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Focus - on what? (Read 14805 times)

kelvin

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Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:20:43 pm
I'm off to Spain in October for 6 months and obviously am trying my best to get into some sort of climbing shape before I go. I'm never going to come back being a good climber but I'd like to come home, knowing at least I gave myself a chance before I went but the more I learn about myself and training, the less sense any of it makes  :'( Sorry for what may be a longish post.

I don't climb hard by any standards, I started last year feeling strong (I was lighter by 6kg than now) and flashed three indoor V4s, onsighted a french 6b (don't really do sports outdoors) and have ticked some E1s but usually soft runout things. There's no consistency however, on good days I'll waltz up E3/2 on second (I've tried leading them too) and the bad days are just bad. Managed a 6A and a 6A+ in font, both in a couple of goes each, ticked a few 6As on grit quickly and generally if I can do something, I do it within a go or two. I feel my ability to see moves is pretty good, footwork is neat and less passive than it was but I just have no pull at all. Basically, the 'just go climbing' advice people offer hasn't worked for me at all. I have a couple of weeks off due to injury or work and I'm back to square one. I hate climbing inside anyway, hence I view it as training to help me cope...

Training. A couple of years ago, I was struggling with getting pumped after about 8m at the local wall and had a session with Alex Fry, who said my footwork was fine but I was lacking in power endurance and gave me some foot on stuff to do, to improve it. I got stronger at shorter stuff, better at stuff I could already do but the pump got worse if anything. Looking back, I threw myself into that and forgot about all the aerocap I was doing before. To quote Alex Barrows pdf "increasing your anaerobic capacity thus increases your ability to produce lactate, meaning that it is essential to do sufficient aerobic capacity work whilst working on this energy system (and aerobic power work afterwards), or your body won’t be able to cope with this new ability and you’ll quickly find yourself very, very pumped. This is a rare example of ‘more is not always better’". I do feel due to my work, that I have a good ability to produce lactate anyway in my arms but when climbing I struggled to use this. I was getting horrendous flash pump that would basically end the day, sometimes resulting in bruising. Pretty disheartening.

So back in Dec, I set about aerocap again - 10 problems up to V2 (6/7min) then 6min rest, 10 sets of this. 20min of continuous climbing but staying away from the steep boards as I have a few knee issues when drop kneeing. Also toproping routes up to 6a, up to 10 times with no rests or 4x4s. Having (due to the pump issues) only managed one 6b at Pinnacle, I'm not miles from my limit on these. The flash pump hasn't occurred for a couple of months now. I'll keep on top of this as boulder sets allow or head to Big Rock to use the auto belay.

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.
Fingerboard - hardly been on these of late but fitting a Crusher rail at home today. I have strong middle fingers and everything else is weak. Can hang the upper monos but on the bottom rail, I can just about hang the 4 finger slots for a few seconds at best.
Pullups - I've seriously tried at various times to improve at these. I think I lack the signals in my brain to activate the muscles needed. I can manage three at best after a warm up. I managed five once, early last year. I can however manage two using the upper BM mono slots using my middle fingers. Go figure?!
Hanging one armed - has to be four fingers, has to be a jug, can't manage it using the big BM slot and trying it on say the middle sized campus rail is just laughable. A shoulder stability issue?

I've come to the conclusion, that the main thing holding me back is not fingers nor footwork but just shoulder and arm strength. If I can manage last nights ancap session and mono pullups, my fingers must be okay but I just can't pull in or up, certainly if there's no option to use but one arm only. I've asked everyone, I climb with some decent lads too but they all seem as confused as me as to why I can't climb harder. I spent most of last year working my weaknesses - slopers, jamming, being more dynamic but laybacks still stop me dead. I don't feel strong enough to apply the right technique.

Am I missing something obvious? Do I just need to add deadlifts to what I'm doing?

Any advice will be well received. I just wanna make the best use of the 8 months or so I have left.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 01:28:00 pm by kelvin »

James Malloch

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#1 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:27:13 pm
Nothing to do with training as such, but just being psyched and climbing lots will put you in good stead! Someone I know went from climbing 6b+ to 7c after spending 3 months in El Chorro.

After 6 months you could have huge gains!

kelvin

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#2 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:31:00 pm
just being psyched and climbing lots will put you in good stead

Basically the reason I'm heading off into the winter sun.

SA Chris

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#3 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:38:41 pm
I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Maybe some free weights for shoulders and back? See no mention of any core work either.

Nibile

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#4 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:41:40 pm
As said, your climbing form will grow by climbing loads in Spain.
You have to figure out which kind of routes you're going to climb mostly, though. Short and bouldery or staminafests?
8 months are a long time and I would seriously consider investing some money in a professionally developed long term training plan.
Other than this, I strongly advise you to set some benchmark problems and routes that can be used as parameters for your progress.
Then you'll be sure that you're moving in the right direction. Don't get too stressed about the details too soon.

nai

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#5 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 01:50:18 pm
Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.

Regarding your current situation, if I was you and had come to the same conclusion I'd probably go bouldering a lot and lift some weights to start with but if I really wanted to know my weaknesses and make sure I get the best out of the trip I'd probably hire a coach who could identify them and draw up a six month plan that will ensure I arrive in decent nick and with a strategy to stay at peak for the duration.

kelvin

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#6 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 02:16:00 pm
I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Maybe some free weights for shoulders and back? See no mention of any core work either.

I should have mentioned - I go to yoga once a week for an hour and also have planned 15 minute workouts (from a PT mate) that focus on the core and upping the metabolism. Mountain climbers, wideouts etc. Flexibility (hamstrings especially) is an issue but had a chat with the physio yesterday and have a load of stretches to add to the workload. I'm injury prone to be honest, mostly due to my own stupidity but I'm learning.


kelvin

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#7 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 02:31:43 pm
To nai and nibs

Cheers for the replies - I've considered getting a proper plan from a coach but to be honest, it feels a bit daft when I climb the sort of grades I do, I'm not exactly going to set Tom Randall's lattice board on fire. So I've been following Barrow's plan to a degree and trying to address issues/problems as they come up. Maybe I should reconsider this but who to ask? Northampton isn't exactly climbing central

nai - last night's foot on campussing was a bit uplanned, as I'd been to the physio that day with an unhappy medial ligament and addductor and no climbing was advised for a few days. I felt at the time that a move a second was way too quick but I'd not been on the smallest rails before and wanted to get some sort of benchmark, much as nibs advised. I did way more than I expected and next time, I'll follow your advice.

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#8 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 02:47:20 pm
Pullups - I've seriously tried at various times to improve at these. I think I lack the signals in my brain to activate the muscles needed. I can manage three at best after a warm up. I managed five once, early last year. I can however manage two using the upper BM mono slots using my middle fingers. Go figure?!
Hanging one armed - has to be four fingers, has to be a jug, can't manage it using the big BM slot and trying it on say the middle sized campus rail is just laughable. A shoulder stability issue?

I've come to the conclusion, that the main thing holding me back is not fingers nor footwork but just shoulder and arm strength.

It sounds like you are trying to improve shoulder/arm strength by doing pullups on a fingerboard? If you have weak arms, the easiest way to improve them is to do pullups on a pullup bar.

I used to struggle with lock offs (could barely lock off one-armed on a bar, or at 90deg, nevermind lock offs on rock) but working them on a bar made a big difference. I used a bike inner tube (attached to bar) with one hand and with the hand holding the bar I did lock offs at slightly bent, 90 deg. and full lock. I only did 6 reps each session (two of each angle) for about 7 sec. Progressed to not needing the inner tube, then doing the same exercises on a fingerboard.

Might be something you could try? Doesn't take much time per session.


Nibile

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#9 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 02:51:03 pm
Oh, by the way...
The Italian doctor who made the campusboarding and fingerboarding mistakes videos, has a very good advice: do not do pull ups on a fingerboard. The high stress imposed to tendons and joints, teamed with the pronated prehension and the elbow flexion, build a very dangerous ensemble.
I haven't done pull ups on a fingerboard in ages and never noticed the lack of them.

kelvin

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#10 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 03:02:16 pm


It sounds like you are trying to improve shoulder/arm strength by doing pullups on a fingerboard? If you have weak arms, the easiest way to improve them is to do pullups on a pullup bar.



I thought a fingerboard would have been more relevant but having never used a pullup bar, I don't know any different. We don't have one at the wall. I literally don't have one door frame that's suitable for most of the bars on offer, the expanding ones I've discounted as heard far too many horror stories. I'll see if I can rig something up over the fingerboard. Cheers r-man.

Nibs - do you have a link to that video please? can't say I've seen it. Mono slot pullups are the only party trick I have in my arsenal when it comes to climbing... please don't take my monos away  :please:

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#11 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 03:20:37 pm
I've considered getting a proper plan from a coach but to be honest, it feels a bit daft when I climb the sort of grades I do, I'm not exactly going to set Tom Randall's lattice board on fire. So I've been following Barrow's plan to a degree and trying to address issues/problems as they come up. Maybe I should reconsider this but who to ask? Northampton isn't exactly climbing central

I'd get a coach, life's too short to worry about being embarrassed about these things. It's obviously important to you or otherwise you wouldn't be on here writing about it. We're all relatively shit compared to the top end of climbing anyway (not very accurate considering its UKB but the point is valid).

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#12 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 03:23:09 pm
Oh, by the way...
The Italian doctor who made the campusboarding and fingerboarding mistakes videos, has a very good advice: do not do pull ups on a fingerboard. The high stress imposed to tendons and joints, teamed with the pronated prehension and the elbow flexion, build a very dangerous ensemble.
I haven't done pull ups on a fingerboard in ages and never noticed the lack of them.

Good advice, esp if the fingerboard in question isn't a wide one. I used to have a Metolius up at home which is nice and long. Pull ups on the jugs on that never gave me any problems. However, I only have a Beastmaker now and I quickly learned that my elbows didn't like pullups using that.

So, either get a bar or make two nice jugs and position them a good distance apart for wide pullups. Or, stop doing pullups at home.

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#13 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 03:26:54 pm
In response to your problems with pull ups and general upper body strength, I'd say you should investigate your shoulder stability. I was diagnosed with a weak back and poor scapular stability a few months ago as being major contributing factors to endless finger injuries. I'm just starting to address it but it seems to be making a difference to overall pulling strength and to my technique as well weirdly.

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#14 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:10:12 pm
I'll second the motion to get a coach, but I'd suggest they focus on your nonphysical attributes - technique (not just footwork), tactics, pace, and psychological elements.
A history of injuries at your grades suggests you may be making you current performances a lot more strenuous than they actually need to be. There may be some fundamental inefficiencies/instabilities with the way you move or your posture, which getting stronger fingers/arms/shoulders won't make any difference to. Some habits may need unlearning, this is a great time to do it!
Don't feel you're 'not good enough' to book coaching - the worse you are, the more you'll benefit!
Have an ace time in Spain   :2thumbsup:

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#15 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:20:55 pm
generally if I can do something, I do it within a go or two.

Agree about coaching in your circumstances btw.

I also wonder if stopping focusing on 'doing' problems will help you. How often do you try problems or routes that are way outside your perceived level?

Don't worry about finishing the problem, just worry about doing the move. After a while you'll be able to do the move. Then spend time focusing on linking into the next move.

Improved technique, finger strength, contact strength and 'pulling power' all in one exercise. But don't do it for too long at a time - I combusted my shoulder quite badly by sticking at the board sessions for week after week. Stick at it until the gains start to taper off. And go away and do a bunch of volume with your new turbocharged fingers.

I do think bumping up your strength and power will pay dividends. You can build endurance when you're out on your trip.

Muenchener

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#16 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:31:38 pm
If I might offer an observation based on our brief (but pleasant) experience of climbing together: you seemed quite happy to stay within your comfort zone: nice slabby slate, seconding/belaying. I appreciate that factors applied that might not apply to a regular climbing partnership - being polite to a visitor, not pushing the boat out with a belayer of unknown competence, etc. - but if it is a general pattern then that could be a large part of the problem.

Quote
(don't really do sports outdoors)

But that is exactly what you are going to Spain to do, so you'd better start doing some. You won't be doing many slabby runout trad climbs (unless you plan to visit La Pedriza) so you'll be outside your current comfort zone an awful lot of the time. Your comfort zone needs shifting. Simply making a point of getting on a few more steeper, butcher - but safely bolted - sport climbs might be the way forward.

Your self-diagnosis of your physical limitations may well be accurate, but physical factors aren't always the main or real issue.

Quote
Basically, the 'just go climbing' advice people offer hasn't worked for me at all

Sorry if this falls into that category.

SA Chris

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#17 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:37:36 pm
the expanding ones I've discounted as heard far too many horror stories.

The expanding ones are supposed to be used with two small  cups bolted to the doorframe to support it. I believe most horror stories are from people using it without the cups and relying on the expansion alone as support. I've got one with the cups screwed in place, and am quite happy to put my 14st weight on it. If you need to remove the cups there are just 3 small screwholes left in the wood, easily hidden with a bit of filler. 

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#18 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:42:50 pm
If you are good at roped climbing indoors you'd do well sport climbing in Spain. It is more or less exactly the same thing

6 months of climbing is a lot to ask of the body. Without knowing you, from what you write you seem to have weak shoulders and an underdeveloped posterior sling.

A good base is everything. You seem to have improved your climbing base by increasing volume. This is a good idea. You can let this phase last for 2 months more at least.  The increased efficiency you get from doing lots of moves could even improve your bouldering.

For preventing injuries I think you should ad a strength training program for at least 2 times a week for 5-6 months.

Same again here: Start by building a base for at least 2 months. In the base phase, do 10 (3) reps for 3-5 sets. For the strength phase decrease to ultimately around 4(1) reps for 4-5 sets.

I have written this program for my better half (she is at about your physical level but redpoints 8a on vertical ground, whenever she by some miracle hasn't been injured for the last 2 months):

2times a week:
With sling-trainer hanging from a pull up bar: (I made mine from a piece of rope laying around)
1) Standing row
2) Biceps row

with dumbell:
3) Dumbbell lying row

Body-weight:
4) Push-ups (with weight-west as you progress)
5) Pullups. Not more than what you can easily to for 3-5 sets with *perfect* form at 2s-2s cadence. This is probably 1 pull up at your current strength.

2 times a week: core training on the swiss ball.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:00:58 pm by jwi »

kelvin

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#19 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 04:56:59 pm
Wow! Thanks everyone.

Seems people think that getting a coach and a plan is the way forward, even at my level. I'll look into it.

And sort the pullup thing too - SA Chris, I've not seen them with cups before and seeing as I'm a decorator... no excuse not to.



I also wonder if stopping focusing on 'doing' problems will help you. How often do you try problems or routes that are way outside your perceived level?


I do think this was a bit of an issue, there's certainly been a fear of failure (maybe down to the fact I was scrambling and soloing long before being a climber and falling wasn't an option) and Muenchener clearly picked up on the fact I can be quite content playing the supporting role for other people. I did throw myself at stuff last year tho, took maybe 30 leader falls at trad, even a leader fall in winter, tried leading Eng 6a - yeah I'd say you would have been right not long ago but I've made some progress lately. It just feels that when I try harder stuff - I'm too weak physically.

And I hate the fact I have to say that, because saying I need to be stronger is such a bloody cop out but when you can see what to do and know how to do it but can't, what else is there left? :shrug:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:26:09 pm by kelvin »

kelvin

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#20 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:02:42 pm
Simply making a point of getting on a few more steeper, butcher - but safely bolted - sport climbs might be the way forward.



Yep. Totally correct and it will be Peak limestone sport all summer.

I was more than happy to take a back seat Alan - you were only over for a few days, I had all year to get stuff done in the UK. I was actually down in Portland a week or two ago on steep stuff with someone I didn't know and happily falling off, I rarely worry about belaying - at the time, I'd have rather helped you achieve your goals.

kelvin

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#21 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:13:18 pm
If you are good at roped climbing indoors you'd do well sport climbing in Spain. It is more or less exactly the same thing

6 months of climbing is a lot to ask of the body. Without knowing you, from what you write you seem to have weak shoulders and an underdeveloped posterior sling.

A good base is everything. You seem to have improved your climbing base by increasing volume. This is a good idea. You can let this phase last for 2 months more at least.  The increased efficiency you get from doing lots of moves could even improve your bouldering.

For preventing injuries I think you should ad a strength training program for at least 2 times a week for 5-6 months.

Same again here: Start by building a base for at least 2 months. In the base phase, do 10 (3) reps for 3-5 sets. For the strength phase decrease to ultimately around 4(1) reps for 4-5 sets.

I have written this program for my better half (she is at about your physical level but redpoints 8a on vertical ground, whenever she by some miracle hasn't been injured for the last 2 months):

2times a week:
With sling-trainer hanging from a pull up bar: (I made mine from a piece of rope laying around)
1) Standing row
2) Biceps row

with dumbell:
3) Dumbbell lying row

Body-weight:
4) Push-ups (with weight-west as you progress)
5) Pullups. Not more than what you can easily to for 3-5 sets with *perfect* form at 2s-2s cadence. This is probably 1 pull up at your current strength.

2 times a week: core training on the swiss ball.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, although I'm sure your lady has far better technique than me. (I actually don't climb ropes indoors much at all and I only had four days on limestone sport last year but really enjoyed the climbing when I wasn't flash pumped out of my skull.)

I'll google posterior sling later this evening. Aerocap on the campus rail and the fingerboard at home to sort yet.

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#22 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:29:06 pm
So i'll go in a bit of a different direction.  You'll be in spain for 6 months.  You will naturally develop endurance and technique applicable to the area once you're there as long as you're geting out enough.  What you have 8 months to do is get your body and fingers a striong and bomb proff as possible. 

I'd say you should look at some overall body strength work, and as mentioned by Meunchener, you're going to be doing a fair bit of sport outside.  Get used to doing more outside in general.  walking, hiking, etc. outside now and being used to being outside and active 5-6 days a week now will all make a big difference while you're there. 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 


nai

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#23 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:50:00 pm
So i'll go in a bit of a different direction.  You'll be in spain for 6 months.  You will naturally develop endurance and technique applicable to the area once you're there as long as you're geting out enough.  What you have 8 months to do is get your body and fingers a striong and bomb proff as possible. 

I'd say you should look at some overall body strength work, and as mentioned by Meunchener, you're going to be doing a fair bit of sport outside.  Get used to doing more outside in general.  walking, hiking, etc. outside now and being used to being outside and active 5-6 days a week now will all make a big difference while you're there. 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 



I move my feet as well but I want to be able to measure progress so stick religiously to the timer, find it's tempting to speed up as the pump builds otherwise which might get you to the end of the set but maybe not having performed the same quality of work.

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#24 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:56:17 pm
Good Point.  Metronome here I come :)

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#25 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 05:57:54 pm
OK, so it sounds like fear of falling as such isn't the issue. Another thought: how are you at reading sequences? I know it used to be a major weakness of mine (still is, but less so) - I much preferred slabby/techy stuff where the moves might be tricky, but I had all the time in the world to stand around and figure them out.

When it gets steeper that's a luxury you don't have any more. Onsighting pumpy - safe - things you have to learn to quickly see a sequence that should work and try it. And redpointing, you should already know the sequence but you have to know when it's time to stop pondering and just carry out The Plan.

Quote
I was more than happy to take a back seat Alan -
 helped you achieve your goals.

Much appreciated

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#26 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:00:55 pm
I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Aye, I know a lot of people who spend a good proportion of their precious crag time bemoaning the training injuries and fatigue that have kiboshed their plans to crush.  It would be a crying shame to spend the start of a holiday broken.  I'm hardly a role model for anyone, but I think my routine of no proper training regimen (doing whatever outdoor routes I can whenever possible, bouldering outdoors or indoors during the winter) but almost never being injured and ready to go for it every weekend/holiday has some compensations.  Coaching and highly specific training routines might well be the most efficient / rapid way to improve if done properly but at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice - always very reassuring to be certain that you are capable of any route crux you will encounter - and it's got to be less tedious than endless "aerocap" laps"!

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#27 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:13:25 pm
From what I recall from Torbryan last year Kelvin you weren't overly comfortable on the slightly overhanging ground (though willing to go for it!) Some unfamiliarity with steep ground technique but also running out of puff quite quickly (one probably exacerbates the other). I would go with the coaching idea, if nothing else book a session for the coach to look at you and identify your weaknesses. I did this 18 months ago and spent 2 hours going through indoor leading, bouldering, technique, strength, tactics etc which was revealing and threw up some things that I'd always thought were my strengths.

Other than that, I would split time between hard bouldering to build power/technique and indoor leading on long overhanging lines - as has been said this is what you're going to be facing in Spain.Otherwise you can go to Spain as a strong boulderer and get shut down 5 metres up every route... And outside climbing, exercises to keep your shoulders balanced against all the pulling down you'll be doing.

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#28 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:14:18 pm
 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   


Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.





Cheers fella - I actually thought this was a pretty good anaerobic capacity performance for someone of my level? Going by the Barrows pdf. I'd have said aerocap was by far my weaker of the two capacities but maybe I'm wrong? Dunno. Slightly confused by this.

I ran a 70 mile ultra a couple of years back, did an adventure race, spent a month in the Alps this summer and hit the welsh3000s in May as a norm, so my general fitness is not too shabby. 500 vertical metres and hour on swiss mountain paths.

Point taken about slowing down on the campus rail and I'll add in a few foot movements too.  :)

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#29 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:24:29 pm
Cheers Moose Chris and Muench - all taken on board.

You're right Chris, I was running out of puff really quickly back then but the aerocap seems to be sorting that. I was well out of my depth that day but really enjoyed it, if lacking in technique. Back on the ropes indoors now once a week, tackling roofs of late but will be moving on to the comp wall shortly.

Thanks everyone for the input.

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#30 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:37:26 pm
Yep - Sounds like your "outdoors" fitness is good to go :)

Definitely better then mine anyway. 

Re: ancap vs aerocap

My mistake just reread his pdf and I was confusing ancap with aeropow. 


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#31 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 06:40:41 pm
at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice

 :agree: Structured training isn't necessary at this stage. And not meaning to be offensive, but from your feats of strength/foot on campussing (sounds like bloody good ancap to me!), it sounds like you need to learn how to move efficiently - doesn't necessarily mean overt dropknee/kneebar trickery.

You'll get good at pulling by doing some steep/slightly overhanging bouldering/board stuff. Get to know the board/wall so you end up with some benchmarks and a reasonable spread of problem difficulty and hold types.
Be willing to spend a session on something, but contrary to others on here, I find that its better to try stuff where you can get a few moves linked after a bit of effort (~30 mins?), rather than trying and failing on one move all the time. But be analytical/pragmatic - e.g. make up problems which target certain things, and then tweak them as minutely as possible to get the intensity right to force improvement, and adjust as you get better. This should also get you better at using momentum, improve coordination, core etc.

If you want to mix it up after a month or two, do a period with some longer boulders/boulder reps. You can monitor the rest times on these if you want to monitor improvement, just try and reduce the rest till it seems too short, then make it harder.

Throw in some sessions occasionally where you just go and do a circuit of problems at the wall and/or some aerocap style stuff - lots of routes not at your limit will do. So maybe once a week of each (circuit and routing) for now, and more closer to the trip, with one more pumpy session a week before the trip.

Get out sport climbing when possible, especially closer to the time (or in summer if that's when you're likely to have time/conditions). Try and relax (i.e. let go till you almost fall off) and do volume - easiest way to 'get fit'.

Edit: a coach would be nice, but I reckon you will be fine without one with a bit of thought.

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#32 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 08:44:51 pm
When I first started climbing, having no car but living in a house with a sturdy kitchen door-frame and having a slightly obsessive nature meant that I rapidly gained strength to the point where most mornings, whilst making my cups of coffee, I was doing three batches in quick succession of 30+ pull-ups from the door-frame's first-joint edge.  Unfortunately, relative to such beasting, I couldn't climb for shit (except for a small number of lank-lover's problems I bouldered up to F6c, and route climbed around f6b).  I got a car, lost my job, and started to climb on real rock instead - a few years later I had eventually ticked off most of Caley and Almscliff's finest at F7b+-F7c.  On revisiting my beloved door-frame, I found that I couldn't do five pull-ups!  This led me to suspect that building physically isn't the only way of improving, substantial gains can be made by learning how to move in the manner that suits you best - essentially developing "knack". 

Similarly this last couple of years, I've got really into RPing routes on Yorkshire limestone.  Due to working commitments and general physical decrepitude, I reckon I'm weaker than I ever have been.  But, I'm improving pretty steadily never-the-less.  Mainly, I suspect, because of technical and tactical gains - I've become far less afraid of falling, can climb more smoothly, and have a better idea of how to pace my efforts - milking rests for all they're worth but then going absolutely all-out for crux sections, pausing as little as possible (by my standards, i.e. still very slowly by most people's) and having sufficient faith in bolts and belayer to commit to one more move, even when shaking and gasping. 

Essentially, what I'm trying to say, in a round about way, is that the OP shouldn't get too hung up on systematic training.  At least not at the expense of enjoyment or risking injury; unless you prefer such work-outs to a more free-form approach.  If not, just climb a lot.  Get used to pulling hard.  Get used to falling in the pursuit of one-more-move.  Get comfortable with your own capabilities.  Natural adaptation and habituation should hopefully allow you to achieve your goals.

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#33 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 09:55:52 pm


Essentially, what I'm trying to say, in a round about way, is that the OP shouldn't get too hung up on systematic training.  At least not at the expense of enjoyment or risking injury; unless you prefer such work-outs to a more free-form approach.  If not, just climb a lot.  Get used to pulling hard.  Get used to falling in the pursuit of one-more-move.  Get comfortable with your own capabilities.  Natural adaptation and habituation should hopefully allow you to achieve your goals.

Cheers for the encouragement Moose, nice to hear someone say they climb harder now they're weaker. Essentially, your last few sentences are why I'm heading off to Spain. I'll be honest and say I've never redpointed anything, it's a whole new skill I need to learn this summer before I go.

I had a pretty bad accident a few years back, broke the wrist/forearm in 26 places, was run over, reversed over blah blah and added to the rugby and football wear and tear - my knees are basically shagged. The right one has grade 3/4 damage and the left has scar tissue from two tears on the medial ligament. Physio's orders are to stay off the steep boards, she's a climber, and I understand why. I've ignored her the last two weeks, gone for it on the 30 and 45 and after a visit yesterday to sort a badly swollen medial and tight adductor due to working a V5 - it's hard to argue with her. I tore the medial dropkneeing on the roof a couple of years back. I end up on the campus rail because it doesn't give my knees any hassle :( and gains are easy to quantify but it's in no way as satisfying as holding a move on the 45 with a drop knee tho. Easy answer is Malcolm Smith's - "get strong face on" but when you're naturally as weak as me, that's real tough.

I'll happily risk the knees outside on rock but on plastic? That seems a waste somewhat and that's the reason I've ended up on the campus rails with my feet on. Cheers for taking the time to reply, I think we're pretty much in agreement as to what's best - just get on rock and climb. Till then, I'm trying to make the best use of the eight months I have left in Dry County (rockless Northamptonshire).

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#34 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:25:22 pm

 And not meaning to be offensive, but from your feats of strength/foot on campussing (sounds like bloody good ancap to me!), it sounds like you need to learn how to move efficiently - doesn't necessarily mean overt dropknee/kneebar trickery.


I surprised myself last night with the ancap but I am seriously weak in many areas - you may well be right that I don't move efficiently however and make the best use of what power/strength I have. Hard to analyse that myself tho and often mates when offering advice say "just pull..." and have no conception of the fact I can't  :shrug:

I explained to Moose why I stay off the steep boards as much as I can and the rest of what you suggest, I'm trying to put into practice as best I can. Always room for improvement tho. Thanks Ben, hope that the broken bones have healed well.

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#35 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:26:40 pm
at the grades the OP mentions, it feels like overkill to me, I can't help but feel a good volume of bouldering, at as hard a grade as mojo allows could suffice

 :agree: Structured training isn't necessary at this stage.

+1

Pre trip:
Go bouldering outside where you will need to get stronger to get up the problems

Do some sport climbing here and there as real rock climbs require skills beyond just pulling and it's good to be a bit in the groove

I'd talk to people with experience of long trips/limestone sports routes to think about how to approach your trip - personally I'd just get stuck in to routes you fancy, not too hard at first, but don't avoid the odd 'too-hard-for-me?' type route as you can always just lower off.

Get into onsighting out there-you'll improve plenty at this (but will fail lots too, it's part of the fun).

Accept you'll over and underperform at times.

Don't get injured.

Look after yiour skin, big priority that one if on sharp rock.

And have fun :)

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#36 Re: Focus - on what?
January 28, 2015, 10:33:50 pm



 personally I'd just get stuck in to routes you fancy

And have fun :)

At my grades - I get to follow natural lines  :yes: and this naturally increases my fun quota. Happy days.

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#37 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 10:19:17 am
I'm never going to come back being a good climber

Not with that attitude you won't!

You don't need to give it the full Jerry Moffatt but I found that a confident "there's no reason why I can't climb this" was vital to improvement. Focus on the things you have in common with the people climbing harder than you rather than your differences. I guarantee there are more.

Accept you'll over and underperform at times.

Possibly the best advice in this thread. Every climber has good and bad days, the trick is not to agonise about it and just carry on trying your best.

Also, ignore indoor grades.   ;D

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#38 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 01:30:44 pm


Also, ignore indoor grades.   ;D

Haha - Thankfully, everywhere is graded softer than Pinnacle. Visits to other places are good for the ego  ;D


Thanks everyone for all the input. I'll sit down later and really assess what everyone has suggested and how it applies to me but there is clearly plenty for me to work on before Spain.

Cheers!

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#39 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 01:46:54 pm


Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 


Just wanna clarify something here - when you say you pause on each hold for 4 sec, is that with the both hands on a rail whilst you move your feet? I had a play last night for a while on the bigger campus rail, one minute on and one minute off and trying to hover one hand where it needs to go for a few seconds before placing it and then hovering the other one. Blew me apart to be honest after the evening before and felt a lot harder than holding on with both and moving the feet twice. Honestly, if you two are moving your feet and holding on one handed...  :ohmy:


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#40 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:06:33 pm
I move my feet with both hands on.  For example, when I do foot on campusing for Aeropow, my goal is 1:30-2:00 minutes where I will start with both hands on 1, back step right foot, reach left hand to 3, step right foot through to back step, reach right hand to 4, move right and left foot, match left hand on 4, move both feet, right hand to 3, move both feet, left hand to 2, move both feet, right hand to 1, move both feet, match left hand to 1, move both feet and repeat leading with right hand to 3.  I'd say this usually ends up taking about 20 seconds in total for 7ish moves, so about 3 seconds a movement. 

I agree with Nai that 4 seconds is likely a better goal, so next time I get to that cycle, I may go down that road.  Right now I'm leaning towards bigger movement on bigger rungs instead though.  So instead of going 1-3-4-4-3-2-1-1 on the small rungs, i'll probably do 1-4-7-7-5-3-1-1.  I think the bigger movement will automatically slow me down more as I have to set up more for each move as well as building better body tension when the holds are further apart. 

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#41 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:41:06 pm
I found great benefits in doing the same - pausing 5 seconds on every move - with some benchmark problems that I have on my board and that I use for reference. I posted a vid somewhere here. The problems are 12 moves long so with the pauses and the feet moves it's a good workout.

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#42 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 07:49:16 pm
There you go. Boredom and bulging forearms in low quality.



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#43 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 08:22:15 pm


Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.
I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 


Just wanna clarify something here - when you say you pause on each hold for 4 sec, is that with the both hands on a rail whilst you move your feet? I had a play last night for a while on the bigger campus rail, one minute on and one minute off and trying to hover one hand where it needs to go for a few seconds before placing it and then hovering the other one. Blew me apart to be honest after the evening before and felt a lot harder than holding on with both and moving the feet twice. Honestly, if you two are moving your feet and holding on one handed...  :ohmy:

I start matched on 5 for 4s, then 5-4-3-2-1-1-3-5-5 (like to finish moving upwards), keeping both hands in contact between movements, feet only move as necessary to reach the rungs, this is an exercise for the forearms. Set length depends on my goal route but generally 25 reps or 10o seconds.

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#44 Re: Focus - on what?
January 29, 2015, 10:19:07 pm
Cheers lads - I'll have a play around this weekend and see what feels right, I guess aiming for 3 sec to start with. My initial thoughts last night were that moving my feet about detracted from the forearms but that might be me subconciously making excuses. Interesting idea about finishing upwards...

Boredom

Nibs, when I first started lurking on UKB, I had a look at a few of your vids and wondered how anyone could enjoy such a thing - funny how my opinion has changed. Appreciate the effort linking them, sometimes the visual puts the point across better. Cheers.

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#45 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 05:29:02 pm
Quick update

Thanks to everyone who offered advice, it was all gladly received and I'm busy applying much of what was suggested.

The coach thing cropped up a lot in the suggestions, way more than anything else and whilst I felt initially that it was a bit overkill for someone at punter level like me - I booked a couple of three hour, one to one sessions for earlier this week. It proved illuminating. I can honestly say that I could have climbed for another three years and not learnt of or discovered or seen the significance of some of the movement skills I was utterly unaware of, things I'm fully capable of even without that handful of talent that some are blessed with. Some I would even have discounted had I stumbled upon them as contrived or awkward. Also - BREATH! I had no idea that I held my breath all the time. No oxygen, no go. Literally.

I also realised that the things I have worked at and trained, like my footwork, are not too shoddy at all - so it's a matter of just tweaking lots of small things and putting in the hours to achieve a pretty decent gain. And even though I'm weak... I'm probably strong enough for my goals already.

By the time the fuel, hostel, wall admission and two sessions are added up, I could easily have had a decent trip to Spain but at the moment, the monies invested in the coaching seem like pounds well spent and will bring gains for years. Thanks everyone.

 :)

I went to see John Kettle up in Kendal in case anyone is wondering, not local at five hours each way for me but he did come recommended for movement skills. All the physical training shizzle I reckon I've sorted from you lot  ;)








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#46 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 06:07:47 pm

BREATH! I had no idea that I held my breath all the time. No oxygen, no go. Literally.


Just when you learn about breathing someone comes along and complicates with different types and ways to practice it:

https://www.trainingbeta.com/justen-sjong-breathing/

Apologies if you have already seen this.


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#47 Re: Focus - on what?
February 27, 2015, 06:21:58 pm

2 Tru

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#48 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 10:29:26 am
Kelvin,

I climb at big rock Milton Keynes at a similar grade with similar training goals. Let me know if you need a training partner / belay next time you are heading down there. 

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#49 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 11:02:51 am
Kelvin what were the movements etc that you were missing? Be interesting to know

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#50 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 11:07:30 am
I've just got back from my first european sport trip and two things that really stood out to me were i) confidence and familiarity with the rock and ii) route reading.

i) Confidence. The rock in Chulilla was limestone and I haven't done much UK lime, mainly grit, so I found it hard to see which holds were good/bad, to the point where sometimes I would just have to to suck it and see as I couldn't judge the holds in advance. This meant that I lacked the confidence to commit/just go for it before I got used to the rock
.
Also, falling. I mainly climb trad, so when I'm soloing or on a long run out I don't really mind (I'm in a different headspace), but the prospect of falling and certainly being likely to fall still scares me. Practice falls are certainly a good way to address this. But, for me, when I encountered new rock is Spain, I was again nervous because of the unknown quantity.

From the above two points I would therefore recommend spending your first day/s out there getting used the rock and, in particular, taking practice falls. I think that getting comfortable with these things will pay dividends.

ii) Route reading. As I found it hard to see which holds were good, I found it difficult to read a good sequence from the ground/a rest. Fortunately, although this may be different where you're going due to the angle at the rock, at the grade I was climbing (up to 7b) there were sufficient rests which facilitate reading the routes at intervals.

I think that the above two problems can be addressed with one action: get on some rock that is as similar as possible to the rock you'll find in Spain. Practice lots of onsighting for route-reading on the fly type skills, and redpoint sequences you can't immediately read so you can work out the movement/skills required on that type of rock. Also, take loads of practice falls, and then take some more - getting this confidence will help you no end.

Hopefully these actions will help a lot and won't expose you to injury!

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#51 Re: Focus - on what?
March 03, 2015, 01:57:39 pm
Also, on warm-ups: try to increase the speed. Practice reading the rock quickly.

 

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