[ghisino]

aka head-butting the wall

[cha1n]

1) silent feet drills (climb routes/problems with completely silent feet)

This isn't the first time I've heard people doubt the value of silent feet. I read the self-coached climber before I started climbing, so started the silent feet drills straight away. Back in the day I would just give up on a move if I couldn't do it with perfectly silent feet but I'm not so strict now.

I remember watching Tim Emmett and Dave Pickford doing circuits at TCA and they definitely were not doing silent feet. If anything it sounded like they were doing loud feet but they were placing their feet quickly. I think both of them are decent climbers so that definitely made me rethink the silent feet thing too...

[ghisino]

many drills are meaningful or not depending on the climber and how they are "sold" to him/her

silent feet and similar stuff (the bleausard coin thing or long draws attached to the heel loops) are good for beginners in order to draw their focus on foot placement, something they often have trouble with.
Even though 90% of the problem is that they rarely adopt body positions that make it easy to move one of their legs (eg on slabs they do not fully shift their balance from one foot to the other)

the same drills lose value as soon as they are taken as standards of perfect foot placement, especially by more advanced climbers.

but such is the nature of many drills, imho.

another example taken from this thread: "3 foot moves per hand move".
if done in combination with variations such as half foot move, 1 foot move and 2 foot moves version, on the same route by the same climber, the drill has a place (developing several "transition patterns" to be used in between hand moves)
But as already pointed out, 3 foot moves per hand move is not "good technique" in itself and may even be a very poor pattern in some (most) cases.

[a dense loner]

I'm sorry but anyone advocating silent feet, one handed climbing or blindfolded climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.

[TheTwig]

I guess silent feet is a bit of a misnomer, as what most people are trying (i hope) is to learn to place their feet quickly and accurately. I learnt alot about footwork from slab climbing, as often it's near impossible to just match a hold and thug around until you've done the 'move'. Highly recommended . Those drills I find are good to pass the time when warming up, I would argue that whether or not in themselves are improving technique, they make you more aware what you are doing with your feet in general which can't be a bad thing.

To be honest if someone warms up doing 3 feet for 1 hand and then climbs like that on their limit boulder/redpoint or whatever, then they're probably a lost cause already 

[jwi]

I'm sorry but anyone advocating [...] one handed climbing [...] climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.

Seems to work well for Kev Shields 

[ghisino]

I'm sorry but anyone advocating silent feet, one handed climbing or blindfolded climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.

ok but after you shot me, try one handed climbing on a gently overhanging wall 

[chris j]

One thing I hadn't seen mentioned yet, for beginners I've found no-hands climbing on slabs good for helping improve balance, weight transfer etc. - give said beginner a tennis ball in each hand, no hooking of the tennis balls on holds. Always good to see someone stick their ass out too far and topple off backwards while attempting a not very high step...

[Johnny Brown]

I'm sorry but anyone advocating [...] one handed climbing [...] climbing should be shot at fucking dawn.

Seems to work well for Kev Shields 

Lee's technique is impeccable, so he's worth listening to on this. I think.

[Dexter]

aka head-butting the wall

we call it the cockney head

[SA Chris]

The Glasgow Kiss.

[a dense loner]

So how many times have you climbed blindfolded or one handed Johnny? Scratch the last one since I know it's on certain pony circuits 
Crock of horse shit that you feed to people who want to part with their money.
As an addition, I've never smoked but I know it's bad for you

[Will Hunt]

Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.

Think about specificity in training. This stuff about drills is all very well, but I actually think its probably best directed at intermediate/advanced climbers, who have an all round base of good technique, but who need to master a particular aspect of this in order to do a specific problem or route. Climbing is just so varied that there is no single way of isolating a certain type of move i.e. "rockovers" - because even within the bracket of 'rockovers' there is almost infinite variety. You would be better off trying to replicate whatever move it is that's stopping you and practicising on it.

How to get that good base of technique? Simple - go and climb rock (this is something that has not been suggested in two pages of discussion. Not indoor walls - rocks. Easy bouldering is best, and by easy I mean not so easy that you can do it blindfolded, or even necessarily flash the problem, but not so hard that you cannot have a degree of focus on what you're doing. If you find a problem particuarly enjoyable, repeat it. You will notice what works and what doesn't as your technique subtly varies. On rocks you will find the necessary variety that you won't find at the climbing wall and, best of all, climbing rocks with good technique is really transferrable to climbing rocks with good technique.

I really really don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but in the past few months at least three separate people have told me that I have good technique. This is rather embarrasing. Not for me; for them. I don't have good technique, it is average at best. JB has good technique. Tom Peckitt has immaculate technique. Did you see that video of him doing the direct to Ill Gotten Gains? Watching that sort of precise, graceful motion is like listening to a beautiful piece of music. It is flawless. The fact of the matter is that people seem to have very little interest in easy(ish) bouldering these days. They get down the wall for hours and hours and hours and then go out to pull down hard on a couple of problems. This is especially the case with young climbers who have only ever done this and have never spent the hours in just enjoying movement on rock.

There are countless venues where this kind of circuit-like climbing is a dream. Almscliff, Rochard, Hugencroft, The Roaches, Lord's Seat (90% of climbers seem to do McNab and Deep Black - incidentally one of the worst problems at the crag - and then leave), Shipley Glen, Hunter's Stones etc etc etc etc)

Sorry, I've ranted.



Last thing. If you want to speed up the process then get into the habit of visualising what you've just done when you fall off something. Relive the problem in your head and visualise what it felt like. You will realise why it was that you fell off, and it is quite rarely because you just weren't pulling hard enough.

[Falling Down]

Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.

With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.

[abarro81]

Worth noting that 'technique' and 'technique' are different - circuits around grit crags will not help you much in most caves, and vice-versa, so you need to do lots of climbing on lots of different rock types. Ditto, route technique and boulder technique are not always the same, i.e. techniques involved in climbing efficiently on ground which is moderately difficult for you can be quite different to that involved in climbing moves at you limit... The 'technique' of establishing what ways of climbing a move will work on link vs off a rope matter too - the best way to climb a move is not always a fixed thing, and may depend on whether it's move 1, move 21 or move 81 on a route/problem, as well as the relative importance of speed etc..

With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.

There's another one to watch out for - good trad technique is a million miles away from good steep sport technique.

[gme]

Only one way to learn technique, repetition repetition repetition. Thats how it is in all sports so why would climbing be any different.

Have you never noticed how if you repeat the same problems a lot they get easier, i suggest this is more to to do with learning efficiency than getting stronger even on steep problems. even someone with poor technique will get better and better through repetition and then carry it over to the next problem of that type. Forget all the quiet feet/blindfolds/1 handed stuff and just do the problem you just sketched up again and again until you do it well.

If you climb outside a lot you don't really have much choice as the problems dont change every time you go out so after a few trips to stanage/burbage/stoney/ the tor you have little option other than to repeat stuff you have done as part of your circuit. Modern walls don't allow this as they change all the problems so every time you go your trying to tick a new set, either flashing each problem or moving on after a few goes, rarely doing the same ones more than a couple of times so not enough to refine techniques and building up engrams. 

Most used to climb outdoors a lot more than now so we didn't have much choice ( I have problems i must have done 500+ times at Kyloe and Bowden). I think that is why we associate climbing outside as being better for training technique rather than walls where  as if you approached climbing at a good well set wall in the same manner the outcome would be the same.

 It did lead to a lot more show ponies than now though, the only ones you see now are on the campus board and beastmaker.

[Sasquatch]

Only one way to learn technique, repetition repetition repetition. Thats how it is in all sports so why would climbing be any different.

Most sports have coaches who lead people down the "good" technique path. Most of the folks without coaches or coaching end up punters or injured.  So you're right, why would climbing be any different?

Aside from the fact we have very few quality coaches, but from watching my kids coaches I'd say that it's not just climbng that has crap coaches

Here's a novel idea. Go and do lots of rock climbing.

For someone operating in their first 0-3 years of climbing, I'd agree with this.  And heck, I even do this after 20 years of climbing, but I'd not say I have good technique as a result.

You get better at what you do.  I can pretty much guarantee climbing a load of v2-v4 problems are not going to teach you the technique it takes to climb v10.  However, It will teach you the technique to not pitch off the v2 topout  

[gme]

[/quote]
Most sports have coaches who lead people down the "good" technique path. Most of the folks without coaches or coaching end up punters or injured.  So you're right, why would climbing be any different?[/quote]

The level of repetition in other sports compared to climbing is not comparable.  Unless you have the boredom threshold of Barrows you wont even be able to do 1% of 1% of the repetition levels that can cause injury that you get in any ball sport, running, throwing, swimming etc. so i dont think climbing something repeatedly with bad technique will cause injury, its more likely to happen through overload.

And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try. We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we. Big, obvious things like using an outside edge, drop knees etc can be learned just by standing back for five minutes and watching someone else do the problem. The nuances of great technique you will pick up naturally the more times you do the problem.

[Falling Down]

With a rope on doing fantastic trad routes on the grit, limestone and mountain crags.

There's another one to watch out for - good trad technique is a million miles away from good steep sport technique.

I agree 100% but as a relative beginner you can't go wrong with a good foundation of climbing a variety of routes on different rock types to build a good base of movement fluency and then move onto steeper stuff.  Plus you learn to top out...

[ghisino]

And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try.

yes, but

We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we.

when you were a child and your brain was wired for that. Pre-puberal children are often "naturals" at picking up good motor skills. They can be tachnically impressive on their first climbing session ever, provided that they're enthusiastic and not too scared.

It is often more difficult to induce them verbally to do a certain kind of move, than to throw them at a sequence of holds where that move is the only way to go.

As adults we are much slower and becoming a "motor learner" again is harder than you make it sound, and especially so if you didn't play sports in the "right" way (with enough committment and attention to what you were actually doing) during puberty.

Thats were a good coach can help, at least from the French point of view.




@dense
if one handes climbing is so ineffective, why would the italian 9a climber and campus-boarding guru Jolly Lamberti advocate it, often as the only climbing content in strenght sessions which are mainly consisting of campusing and weighted fingerboarding?

and for blindfolding, why in the hell have i seen that prescribed by national youth coaches to to national-level teens at Pole France Escalade, on comp-style boulder problems? (mind, that's probably 1% of their training time there. but they did do it)

that said, yes, there's a circus element in it and maybe you should not try them in public if you're giving a shit about what peers might think and say when they see you. But then you also have a potential "sports psychology" issue to be adressed one day or another...

[kelvin]

Last thing. If you want to speed up the process then get into the habit of visualising what you've just done when you fall off something. Relive the problem in your head and visualise what it felt like. You will realise why it was that you fell off, and it is quite rarely because you just weren't pulling hard enough.

This is sorta true, if you're working something and in a relatively calm frame of mind but if you are a genuine punter like me, above your gear and a little pumped, pressuring yourself to get the onsight - it's hard sometimes to see what went wrong, it's lost in a haze of fear and adrenalin.

[blamo]

And i also think that a majority (not all) people will work out technique for themselves if they try. We all managed to learn to walk, run, stand on one leg without a coach didn't we. Big, obvious things like using an outside edge, drop knees etc can be learned just by standing back for five minutes and watching someone else do the problem. The nuances of great technique you will pick up naturally the more times you do the problem.

I think there is a huge advantage to not having to work everything out for yourself.  With the current body of training/technique information on climbing many people can climb 8a while holding down a job, family, and other outside obligations within a few years of picking up the sport.  30 years ago that wasn't the case.

I think there is a difference between improving technique on problems you can do and improving technique so you can do problems you previously couldn't do.

[Nibile]

and for blindfolding, why in the hell have i seen that prescribed by national youth coaches to to national-level teens at Pole France Escalade, on comp-style boulder problems? (mind, that's probably 1% of their training time there. but they did do it)

Because they are French, and therefore liars by nature. They try to fool you that it's all "ooohhh ze rock iz good" "pas le genoux" "ohhhh la la la la dalle est tres bonne" while in reality the bring up the little bastards on campusing and weights at the crack of the whip.
 
Bear in mind that I come from French origins.

[ghisino]

@ nibs

 

[Nibile]

QED.
P.s. My ears!!!