[kelvin]

I'm off to Spain in October for 6 months and obviously am trying my best to get into some sort of climbing shape before I go. I'm never going to come back being a good climber but I'd like to come home, knowing at least I gave myself a chance before I went but the more I learn about myself and training, the less sense any of it makes  Sorry for what may be a longish post.

I don't climb hard by any standards, I started last year feeling strong (I was lighter by 6kg than now) and flashed three indoor V4s, onsighted a french 6b (don't really do sports outdoors) and have ticked some E1s but usually soft runout things. There's no consistency however, on good days I'll waltz up E3/2 on second (I've tried leading them too) and the bad days are just bad. Managed a 6A and a 6A+ in font, both in a couple of goes each, ticked a few 6As on grit quickly and generally if I can do something, I do it within a go or two. I feel my ability to see moves is pretty good, footwork is neat and less passive than it was but I just have no pull at all. Basically, the 'just go climbing' advice people offer hasn't worked for me at all. I have a couple of weeks off due to injury or work and I'm back to square one. I hate climbing inside anyway, hence I view it as training to help me cope...

Training. A couple of years ago, I was struggling with getting pumped after about 8m at the local wall and had a session with Alex Fry, who said my footwork was fine but I was lacking in power endurance and gave me some foot on stuff to do, to improve it. I got stronger at shorter stuff, better at stuff I could already do but the pump got worse if anything. Looking back, I threw myself into that and forgot about all the aerocap I was doing before. To quote Alex Barrows pdf "increasing your anaerobic capacity thus increases your ability to produce lactate, meaning that it is essential to do sufficient aerobic capacity work whilst working on this energy system (and aerobic power work afterwards), or your body won’t be able to cope with this new ability and you’ll quickly find yourself very, very pumped. This is a rare example of ‘more is not always better’". I do feel due to my work, that I have a good ability to produce lactate anyway in my arms but when climbing I struggled to use this. I was getting horrendous flash pump that would basically end the day, sometimes resulting in bruising. Pretty disheartening.

So back in Dec, I set about aerocap again - 10 problems up to V2 (6/7min) then 6min rest, 10 sets of this. 20min of continuous climbing but staying away from the steep boards as I have a few knee issues when drop kneeing. Also toproping routes up to 6a, up to 10 times with no rests or 4x4s. Having (due to the pump issues) only managed one 6b at Pinnacle, I'm not miles from my limit on these. The flash pump hasn't occurred for a couple of months now. I'll keep on top of this as boulder sets allow or head to Big Rock to use the auto belay.

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.
Fingerboard - hardly been on these of late but fitting a Crusher rail at home today. I have strong middle fingers and everything else is weak. Can hang the upper monos but on the bottom rail, I can just about hang the 4 finger slots for a few seconds at best.
Pullups - I've seriously tried at various times to improve at these. I think I lack the signals in my brain to activate the muscles needed. I can manage three at best after a warm up. I managed five once, early last year. I can however manage two using the upper BM mono slots using my middle fingers. Go figure?!
Hanging one armed - has to be four fingers, has to be a jug, can't manage it using the big BM slot and trying it on say the middle sized campus rail is just laughable. A shoulder stability issue?

I've come to the conclusion, that the main thing holding me back is not fingers nor footwork but just shoulder and arm strength. If I can manage last nights ancap session and mono pullups, my fingers must be okay but I just can't pull in or up, certainly if there's no option to use but one arm only. I've asked everyone, I climb with some decent lads too but they all seem as confused as me as to why I can't climb harder. I spent most of last year working my weaknesses - slopers, jamming, being more dynamic but laybacks still stop me dead. I don't feel strong enough to apply the right technique.

Am I missing something obvious? Do I just need to add deadlifts to what I'm doing?

Any advice will be well received. I just wanna make the best use of the 8 months or so I have left.

[James Malloch]

Nothing to do with training as such, but just being psyched and climbing lots will put you in good stead! Someone I know went from climbing 6b+ to 7c after spending 3 months in El Chorro.

After 6 months you could have huge gains!

[kelvin]

just being psyched and climbing lots will put you in good stead

Basically the reason I'm heading off into the winter sun.

[SA Chris]

I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Maybe some free weights for shoulders and back? See no mention of any core work either.

[Nibile]

As said, your climbing form will grow by climbing loads in Spain.
You have to figure out which kind of routes you're going to climb mostly, though. Short and bouldery or staminafests?
8 months are a long time and I would seriously consider investing some money in a professionally developed long term training plan.
Other than this, I strongly advise you to set some benchmark problems and routes that can be used as parameters for your progress.
Then you'll be sure that you're moving in the right direction. Don't get too stressed about the details too soon.

[nai]

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.

Regarding your current situation, if I was you and had come to the same conclusion I'd probably go bouldering a lot and lift some weights to start with but if I really wanted to know my weaknesses and make sure I get the best out of the trip I'd probably hire a coach who could identify them and draw up a six month plan that will ensure I arrive in decent nick and with a strategy to stay at peak for the duration.

[kelvin]

I'd focus on not overdoing it training and injuring yourself.

Maybe some free weights for shoulders and back? See no mention of any core work either.

I should have mentioned - I go to yoga once a week for an hour and also have planned 15 minute workouts (from a PT mate) that focus on the core and upping the metabolism. Mountain climbers, wideouts etc. Flexibility (hamstrings especially) is an issue but had a chat with the physio yesterday and have a load of stretches to add to the workload. I'm injury prone to be honest, mostly due to my own stupidity but I'm learning.

[kelvin]

To nai and nibs

Cheers for the replies - I've considered getting a proper plan from a coach but to be honest, it feels a bit daft when I climb the sort of grades I do, I'm not exactly going to set Tom Randall's lattice board on fire. So I've been following Barrow's plan to a degree and trying to address issues/problems as they come up. Maybe I should reconsider this but who to ask? Northampton isn't exactly climbing central

nai - last night's foot on campussing was a bit uplanned, as I'd been to the physio that day with an unhappy medial ligament and addductor and no climbing was advised for a few days. I felt at the time that a move a second was way too quick but I'd not been on the smallest rails before and wanted to get some sort of benchmark, much as nibs advised. I did way more than I expected and next time, I'll follow your advice.

[r-man]

Pullups - I've seriously tried at various times to improve at these. I think I lack the signals in my brain to activate the muscles needed. I can manage three at best after a warm up. I managed five once, early last year. I can however manage two using the upper BM mono slots using my middle fingers. Go figure?!
Hanging one armed - has to be four fingers, has to be a jug, can't manage it using the big BM slot and trying it on say the middle sized campus rail is just laughable. A shoulder stability issue?

I've come to the conclusion, that the main thing holding me back is not fingers nor footwork but just shoulder and arm strength.

It sounds like you are trying to improve shoulder/arm strength by doing pullups on a fingerboard? If you have weak arms, the easiest way to improve them is to do pullups on a pullup bar.

I used to struggle with lock offs (could barely lock off one-armed on a bar, or at 90deg, nevermind lock offs on rock) but working them on a bar made a big difference. I used a bike inner tube (attached to bar) with one hand and with the hand holding the bar I did lock offs at slightly bent, 90 deg. and full lock. I only did 6 reps each session (two of each angle) for about 7 sec. Progressed to not needing the inner tube, then doing the same exercises on a fingerboard.

Might be something you could try? Doesn't take much time per session.

[Nibile]

Oh, by the way...
The Italian doctor who made the campusboarding and fingerboarding mistakes videos, has a very good advice: do not do pull ups on a fingerboard. The high stress imposed to tendons and joints, teamed with the pronated prehension and the elbow flexion, build a very dangerous ensemble.
I haven't done pull ups on a fingerboard in ages and never noticed the lack of them.

[kelvin]

It sounds like you are trying to improve shoulder/arm strength by doing pullups on a fingerboard? If you have weak arms, the easiest way to improve them is to do pullups on a pullup bar.

I thought a fingerboard would have been more relevant but having never used a pullup bar, I don't know any different. We don't have one at the wall. I literally don't have one door frame that's suitable for most of the bars on offer, the expanding ones I've discounted as heard far too many horror stories. I'll see if I can rig something up over the fingerboard. Cheers r-man.

Nibs - do you have a link to that video please? can't say I've seen it. Mono slot pullups are the only party trick I have in my arsenal when it comes to climbing... please don't take my monos away 

[Schnell]

I've considered getting a proper plan from a coach but to be honest, it feels a bit daft when I climb the sort of grades I do, I'm not exactly going to set Tom Randall's lattice board on fire. So I've been following Barrow's plan to a degree and trying to address issues/problems as they come up. Maybe I should reconsider this but who to ask? Northampton isn't exactly climbing central

I'd get a coach, life's too short to worry about being embarrassed about these things. It's obviously important to you or otherwise you wouldn't be on here writing about it. We're all relatively shit compared to the top end of climbing anyway (not very accurate considering its UKB but the point is valid).

[John Gillott]

Oh, by the way...
The Italian doctor who made the campusboarding and fingerboarding mistakes videos, has a very good advice: do not do pull ups on a fingerboard. The high stress imposed to tendons and joints, teamed with the pronated prehension and the elbow flexion, build a very dangerous ensemble.
I haven't done pull ups on a fingerboard in ages and never noticed the lack of them.

Good advice, esp if the fingerboard in question isn't a wide one. I used to have a Metolius up at home which is nice and long. Pull ups on the jugs on that never gave me any problems. However, I only have a Beastmaker now and I quickly learned that my elbows didn't like pullups using that.

So, either get a bar or make two nice jugs and position them a good distance apart for wide pullups. Or, stop doing pullups at home.

[Schnell]

In response to your problems with pull ups and general upper body strength, I'd say you should investigate your shoulder stability. I was diagnosed with a weak back and poor scapular stability a few months ago as being major contributing factors to endless finger injuries. I'm just starting to address it but it seems to be making a difference to overall pulling strength and to my technique as well weirdly.

[thekettle]

I'll second the motion to get a coach, but I'd suggest they focus on your nonphysical attributes - technique (not just footwork), tactics, pace, and psychological elements.
A history of injuries at your grades suggests you may be making you current performances a lot more strenuous than they actually need to be. There may be some fundamental inefficiencies/instabilities with the way you move or your posture, which getting stronger fingers/arms/shoulders won't make any difference to. Some habits may need unlearning, this is a great time to do it!
Don't feel you're 'not good enough' to book coaching - the worse you are, the more you'll benefit!
Have an ace time in Spain   

[Rocksteady]

generally if I can do something, I do it within a go or two.

Agree about coaching in your circumstances btw.

I also wonder if stopping focusing on 'doing' problems will help you. How often do you try problems or routes that are way outside your perceived level?

Don't worry about finishing the problem, just worry about doing the move. After a while you'll be able to do the move. Then spend time focusing on linking into the next move.

Improved technique, finger strength, contact strength and 'pulling power' all in one exercise. But don't do it for too long at a time - I combusted my shoulder quite badly by sticking at the board sessions for week after week. Stick at it until the gains start to taper off. And go away and do a bunch of volume with your new turbocharged fingers.

I do think bumping up your strength and power will pay dividends. You can build endurance when you're out on your trip.

[Muenchener]

If I might offer an observation based on our brief (but pleasant) experience of climbing together: you seemed quite happy to stay within your comfort zone: nice slabby slate, seconding/belaying. I appreciate that factors applied that might not apply to a regular climbing partnership - being polite to a visitor, not pushing the boat out with a belayer of unknown competence, etc. - but if it is a general pattern then that could be a large part of the problem.

(don't really do sports outdoors)

But that is exactly what you are going to Spain to do, so you'd better start doing some. You won't be doing many slabby runout trad climbs (unless you plan to visit La Pedriza) so you'll be outside your current comfort zone an awful lot of the time. Your comfort zone needs shifting. Simply making a point of getting on a few more steeper, butcher - but safely bolted - sport climbs might be the way forward.

Your self-diagnosis of your physical limitations may well be accurate, but physical factors aren't always the main or real issue.

Basically, the 'just go climbing' advice people offer hasn't worked for me at all

Sorry if this falls into that category.

[SA Chris]

the expanding ones I've discounted as heard far too many horror stories.

The expanding ones are supposed to be used with two small  cups bolted to the doorframe to support it. I believe most horror stories are from people using it without the cups and relying on the expansion alone as support. I've got one with the cups screwed in place, and am quite happy to put my 14st weight on it. If you need to remove the cups there are just 3 small screwholes left in the wood, easily hidden with a bit of filler. 

[jwi]

If you are good at roped climbing indoors you'd do well sport climbing in Spain. It is more or less exactly the same thing

6 months of climbing is a lot to ask of the body. Without knowing you, from what you write you seem to have weak shoulders and an underdeveloped posterior sling.

A good base is everything. You seem to have improved your climbing base by increasing volume. This is a good idea. You can let this phase last for 2 months more at least.  The increased efficiency you get from doing lots of moves could even improve your bouldering.

For preventing injuries I think you should ad a strength training program for at least 2 times a week for 5-6 months.

Same again here: Start by building a base for at least 2 months. In the base phase, do 10 (3) reps for 3-5 sets. For the strength phase decrease to ultimately around 4(1) reps for 4-5 sets.

I have written this program for my better half (she is at about your physical level but redpoints 8a on vertical ground, whenever she by some miracle hasn't been injured for the last 2 months):

2times a week:
With sling-trainer hanging from a pull up bar: (I made mine from a piece of rope laying around)
1) Standing row
2) Biceps row

with dumbell:
3) Dumbbell lying row

Body-weight:
4) Push-ups (with weight-west as you progress)
5) Pullups. Not more than what you can easily to for 3-5 sets with *perfect* form at 2s-2s cadence. This is probably 1 pull up at your current strength.

2 times a week: core training on the swiss ball.

[kelvin]

Wow! Thanks everyone.

Seems people think that getting a coach and a plan is the way forward, even at my level. I'll look into it.

And sort the pullup thing too - SA Chris, I've not seen them with cups before and seeing as I'm a decorator... no excuse not to.

I also wonder if stopping focusing on 'doing' problems will help you. How often do you try problems or routes that are way outside your perceived level?

I do think this was a bit of an issue, there's certainly been a fear of failure (maybe down to the fact I was scrambling and soloing long before being a climber and falling wasn't an option) and Muenchener clearly picked up on the fact I can be quite content playing the supporting role for other people. I did throw myself at stuff last year tho, took maybe 30 leader falls at trad, even a leader fall in winter, tried leading Eng 6a - yeah I'd say you would have been right not long ago but I've made some progress lately. It just feels that when I try harder stuff - I'm too weak physically.

And I hate the fact I have to say that, because saying I need to be stronger is such a bloody cop out but when you can see what to do and know how to do it but can't, what else is there left?

[kelvin]

Simply making a point of getting on a few more steeper, butcher - but safely bolted - sport climbs might be the way forward.

Yep. Totally correct and it will be Peak limestone sport all summer.

I was more than happy to take a back seat Alan - you were only over for a few days, I had all year to get stuff done in the UK. I was actually down in Portland a week or two ago on steep stuff with someone I didn't know and happily falling off, I rarely worry about belaying - at the time, I'd have rather helped you achieve your goals.

[kelvin]

If you are good at roped climbing indoors you'd do well sport climbing in Spain. It is more or less exactly the same thing

6 months of climbing is a lot to ask of the body. Without knowing you, from what you write you seem to have weak shoulders and an underdeveloped posterior sling.

A good base is everything. You seem to have improved your climbing base by increasing volume. This is a good idea. You can let this phase last for 2 months more at least.  The increased efficiency you get from doing lots of moves could even improve your bouldering.

For preventing injuries I think you should ad a strength training program for at least 2 times a week for 5-6 months.

Same again here: Start by building a base for at least 2 months. In the base phase, do 10 (3) reps for 3-5 sets. For the strength phase decrease to ultimately around 4(1) reps for 4-5 sets.

I have written this program for my better half (she is at about your physical level but redpoints 8a on vertical ground, whenever she by some miracle hasn't been injured for the last 2 months):

2times a week:
With sling-trainer hanging from a pull up bar: (I made mine from a piece of rope laying around)
1) Standing row
2) Biceps row

with dumbell:
3) Dumbbell lying row

Body-weight:
4) Push-ups (with weight-west as you progress)
5) Pullups. Not more than what you can easily to for 3-5 sets with *perfect* form at 2s-2s cadence. This is probably 1 pull up at your current strength.

2 times a week: core training on the swiss ball.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, although I'm sure your lady has far better technique than me. (I actually don't climb ropes indoors much at all and I only had four days on limestone sport last year but really enjoyed the climbing when I wasn't flash pumped out of my skull.)

I'll google posterior sling later this evening. Aerocap on the campus rail and the fingerboard at home to sort yet.

[Sasquatch]

So i'll go in a bit of a different direction.  You'll be in spain for 6 months.  You will naturally develop endurance and technique applicable to the area once you're there as long as you're geting out enough.  What you have 8 months to do is get your body and fingers a striong and bomb proff as possible. 

I'd say you should look at some overall body strength work, and as mentioned by Meunchener, you're going to be doing a fair bit of sport outside.  Get used to doing more outside in general.  walking, hiking, etc. outside now and being used to being outside and active 5-6 days a week now will all make a big difference while you're there. 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.

I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 

[nai]

So i'll go in a bit of a different direction.  You'll be in spain for 6 months.  You will naturally develop endurance and technique applicable to the area once you're there as long as you're geting out enough.  What you have 8 months to do is get your body and fingers a striong and bomb proff as possible. 

I'd say you should look at some overall body strength work, and as mentioned by Meunchener, you're going to be doing a fair bit of sport outside.  Get used to doing more outside in general.  walking, hiking, etc. outside now and being used to being outside and active 5-6 days a week now will all make a big difference while you're there. 

Second is to forget about endurance for a little bit.  Work your strength and power. Using Barrows example, you seem to lack anaerobic power, and I'd guess anaerobic capacity as well.   

Ancap - last night I got on the smallest campus rail, foot on. 25 hand movements (around 30sec), 90sec rest, repeat and managed 21 reps of this before a blister developed on my middle finger. Maybe could have managed two more reps, was slightly pumped but powering out was the issue towards the end.

Not really what you're asking but I find more gains from Foot-on-Campussing if I pause on each hold for 4s, on no climb anywhere are you going to make 25 hand moves in 30s, slowing down feels more relevant, it's harder but much more effective.

I do similar as 25 moves in 30s is just so unrealistic.  instead of pausing though, I make myself do two foot movements for every hand movement.  No time counting, but it seems much more realistic. 

I move my feet as well but I want to be able to measure progress so stick religiously to the timer, find it's tempting to speed up as the pump builds otherwise which might get you to the end of the set but maybe not having performed the same quality of work.

[Sasquatch]

Good Point.  Metronome here I come