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ARCing/Aerocap tips (Read 12787 times)

Rocksteady

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ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 11:04:02 am
I've been trying to improve my aerobic threshold by getting stuck into some of this training. I find the workouts hard to complete - not due to getting too tired, but due to boredom and pain in my feet/toes. I just start to feel I'm losing good form and technique on the nth lap of the same/similar route on an autobelay. And my toes start to really hurt and I worry I'm making them arthritisy.

Although I'm using my most comfortable shoes, I guess I need more supportive ones for sessions where I'm spending 20 min continuously climbing up and down. Funnily enough, I don't think my shoes hurt this much in a 20 min onsight just going up, but I'm not covering half so much ground as when lapping on an autobelay or traversing round and round.

A workout that is continuous and tiring that I do enjoy (and don't get the same toe pain from) is boulder 'sets' - where I boulder without/with minimal rests continuously for 20+ minutes. The question is, is this effective to improve my aerobic threshold or is it the act of continuously climbing without letting go that produces the adaptation?

Are there other more fun ways of increasing my aerobic threshold that I can try?

highrepute

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#1 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 11:53:03 am
I do 10 mins at start of session and 10 at end to break up the boredom.

Wood FT

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#2 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 11:54:45 am
Barrows listens to trance and pretends he's a rock god

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#3 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 11:55:57 am
Don't you wear pimpmaster ninjashoes?

Get yourself some katana velcros or similar with a flat last and a bit more support.

If you're traversing you could always bring your headphones and catch up on the Archers?

jwi

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#4 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 12:10:48 pm
As long as you get your volume in, and increase volume over time I wouldn't be too worried about details. Count the number of moves and try to increase that every week.

Paul B

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#5 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 12:49:37 pm
Barrows listens to trance and pretends he's a rock god

He's taken to standing on the floor beneath the campus board and lightly hanging off various holds for is ARCing.

As Dave pointed out, he could likely get the same effect by walking around holding two apples above his head for a few hours or so (and if he did, he wouldn't clutter up the board so often).

Wood FT

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#6 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 01:06:23 pm
Barrows listens to trance and pretends he's a rock god

He's taken to standing on the floor beneath the campus board and lightly hanging off various holds for is ARCing.

As Dave pointed out, he could likely get the same effect by walking around holding two apples above his head for a few hours or so (and if he did, he wouldn't clutter up the board so often).

jesus christ.

abarro81

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#7 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 27, 2015, 01:10:04 pm
Until Ben installs a vert warm-up wall, it'll have to do. The big board is ok for normal aerocap now though, especially if you throw a couple of extra jugs on whilst doing it. I don't think clutter is a big issue since there's only the same 5 people ever there in the evenings anyway!

Rocksteady - I don't think it's a problem to do it via back-to-back boulders, I just find that jumping off knackers my legs and back if I do it every 20s for 20min... As for the shoes - I find my feet also get sore if it's the end of a long session. Having some comfy punter shoes is one solution which I've used in the past.

blamo

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#8 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
January 28, 2015, 01:42:40 am

Are there other more fun ways of increasing my aerobic threshold that I can try?

You might try picking a few technique drills to do through the session.  For example, try to do as many heel hooks or flags as you can.  Some might be kind of forced, but it will help keep your mind off of your shoes being too small.

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#9 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:12:21 pm
More important for me - any tips on preventing/reducing/taking the mind off the pain from endless circuits when the skin bunches up from dragging on positive holds when doing volume for Aerocap?

This is predominantly what ends my sessions rather than being too tired/bored to continue.

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#10 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:19:39 pm
It's always pretty uncomfortable, but hold variety and pre-emptive taping should help. Or complain to the wall to get more nice holds...

Three Nine

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#11 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:24:00 pm
Having some comfy punter shoes is one solution which I've used in the past.

You mean a more comfy pair of massive floppy klown shoes.

jwi

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#12 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:36:18 pm
Skin is a trainable resource like everything else, but for people who predominantly boulders (indoors) I recommend climbing long circuits / high volume in thin garden gloves or the like. People will laugh but that's their problem.

addendum: Yeah, cut them so they become fingerless. The gloves, i.e.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:43:39 pm by jwi »

ali k

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#13 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:47:44 pm
Skin is a trainable resource like everything else

I've never found this to be true for the type of pain I get from skin bunching. For wearing out tips outdoors I agree with you that you build up a tolerance but even after weeks of volume stuff (with sufficient breaks in between) I can't do two days of Aerocap in a row without pain stopping play.

jwi

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#14 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
February 02, 2015, 02:51:24 pm
Climb with gloves then. It really helps for many.

Luke Owens

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#15 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 01:47:20 pm
I didn't want to start another Aerocap thread to ask a question and this is most recent I can find...

To actually increase aerobic threshold for climbing does it matter how specific the training is. I don't have time to go to the wall/anywhere to traverse lap routes and want to keep up the volume.

In work I've put rockrings (with the three pockets) over a pull up/tricep dip bar thing which has a foot platform about a foot behind the rock rings. I did 25 minutes of feet on the platform moving around the rock rings, going cross handed and shaking out on the jugs (This is extremely boring).

In terms of bloodflow and feeling in the forearms it felt identical to doing aerocap on routes/traverses. So are the benefits (excluding climbing technique) the same?

Cheers

Muenchener

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#16 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 02:33:45 pm
I did 25 minutes of feet on the platform moving around the rock rings, going cross handed and shaking out on the jugs (This is extremely boring).

You call that boring? Pah! I do up to 50 minute sessions of step-ups on a box with a big rucksack as approach training for alpine routes.

Getting the playlist dialed in is critical.

Three Nine

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#17 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 02:36:50 pm
If it feels the same then probably.

I didn't want to start another Aerocap thread to ask a question and this is most recent I can find...

To actually increase aerobic threshold for climbing does it matter how specific the training is. I don't have time to go to the wall/anywhere to traverse lap routes and want to keep up the volume.

In work I've put rockrings (with the three pockets) over a pull up/tricep dip bar thing which has a foot platform about a foot behind the rock rings. I did 25 minutes of feet on the platform moving around the rock rings, going cross handed and shaking out on the jugs (This is extremely boring).

In terms of bloodflow and feeling in the forearms it felt identical to doing aerocap on routes/traverses. So are the benefits (excluding climbing technique) the same?

Cheers

nai

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#18 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 02:38:15 pm
That's how I started, feet on a chair underneath a strip of wood above a door frame with rock rings hanging off a pullup bar, progressed to a fingerboard with a chair. 
I now have six med-large holds either side of my campus board which is 8x2ft and I go up and down that for 10 minutes at a time pausing on each hold for 5-10s and shaking out occasionally. It's dull but it's effective, not sure this type of training can be anything but.  Just get some tunes on and try to think of the bigger picture.
As has been mentioned before doing 10 minutes before and after a session is a good way of breaking up the monotony, if you can do that three times a week you'll probably see some gains.

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#19 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 03:31:07 pm
Barrows listens to trance and pretends he's a rock god


Is he an authentic one now?

Luke Owens

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#20 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 03:40:58 pm
Cheers guys, I have no problem withstanding the boredom as long as I know it's actually effective the way I'm doing it.

With it being a low intensity exercise making it possible to do it pretty much any time, is there any benefit in doing it say, 5 times a week instead of 3 for example? Or a more extreme example say 7 times a week instead of 3? Does it just become a poor use of time if done too many times a week?

Cheers

Paul B

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#21 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 04:36:00 pm
Until Ben installs a vert warm-up wall, it'll have to do. The big board is ok for normal aerocap now though, especially if you throw a couple of extra jugs on whilst doing it. I don't think clutter is a big issue since there's only the same 5 people ever there in the evenings anyway!

You moving stuff around is certainly more of an issue, but not one I'll have to put up with for much longer!

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#22 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 08:47:08 pm
I've not been there for 3.5 weeks. I don't move established holds either, just add my own holds. (with the exception of one of the blue warm up holds which I used to turn around, til I broke the t-nut, then I had to move it) No-one's complained to me :shrug: If there are a bunch of unfilled t-nuts I'm gonna use them.

Luke - I think that's fine, though climbing is better since it teaches you to climb obviously. If you're worried then just make sure that you're holding each hold for a length of time vaguely comparable to when climbing. With respect to volume, more is better from the point of view of getting fit. The more you do, the more it'll tire you out for strength work though, that's where a balance needs to be struck.

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#23 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 09:33:07 pm
Until Ben installs a vert warm-up wall, it'll have to do. The big board is ok for normal aerocap now though, especially if you throw a couple of extra jugs on whilst doing it. I don't think clutter is a big issue since there's only the same 5 people ever there in the evenings anyway!

You moving stuff around is certainly more of an issue, but not one I'll have to put up with for much longer!

You've got to put it in perspective Bennett; better fiddling with holds at an adults-only wall than fiddling with kids on the children's wall at the works as in years past.

Wood FT

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#24 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 13, 2015, 09:44:31 pm
Barrows listens to trance and pretends he's a rock god


Is he an authentic one now?

Rock Knob! Nah, not until his flashes fish eye

Luke Owens

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#25 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 16, 2015, 10:26:42 am
Luke - I think that's fine, though climbing is better since it teaches you to climb obviously. If you're worried then just make sure that you're holding each hold for a length of time vaguely comparable to when climbing. With respect to volume, more is better from the point of view of getting fit. The more you do, the more it'll tire you out for strength work though, that's where a balance needs to be struck.

Just seen this, thanks Alex. I've always done more strength stuff than fitness so I'm really unbalanced/unfit because of it (think running up short 7b's on redpoint by the skin of my teeth and getting pumped to hell on long ~6b's). I just need to dedicate a lot of time to the fitness side of things.

I dream of the day I can climb a route and not get that pumped and actually get something back on a jug...!

Something else that I find strange is some people I know that climb well and don't get as half as pumped as I do and think I'm speaking a different language if I mention aerocap. They have never done anything like it in their life. Does everyone have a different base level of fitness? I'm guessing people adapt differently to different types of training too.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 10:52:27 am by Luke Owens »

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#26 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 16, 2015, 11:02:34 am
Does everyone have a different base level of fitness? I'm guessing people adapt differently to different types of training too.

Yes, everyone is genetically different, unless your a monozygotic (identical) twin.

Heres an article to get you started...

Bouchard, Claude, and Tuomo Rankinen. "Individual differences in response to regular physical activity." Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 33 (2001): S446-51.

I think there is a mention of this in Steve Houses Training for the New Alpinism.

There are of course a lot more papers on it, but I'll leave you to sifting through some of the results.

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#27 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 17, 2015, 11:26:02 pm
Does everyone have a different base level of fitness? I'm guessing people adapt differently to different types of training too.
Bouchard, Claude, and Tuomo Rankinen. "Individual differences in response to regular physical activity." Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 33 (2001): S446-51.

I'm not disagreeing with your point,but this paper looks at mainly VO2 max and heart rate; neither of which i can see having a massive bearing on redpointing. I wonder whether most climbers will have reached a physical level to begin to nudge at the boudaries of their genetic potential, and i suspect that a lot of training adaptationis down to waht people enjoy.  People who like getting pumped vs those who enjoy spending hours trying to one arm a slopy edge

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#28 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 18, 2015, 07:48:54 am
I've always believed that people differ hugely in their untrained levels of vascularity, which is a huge component of aerobic fitness for climbing.

In other words some people are "naturally fit". I believe this without any supports evidence.

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#29 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 18, 2015, 08:27:16 am
That is absolutely true. Young kids can dangle forever from a bar and not get pumped, because of the different vascularity and circulation.
Also, muscles play a big role in this: the bigger they are, the worse the pump, especially in the forearms, because of the vessels compression.
I still want big muscles though, and one arming slopey edges.

Three Nine

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#30 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 18, 2015, 10:28:29 am
I've always believed that people differ hugely in their untrained levels of vascularity, which is a huge component of aerobic fitness for climbing.

In other words some people are "naturally fit". I believe this without any supports evidence.

Well obviously, just like some are naturally strong

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#31 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 18, 2015, 11:10:42 am
Something else that I find strange is some people I know that climb well and don't get as half as pumped as I do and think I'm speaking a different language if I mention aerocap. They have never done anything like it in their life.
I bet they have - I bet they'll have done a shit-load of trad-climbing. AKA ledge-shuffling AKA arc training. A few years of this provides a solid foundation for being able to rest up a lot of stuff without entering anerobic zone - watch a good solid E5 trad climber (not someone pushing their grade) who gets out on the rock lots, on anything vertical to slightly overhanging and you'll know what I mean.

Does everyone have a different base level of fitness? I'm guessing people adapt differently to different types of training too.

(I think..) Everybody differs in their natural ability to run 100, 1000 and 10000 metres (the 1st two anerobic, the 3rd aerobic), as well as differing in their natural ability to leg-press and hamstring curl with weight. Most people sit in (grade)bands of similarity with relatively few outliers at each end.

Climbing is running (aero or ano) with your forearms, or hamstring curls with your fingers. Except it's mostly isometric contractions instead of lengthening/shortening of muscles. Usually a combo of aero/ano/strength with one emphasized over the other depending on the style of route.
edit - actually, it's like running with your legs fixed at a slightly bent angle and bouncing along..

Once you start training aerobic or anerobic fitness, or strength, everyone's body differs in its response to the same training. Again with people pigeon-holing into bands of similarity of response with relatively few extreme outliers.


All my opinion based on reading but no sauce.


Unless you're genetically screwed-over (unlikely) in the department responsible for your body's response to good quality ano/aero training there's no physical reason why you can't become a fitness wad.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:20:59 am by petejh »

Luke Owens

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#32 Re: ARCing/Aerocap tips
April 19, 2015, 01:12:02 am

I bet they have - I bet they'll have done a shit-load of trad-climbing. AKA ledge-shuffling AKA arc training. A few years of this provides a solid foundation for being able to rest up a lot of stuff without entering anerobic zone - watch a good solid E5 trad climber (not someone pushing their grade) who gets out on the rock lots, on anything vertical to slightly overhanging and you'll know what I mean.

Ally keeps saying this to me too. That because I never did any trad I've never really got the mileage in. I started my climbing career redpointing at Dinbren...

I've spent the last couple of weeks getting pumped doing mileage on the Hornby Crags, I'm convincing myself this will help me.

(I think..) Everybody differs in their natural ability to run 100, 1000 and 10000 metres (the 1st two anerobic, the 3rd aerobic), as well as differing in their natural ability to leg-press and hamstring curl with weight. Most people sit in (grade)bands of similarity with relatively few outliers at each end.

Climbing is running (aero or ano) with your forearms, or hamstring curls with your fingers. Except it's mostly isometric contractions instead of lengthening/shortening of muscles. Usually a combo of aero/ano/strength with one emphasized over the other depending on the style of route.
edit - actually, it's like running with your legs fixed at a slightly bent angle and bouncing along..

Once you start training aerobic or anerobic fitness, or strength, everyone's body differs in its response to the same training. Again with people pigeon-holing into bands of similarity of response with relatively few extreme outliers.


All my opinion based on reading but no sauce.


This is interesting, I used to do a lot of running before I climbing specifically running 10k races. My Dad (who is a brilliant runner) always used to tell me to train by staying just below my anerobic threshold; and the long stints of this would increase my aerobic capacity and stop me going anaerobic as quick. I must admit I did loads of it and my times kept coming down, I was able to run faster without crossing my threshold. I guess it's roughly the same for climbing.


Unless you're genetically screwed-over (unlikely) in the department responsible for your body's response to good quality ano/aero training there's no physical reason why you can't become a fitness wad.

I hope this is true, I'm heading to Ceuse again in September and I don't want to get shutdown!

 

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