back after failure, visualize your last moves and how you could have done differently, etc
(which most of us will do naturally and even unconsciously at some point, but is not obvious for all climbers transitioning from "beginner" to "passionate/hardcore/experienced")

being a beta freak with a penchant for guru stuff i insist a lot on this with climbers around say 5c-6c (routes) and i see a wide array of reactions. Some like it and give this kind of stuff a real effort and adopt it as a systematic approach, with good results.
Others are like "why should i take it so seriously, i just want to climb better and enjoy it, not to send biographie or flash boulder wc problems". Usually they keep climbing the same way unless i have them repeating a boring drill for 20 minutes, and spend the remaining 40 minutes beta-flashing them.

[cha1n]

Let's put it this way,  I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.

Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?

I appreciate that you're messing around Duma but of course I've considered that.

The fact is that I'm always the weakest in the group I'm climbing in at my grade range, and usually still the weakest if I'm climbing with people climbing a few grades below me. I like to think that I must be doing something right to be the weakest in the group but still get up stuff (disclaimer: I've been weak AND shit lately).

I'm not complaining though, most people at my level are doing some form of strength training whereas I just to go the wall and climb stuff twice a week.

I was just saying that surely you couldn't be a solid 7C climber and not have good technique? I'd imagine the *main* way you're going to improve your grade at this level (apart from sieging specific problems) is to get stronger in some capacity?

[Duma]

Let's put it this way,  I don't recall falling off of V10s because my technique was poor (though if they had been slabs then this would have been the case), it's always been because I'm weak.

Have you considered that you may have fallen off them because you're too weak to do them with poor technique?

I appreciate that you're messing around Duma but of course I've considered that.

The fact is that I'm always the weakest in the group I'm climbing in at my grade range, and usually still the weakest if I'm climbing with people climbing a few grades below me. I like to think that I must be doing something right to be the weakest in the group but still get up stuff (disclaimer: I've been weak AND shit lately).

I'm not complaining though, most people at my level are doing some form of strength training whereas I just to go the wall and climb stuff twice a week.

I was just saying that surely you couldn't be a solid 7C climber and not have good technique? I'd imagine the *main* way you're going to improve your grade at this level (apart from sieging specific problems) is to get stronger in some capacity?

As you say, I'm messing - I've climbed with you Ross, and know just how "weak for the grade" you are. I'd agree this is often a sign of good technique, but I do think that often people will misdiagnose the issue as being "not strong enough", when better technique, or better flexibility (I'm looking at you TT) could allow them to climb the moves in question at their current level of strength.

[blamo]

I agree that you can't identify the subtle issues where people suck at technique much beyond V6ish (at least to my untrained eye).  However, I have noticed that people who climb in the V13 and above range are capable of moving much differently.  They tend to use their legs and hips much like us punters use our hands...  There seems to be things people suck at, in a general sense, at every grade.  E.g. the learn how to place your feet in the V5 and below, the learn how to try hard in the V7 range,...  Of course these are massive generalizations.

Anyway, cha1n I am perhaps at the opposite end of the spectrum (the overly strong with shit technique).  I am not saying I scratch and claw my way up stuff, but I have noticed that people less strong than me can float up stuff because of body position and better technique...  I follow your advice to a tee.  Can't do problem A, then go hangboard until you can.  While I see many people who are much weaker do problem A by "climbing better."