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Focus - on what? (Read 14804 times)

Muenchener

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#25 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:57:54 pm
OK, so it sounds like fear of falling as such isn't the issue. Another thought: how are you at reading sequences? I know it used to be a major weakness of mine (still is, but less so) - I much preferred slabby/techy stuff where the moves might be tricky, but I had all the time in the world to stand around and figure them out.

When it gets steeper that's a luxury you don't have any more. Onsighting pumpy - safe - things you have to learn to quickly see a sequence that should work and try it. And redpointing, you should already know the sequence but you have to know when it's time to stop pondering and just carry out The Plan.

Quote
I was more than happy to take a back seat Alan -
 helped you achieve your goals.

Much appreciated

moose

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#26 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:00:55 pm
I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Aye, I know a lot of people who spend a good proportion of their precious crag time bemoaning the training injuries and fatigue that have kiboshed their plans to crush.  It would be a crying shame to spend the start of a holiday broken.  I'm hardly a role model for anyone, but I think my routine of no proper training regimen (doing whatever outdoor routes I can whenever possible, bouldering outdoors or indoors during the winter) but almost never being injured and ready to go for it every weekend/holiday has some compensations.  Coaching and highly specific training routines might well be the most efficient / rapid way to improve if done properly but at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice - always very reassuring to be certain that you are capable of any route crux you will encounter - and it's got to be less tedious than endless "aerocap" laps"!

chris j

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#27 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:13:25 pm
From what I recall from Torbryan last year Kelvin you weren't overly comfortable on the slightly overhanging ground (though willing to go for it!) Some unfamiliarity with steep ground technique but also running out of puff quite quickly (one probably exacerbates the other). I would go with the coaching idea, if nothing else book a session for the coach to look at you and identify your weaknesses. I did this 18 months ago and spent 2 hours going through indoor leading, bouldering, technique, strength, tactics etc which was revealing and threw up some things that I'd always thought were my strengths.

Other than that, I would split time between hard bouldering to build power/technique and indoor leading on long overhanging lines - as has been said this is what you're going to be facing in Spain.Otherwise you can go to Spain as a strong boulderer and get shut down 5 metres up every route... And outside climbing, exercises to keep your shoulders balanced against all the pulling down you'll be doing.

kelvin

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#28 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:14:18 pm
 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   


Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.





Cheers fella - I actually thought this was a pretty good anaerobic capacity performance for someone of my level? Going by the Barrows pdf. I'd have said aerocap was by far my weaker of the two capacities but maybe I'm wrong? Dunno. Slightly confused by this.

I ran a 70 mile ultra a couple of years back, did an adventure race, spent a month in the Alps this summer and hit the welsh3000s in May as a norm, so my general fitness is not too shabby. 500 vertical metres and hour on swiss mountain paths.

Point taken about slowing down on the campus rail and I'll add in a few foot movements too.  :)

kelvin

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#29 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:24:29 pm
Cheers Moose Chris and Muench - all taken on board.

You're right Chris, I was running out of puff really quickly back then but the aerocap seems to be sorting that. I was well out of my depth that day but really enjoyed it, if lacking in technique. Back on the ropes indoors now once a week, tackling roofs of late but will be moving on to the comp wall shortly.

Thanks everyone for the input.

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#30 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:37:26 pm
Yep - Sounds like your "outdoors" fitness is good to go :)

Definitely better then mine anyway. 

Re: ancap vs aerocap

My mistake just reread his pdf and I was confusing ancap with aeropow. 


bendavison

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#31 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:40:41 pm
at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice

 :agree: Structured training isn't necessary at this stage. And not meaning to be offensive, but from your feats of strength/foot on campussing (sounds like bloody good ancap to me!), it sounds like you need to learn how to move efficiently - doesn't necessarily mean overt dropknee/kneebar trickery.

You'll get good at pulling by doing some steep/slightly overhanging bouldering/board stuff. Get to know the board/wall so you end up with some benchmarks and a reasonable spread of problem difficulty and hold types.
Be willing to spend a session on something, but contrary to others on here, I find that its better to try stuff where you can get a few moves linked after a bit of effort (~30 mins?), rather than trying and failing on one move all the time. But be analytical/pragmatic - e.g. make up problems which target certain things, and then tweak them as minutely as possible to get the intensity right to force improvement, and adjust as you get better. This should also get you better at using momentum, improve coordination, core etc.

If you want to mix it up after a month or two, do a period with some longer boulders/boulder reps. You can monitor the rest times on these if you want to monitor improvement, just try and reduce the rest till it seems too short, then make it harder.

Throw in some sessions occasionally where you just go and do a circuit of problems at the wall and/or some aerocap style stuff - lots of routes not at your limit will do. So maybe once a week of each (circuit and routing) for now, and more closer to the trip, with one more pumpy session a week before the trip.

Get out sport climbing when possible, especially closer to the time (or in summer if that's when you're likely to have time/conditions). Try and relax (i.e. let go till you almost fall off) and do volume - easiest way to 'get fit'.

Edit: a coach would be nice, but I reckon you will be fine without one with a bit of thought.

moose

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#32 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 08:44:51 pm
When I first started climbing, having no car but living in a house with a sturdy kitchen door-frame and having a slightly obsessive nature meant that I rapidly gained strength to the point where most mornings, whilst making my cups of coffee, I was doing three batches in quick succession of 30+ pull-ups from the door-frame's first-joint edge.  Unfortunately, relative to such beasting, I couldn't climb for shit (except for a small number of lank-lover's problems I bouldered up to F6c, and route climbed around f6b).  I got a car, lost my job, and started to climb on real rock instead - a few years later I had eventually ticked off most of Caley and Almscliff's finest at F7b+-F7c.  On revisiting my beloved door-frame, I found that I couldn't do five pull-ups!  This led me to suspect that building physically isn't the only way of improving, substantial gains can be made by learning how to move in the manner that suits you best - essentially developing "knack". 

Similarly this last couple of years, I've got really into RPing routes on Yorkshire limestone.  Due to working commitments and general physical decrepitude, I reckon I'm weaker than I ever have been.  But, I'm improving pretty steadily never-the-less.  Mainly, I suspect, because of technical and tactical gains - I've become far less afraid of falling, can climb more smoothly, and have a better idea of how to pace my efforts - milking rests for all they're worth but then going absolutely all-out for crux sections, pausing as little as possible (by my standards, i.e. still very slowly by most people's) and having sufficient faith in bolts and belayer to commit to one more move, even when shaking and gasping. 

Essentially, what I'm trying to say, in a round about way, is that the OP shouldn't get too hung up on systematic training.  At least not at the expense of enjoyment or risking injury; unless you prefer such work-outs to a more free-form approach.  If not, just climb a lot.  Get used to pulling hard.  Get used to falling in the pursuit of one-more-move.  Get comfortable with your own capabilities.  Natural adaptation and habituation should hopefully allow you to achieve your goals.

kelvin

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#33 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 09:55:52 pm


Essentially, what I'm trying to say, in a round about way, is that the OP shouldn't get too hung up on systematic training.  At least not at the expense of enjoyment or risking injury; unless you prefer such work-outs to a more free-form approach.  If not, just climb a lot.  Get used to pulling hard.  Get used to falling in the pursuit of one-more-move.  Get comfortable with your own capabilities.  Natural adaptation and habituation should hopefully allow you to achieve your goals.

Cheers for the encouragement Moose, nice to hear someone say they climb harder now they're weaker. Essentially, your last few sentences are why I'm heading off to Spain. I'll be honest and say I've never redpointed anything, it's a whole new skill I need to learn this summer before I go.

I had a pretty bad accident a few years back, broke the wrist/forearm in 26 places, was run over, reversed over blah blah and added to the rugby and football wear and tear - my knees are basically shagged. The right one has grade 3/4 damage and the left has scar tissue from two tears on the medial ligament. Physio's orders are to stay off the steep boards, she's a climber, and I understand why. I've ignored her the last two weeks, gone for it on the 30 and 45 and after a visit yesterday to sort a badly swollen medial and tight adductor due to working a V5 - it's hard to argue with her. I tore the medial dropkneeing on the roof a couple of years back. I end up on the campus rail because it doesn't give my knees any hassle :( and gains are easy to quantify but it's in no way as satisfying as holding a move on the 45 with a drop knee tho. Easy answer is Malcolm Smith's - "get strong face on" but when you're naturally as weak as me, that's real tough.

I'll happily risk the knees outside on rock but on plastic? That seems a waste somewhat and that's the reason I've ended up on the campus rails with my feet on. Cheers for taking the time to reply, I think we're pretty much in agreement as to what's best - just get on rock and climb. Till then, I'm trying to make the best use of the eight months I have left in Dry County (rockless Northamptonshire).

kelvin

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#34 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:25:22 pm

 And not meaning to be offensive, but from your feats of strength/foot on campussing (sounds like bloody good ancap to me!), it sounds like you need to learn how to move efficiently - doesn't necessarily mean overt dropknee/kneebar trickery.


I surprised myself last night with the ancap but I am seriously weak in many areas - you may well be right that I don't move efficiently however and make the best use of what power/strength I have. Hard to analyse that myself tho and often mates when offering advice say "just pull..." and have no conception of the fact I can't  :shrug:

I explained to Moose why I stay off the steep boards as much as I can and the rest of what you suggest, I'm trying to put into practice as best I can. Always room for improvement tho. Thanks Ben, hope that the broken bones have healed well.

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#35 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:26:40 pm
at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice

 :agree: Structured training isn't necessary at this stage.

+1

Pre trip:
Go bouldering outside where you will need to get stronger to get up the problems

Do some sport climbing here and there as real rock climbs require skills beyond just pulling and it's good to be a bit in the groove

I'd talk to people with experience of long trips/limestone sports routes to think about how to approach your trip - personally I'd just get stuck in to routes you fancy, not too hard at first, but don't avoid the odd 'too-hard-for-me?' type route as you can always just lower off.

Get into onsighting out there-you'll improve plenty at this (but will fail lots too, it's part of the fun).

Accept you'll over and underperform at times.

Don't get injured.

Look after yiour skin, big priority that one if on sharp rock.

And have fun :)

kelvin

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#36 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:33:50 pm



 personally I'd just get stuck in to routes you fancy

And have fun :)

At my grades - I get to follow natural lines  :yes: and this naturally increases my fun quota. Happy days.

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#37 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 10:19:17 am
I'm never going to come back being a good climber

Not with that attitude you won't!

You don't need to give it the full Jerry Moffatt but I found that a confident "there's no reason why I can't climb this" was vital to improvement. Focus on the things you have in common with the people climbing harder than you rather than your differences. I guarantee there are more.

Accept you'll over and underperform at times.

Possibly the best advice in this thread. Every climber has good and bad days, the trick is not to agonise about it and just carry on trying your best.

Also, ignore indoor grades.   ;D

kelvin

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#38 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 01:30:44 pm


Also, ignore indoor grades.   ;D

Haha - Thankfully, everywhere is graded softer than Pinnacle. Visits to other places are good for the ego  ;D


Thanks everyone for all the input. I'll sit down later and really assess what everyone has suggested and how it applies to me but there is clearly plenty for me to work on before Spain.

Cheers!

kelvin

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#39 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 01:46:54 pm


Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 


Just wanna clarify something here - when you say you pause on each hold for 4 sec, is that with the both hands on a rail whilst you move your feet? I had a play last night for a while on the bigger campus rail, one minute on and one minute off and trying to hover one hand where it needs to go for a few seconds before placing it and then hovering the other one. Blew me apart to be honest after the evening before and felt a lot harder than holding on with both and moving the feet twice. Honestly, if you two are moving your feet and holding on one handed...  :ohmy:


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#40 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:06:33 pm
I move my feet with both hands on.  For example, when I do foot on campusing for Aeropow, my goal is 1:30-2:00 minutes where I will start with both hands on 1, back step right foot, reach left hand to 3, step right foot through to back step, reach right hand to 4, move right and left foot, match left hand on 4, move both feet, right hand to 3, move both feet, left hand to 2, move both feet, right hand to 1, move both feet, match left hand to 1, move both feet and repeat leading with right hand to 3.  I'd say this usually ends up taking about 20 seconds in total for 7ish moves, so about 3 seconds a movement. 

I agree with Nai that 4 seconds is likely a better goal, so next time I get to that cycle, I may go down that road.  Right now I'm leaning towards bigger movement on bigger rungs instead though.  So instead of going 1-3-4-4-3-2-1-1 on the small rungs, i'll probably do 1-4-7-7-5-3-1-1.  I think the bigger movement will automatically slow me down more as I have to set up more for each move as well as building better body tension when the holds are further apart. 

Nibile

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#41 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:41:06 pm
I found great benefits in doing the same - pausing 5 seconds on every move - with some benchmark problems that I have on my board and that I use for reference. I posted a vid somewhere here. The problems are 12 moves long so with the pauses and the feet moves it's a good workout.

Nibile

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#42 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:49:16 pm
There you go. Boredom and bulging forearms in low quality.



nai

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#43 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 08:22:15 pm


Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 


Just wanna clarify something here - when you say you pause on each hold for 4 sec, is that with the both hands on a rail whilst you move your feet? I had a play last night for a while on the bigger campus rail, one minute on and one minute off and trying to hover one hand where it needs to go for a few seconds before placing it and then hovering the other one. Blew me apart to be honest after the evening before and felt a lot harder than holding on with both and moving the feet twice. Honestly, if you two are moving your feet and holding on one handed...  :ohmy:

I start matched on 5 for 4s, then 5-4-3-2-1-1-3-5-5 (like to finish moving upwards), keeping both hands in contact between movements, feet only move as necessary to reach the rungs, this is an exercise for the forearms. Set length depends on my goal route but generally 25 reps or 10o seconds.

kelvin

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#44 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 10:19:07 pm
Cheers lads - I'll have a play around this weekend and see what feels right, I guess aiming for 3 sec to start with. My initial thoughts last night were that moving my feet about detracted from the forearms but that might be me subconciously making excuses. Interesting idea about finishing upwards...

Boredom

Nibs, when I first started lurking on UKB, I had a look at a few of your vids and wondered how anyone could enjoy such a thing - funny how my opinion has changed. Appreciate the effort linking them, sometimes the visual puts the point across better. Cheers.

kelvin

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#45 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 05:29:02 pm
Quick update

Thanks to everyone who offered advice, it was all gladly received and I'm busy applying much of what was suggested.

The coach thing cropped up a lot in the suggestions, way more than anything else and whilst I felt initially that it was a bit overkill for someone at punter level like me - I booked a couple of three hour, one to one sessions for earlier this week. It proved illuminating. I can honestly say that I could have climbed for another three years and not learnt of or discovered or seen the significance of some of the movement skills I was utterly unaware of, things I'm fully capable of even without that handful of talent that some are blessed with. Some I would even have discounted had I stumbled upon them as contrived or awkward. Also - BREATH! I had no idea that I held my breath all the time. No oxygen, no go. Literally.

I also realised that the things I have worked at and trained, like my footwork, are not too shoddy at all - so it's a matter of just tweaking lots of small things and putting in the hours to achieve a pretty decent gain. And even though I'm weak... I'm probably strong enough for my goals already.

By the time the fuel, hostel, wall admission and two sessions are added up, I could easily have had a decent trip to Spain but at the moment, the monies invested in the coaching seem like pounds well spent and will bring gains for years. Thanks everyone.

 :)

I went to see John Kettle up in Kendal in case anyone is wondering, not local at five hours each way for me but he did come recommended for movement skills. All the physical training shizzle I reckon I've sorted from you lot  ;)








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#46 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 06:07:47 pm

BREATH! I had no idea that I held my breath all the time. No oxygen, no go. Literally.


Just when you learn about breathing someone comes along and complicates with different types and ways to practice it:

https://www.trainingbeta.com/justen-sjong-breathing/

Apologies if you have already seen this.


kelvin

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#47 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 06:21:58 pm

2 Tru

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#48 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 10:29:26 am
Kelvin,

I climb at big rock Milton Keynes at a similar grade with similar training goals. Let me know if you need a training partner / belay next time you are heading down there. 

rich d

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#49 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 11:02:51 am
Kelvin what were the movements etc that you were missing? Be interesting to know

 

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