[Nibile]

Didn't want to pollute the Sharkathon thread, so I started this one to share my experience.
I've noticed a good improvement in my form since starting doing "finishers" after each session and on rest days also.
For the concept of "finisher" you can relate to this entry of my blog http://totolore.blogspot.it/2014_07_01_archive.html or to T-Nation.

I've chosen and tested a few excercises that I combine in various ways to give a good kick in the ass after each different session I've had, and possibly according to the following day's session.
I still can't sprint. So here are the excercises I do:
- spider crawl, +6kg, bouts of 2 minutes; very very hard;
- ab-roll, +6kg, with 5 seconds pause at full extension, 6/7 reps; very hard;
- one arm kettlebell swings, 10kg, 2x20 per arm; not so hard;
- clean and jerk from knees, 40kg, amrap; very very hard;
- weight complex with 9kg dumbbells: lateral raises x10; biceps curl x15/20; military press x15; triceps extension (with 9kg) amrap; lat pulls with 40kg barbell 15/20. The complex is very very hard.

Usually I do one or two of these, trying to reduce rests to the minimum, but I need to catch some breath because they are exhausting.

Combining these ones I usually am done in 6/10 minutes.
I honestly suggest finishers to anyone who wants to keep muscles, do some intense effort and reduce fat.
HTH.



 

[the_dom]

If you have access to a rowing machine, I can recommend a very simple and exceedingly painful finisher - row all out for 30 seconds (remember the distance you rowed), rest 30 seconds; repeat 9 times.

Aim to match the distance from the first set every time, then have a little lie down / vomit afterwards. The beauty of it is that no matter how fit you are, you will find a pace that will hurt you.

[Tommy]

Finishers are a great tool - although a lot of climbers (the type that are constantly on the verge of overtraining!) should be careful which part of their season they put this into and how heavy the week is already for training.

Another great thing about these, in my opinion, is that they improve your mental robustness. It's hard making yourself really hurt on a regular basis, but you'll probably come out with a stronger psyche.

Nice one Nibs. 

[Three Nine]

So is the idea just to fuck yourself for your next session, so you then have a shit session and get pissed off, and so get used to being pissed off 

[Nibile]

No rowing machine, luckily. But I'd like to start using battling ropes when Spring comes.
And yes, finishers are also a mind-toughening tool.
Easy to feel cocky and start, hard to keep going and finish.

[the_dom]

Easy to feel cocky and start, hard to keep going and finish.

I find the opposite - I never, ever want to sit down at the rowing machine, but once I get started, I resign myself to finishing it.

[Nibile]

So is the idea just to fuck yourself for your next session, so you then have a shit session and get pissed off, and so get used to being pissed off 

To be honest the idea is to choose the finisher according to the session I've done and possibly to the session I'm going to have the next day, as I tried to explain in the first post.
The idea is also to look like The Thing and to become as strong as The Hulk, but more aggressive, so that I can crush problems on my board and - if need be - rip limbs off from annoying people.

[cheque]

So is the idea just to fuck yourself for your next session, so you then have a shit session and get pissed off, and so get used to being pissed off 

This is what I was going to put. It seems to contradict the concepts of finishing strong and warming down, both of which I've found essential for doing a useful quantity of climbing/ training.

To be honest the idea is to choose the finisher according to the session I've done and possibly to the session I'm going to have the next day, as I tried to explain in the first post.

This sounds more applicable to the bodybuilding "legs day"/ "back day" style of training rather than one that allows you to go climbing.

[Tommy]

This sounds more applicable to the bodybuilding "legs day"/ "back day" style of training rather than one that allows you to go climbing.

Training - allows you to go climbing? Quite the opposite! You've probably read Nibs wrong and both at cross-purposes.

If you want something that allows you to go climbing, then walk away from the plastic, the wood & and the iron. Don't look back and get in that car :-)

[Nibile]

The problem of "fucking up the next session" is such only if you have just one type of session to do: like going to the wall and bouldering.
This is not my case and shouldn't be the case for anyone who wants to progress.
The bodybuilding split is easily attainable in climbing training as well, you just need some planning and a little bit of creativity.
I have at least two different fingerboarding sessions, various system training sessions, and various climbing sessions, targeting different aspects of climbing.
Doing a heavy finisher isn't going to affect my the following day's session, if you know what you're doing.
Of course, snatching heavy isn't a good idea if you're going to fingerboard the next day, because your fingers will be fatigued by the snatches, but a session of spinder crawls, ab-wheel and some specific weights will not only do no harm, but boost overall power.

Moreover, each session has its own potential, which is absolute for the session, and relative for the overall maximum potential that you have when at top.
So, when fully rested, you can train, let's say, at 100% and that 100% is your real absolute 100%.
The next day, tired, your potential is, for instance 75% of your real absolute max.
So, if you train at 75% you're giving your body the 100% stimulus that you're capable of in that session.
Each session has its max.
You can train at full intensity even without hitting your absolute 100%, but only your session's specific maximum.
If well carried on, this leads to overall progress, and to increasing also the absolute maximum.
So, it's not a matter of what you can do, but of the intensity of what you do.

I only wanted to share info and experience. I don't want to convince anyone to doing finishers: everyone is still free to be and look weak, I don't care about them.

[kelvin]

So, it's not a matter of what you can do, but of the intensity of what you do.

My old man was a decent pro-boxer and would fully agree with that Nibs.

A couple of years back, I wanted to run an ultra, despite dodgy knees that didn't allow much distance training. So I only did two 10 mile runs and one 17 miler before completing the 69 mile race. I ran pretty steadily till 50 miles or so when I stopped to help someone and fucked up my personal race. Work was full on at the time, so I trained when I could fit it in, lot's of hill sprints and 10ks but after chatting to a few people who trained like beasts (like my old man) I always did some relevant finishers. I started to loathe/love tabata squats at the end of a session. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the time I was sick doing finishers but it worked. I always had enough go for the next session and I finished a race I had no right to be able to - the body is great at recovering if you fuel it at the right times.

Still trying to work out what works for me when it comes to climbing but this last week, I've been battering myself with core work at lunchtimes which I'm hoping that I can use as finishers when I'm properly up to speed.

[Nibile]

Yes, exactly.
Even long distance runners train power and try to build a solid base of sprint!
Yesterday I was pretty knackered from the bouldering, so I chose this finisher:
- spider crawl +6kg x 2 minutes;
- Romanian deadlift, biceps curl and military press complex, 9kg dumbbells, x 2 minutes.
All repeated twice.
Shower, huge dinner, sleep like a baby.
Yay!

[Sasquatch]

It's a matter of the right heavy finishers for the right reason and in the right workouts. 

I'd argue quite strongly that very few climbers have a structured enough training plan to warrent adding heavy finishers in as:
1-they don't have a good enough gage for their workout intensity
2-haven't planned their workouts based around recovery
3-aren't consistent enough in their workouts.

In my local arena, I'd guess that I have a more structured plan than 90% of climbers, and here on UKB, probably more structured than 80%.  And I'd say I might be able to add heavy finishers in on select workouts, but not consistently without compromising my primary training goals.

[tomtom]

Don't a lot of route climbers do finishers? I used to - at the end of a wall session id go up and down as many steep routes as I could until my arms imploded...

[Nibile]

That is a useful excercise Tomtom, but not a finisher.
A finisher has to involve heavily as many muscles as possible, with a short, concentrated, high intensity effort. 6/10 minutes and you're done. Even less.

As far as structured training goes, my almost complete lack of outdoor climbing gives me the luxury of not needing to perform at selected moments, so I just go with the flow and do not plan anything for more than a week.

[creedence]

Would pull ups and push ups work as finishers?

Something like 60 secs of pull ups, 60 seconds of push ups, 50 secs of pull ups, 50 secs of push ups, etc down to 10 seconds.
That would give you 7 or 8 minutes that are vaguely climbing related.

[Nibile]

Yes, there are some examples of finishers that involve pull ups and push ups, but I prefer to do something that is not climbing related, but involves at the same time many big muscles.
This allows for a greater metabolic stress.
I do finishers to keep my muscles while controlling body fat.
Finishers are not a specific training, they are a way to keep or increase muscle while targeting body fat. They verge more on the side of the conditioning aspect.
Of course they have also a positive effect on the training. I noticed an improvement in muscle quality, more than in muscle mass - luckily.

[creedence]

OK, I get it.  Thanks Nibile.

[Nibile]

No probs Creedence.
Please take everything I type with a huge pinch of salt and for doubts refer to T-Nation!

[kelvin]

Do T-Nation recommend HUGE pinches of salt Nibs? I always thought a gram or two in orange juice was pretty diabolical but if needs must 

[Dexter]

So would a series of intense (eg cave) boulder problems count?
I generally finish my sessions by trying to do as many of the middleish (around v5-7) cave problems at the wall.
this generally leaves my upper body and core feeling ruined and heavily breathing.
Are these finisher? Or can I do them afterwards to get even more wrecked?

[dk]

Been doing a bodybuilding split - shoulders day, chest day, back day, legs day, arms day each week alongside climbing routes, bouldering and campusing for the last 6 months and have been having great results (The variation in training styles keeping me injury free). But the interesting part is HOW climbing feels after the different sessions - Training chest then climbing the same day (note not straight after) seems to make little difference, training shoulders leaves any sideways moves out the question, I train pull ups on back day so I don't climb then or just do endurance, surprisingly training biceps and triceps leaves me still pretty strong when climbing (Jerry Moffat talks about this in his book - it makes your lats work harder when your biceps are smashed), After training legs climbing feels really hard on what ever angle of wall and the next day I will feel my fingers (like I did when I first began climbing)!

Sure some days I climb badly but on these days I have to use different techniques and literally change my style to get up problems - It's good fun! - which has led me to become a much more rounded climber and then if I take a rest day and climb the day after I feel really strong and all is good

[dk]

O sorry forgot to say about finishers - In terms of climbing doing a load of pull ups at the end of each session or hanging till you can't hang anymore is likely to lead to some elbow problems, but if you do it at the end of one session each week and maybe add some weight or use smaller holds than normal, you will push your muscles harder and see improvements. Finishing complex's e.g. drop sets or pyramids  aren't designed to be used regularly on a muscle group. Bodybuilders who developed them would for example hit their biceps with them once a week then rest them for the rest/most of the week before they hit them again with the same intensity.     

NB; if you don't eat well (carbs and protein) afterwards you aren't going to make much gains from them or recover very quickly.

[Nibile]

Sorry dk, but I think you missed the point.
To my knowledge, a proper finisher isn't targeted to any specific muscle, so it's not a pyramid workout, or a drop set, or anything that is part of the workout. It's something that you do after the chosen workout is done, and again it's mostly aimed at keeping or building muscle, reducing body fat (the two things go hand in hand), rising metabolism, inducing a higher anabolic response from the body.
To do this, we need to do the "big" movements, and not target any specific muscle or movement.
Looking around, the most common finishers are things like the spider crawl, weights complexes (squat-curl-press), loaded carries of every imaginable fashion (farmer's walk, overhead walk), battling ropes, kettlebell swings, Turkish get-ups, and the likes. Efforts that will crush every muscle.
Hitting a muscle group hard isn't enough to produce the high metabolic stress that the finisher is aimed at.
We have to take the whole body, shake it like a properly made pina colada prepared by a topless barwoman on a beachside bar, and then nourish it like a newborn.
In my opinion, a finisher is not something that is part of the training, is something that enables you to train in a better way.

[Nibile]

Today's article! 
http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-for-strong-people
With a precious link to another article about finishers, this one.
http://www.t-nation.com/training/4-fire-breathing-finishers

[dk]

I hadn't come across finishers in that sense before sorry. The style you are talking about would be pretty useful though can defiantly see the benefit there. A combination of hanging core between Medium-hard boulder problems  could work well for climbing with no rest in between?

[creedence]

The whole additional concept of the 'fire breathing' finishers (learning to breath in a stressed state), sounds very applicable to sports climbing too.  I'm going to add the kettlebell swing and plank to the end of some core workouts, and see how it goes.

[Nibile]

I'm glad you liked it.

@dk,
don't stress too much about trying to build a climbing related finisher, I think it won't be a good finisher.
Think about stressing your whole body with big, compound movements that involve the big muscles.
The epitome of the finisher is, in my opinion, the uphill sprint. From stillness, to full body movement at max speed. That is going to give a high nervous and metabolic response!

Yesterday I tried this for the first time and it's great.

After that I did a weights complex, all for two times and was ready for bed.

[hamsforlegs]

I hadn't come across finishers in that sense before sorry. The style you are talking about would be pretty useful though can defiantly see the benefit there. A combination of hanging core between Medium-hard boulder problems  could work well for climbing with no rest in between?

Nibile may correct me, but I think it's pretty hard to generate enough wattage of output or enough engagement of major muscle groups (glutes, quads, abdominal wall) through climbing. Maybe some really aggressive dynos between huge jugs followed by a loaded exercise such as kettlebell swings or power cleans.

Worrying too much about climbing specificity is not necessary. The point is really to achieve a hormonal and metabolic effect - ie to put the body under some serious load and to generate some serious exertion. It's these effects that will help with muscle retention/development and fat reduction.

I used to use heavy finishers in workouts to maintain muscle when I was doing a lot of running. I used things like barbell complexes, uphill sprints, ball slams, sandbag getups and loaded carries. Loaded carries are superb. I was planning to reintroduce the idea but added to my climbing this spring.  Thanks Nibile for a timely discussion.

EDIT: saw this crossed over with Nibile's response, but looks like we're in agreement so I don't have to go into hiding.

[Nibile]

 
Perfectly exposed. Now I want to sell my house DaveMac style and go live in a hangar full of weights, sleds and chains. Oh and a Beastmaker.

[the_dom]

Perfectly exposed. Now I want to sell my house DaveMac style and go live in a hangar full of weights, sleds and chains. Oh and a Beastmaker.

And a rowing machine. I think they're even better than kettlebells are for finishers.

[Nibile]

More on the subject.
http://www.t-nation.com/training/4-anabolic-metcon-workouts

[Nibile]

There you go, managed to video one of my favourite finishers, to give the idea.
Warning: it's as boring to watch as hard to do.

[Nibile]

Still on the subject, I'm experimenting for you all.
The spider crawl was beginning to hurt a bit, especially shoulders and wrists, considering that I've added 1 kg to my weightvest.
So I thought "Why not taking it a bit easy by doing simple planks?"
Ahahahahahah how presumptuous of me!
Normal planks felt much much harder!
So I'm sacking the crawl in favour of the plank.
Two sets of 2 minutes, with 7 kg, left me completely smoked. On the second set, I could barely get to the first minute, then I had to pause on the ground every 20 seconds or so.
They're great because you have to breathe, and this involves an instability in the abs area, that is brutally hard to control!
Indeed, breathing is also a suggested technique to fight plateaus in deadhangs, squats and front levers.

[lagerstarfish]

I was chatting to a bloke at our Juice Clinic
(google sheffield juice clinic for info)

for one of his finishers, he does standing jumps as high as he can for 30 seconds at a time

[Nibile]

Those are cool as well and I used to do them before fucking my knee bouldering. Oh the irony.

Now I can't do them anymore because of the extreme knee flexion, so I went back to hill sprints so I could fuck my gluteus and score a new injury.

[Nibile]

I am still learning and experimenting for the progress of Mankind.
Yesterday I entered a world of pain with a Tabata dumbbells finisher after my BM session. It hurts. Highly advised, maybe it's best to prepare with 7/8 years of strength based training. 
Still cross related to the finishers' subject, on my last board session, that was aimed just at doing one project, after the warm up, general and specific on fingers, I tried to get some proper recruitment by doing some heavy compound movements and one single barbell complex at high intensity.
Big rest afterwards, success on the board.
Let's see if it's replicable. (Does such a word exist in English?)

[rodma]

Let's see if it's replicable. (Does such a word exist in English?)

yes and that's the correct word

[Nibile]

 

[Fiend]

I like doing a compound of deadlift into ?barbell raise? (not sure the term, lift the barbell to chest/neck height anyway) into shoulder press into overhead squat and reverse. One fluid movement or pausing at the chest. I do this with very light weights (25kg) and it feels pretty tiring after a set of 10 (I do 3 sets with rests in between). I imagine a few of these back to back would be rather good fun.

[siderunner]

Like the sound of that Fiend, I'm gonna try it. Though quite endurance-y at 3 x 10.

I suspect that's a bit lighter than what Nibs used to fire up his recruitment though ... right?

[Nibile]

I will remember Wednesday's session as one of heaviest sessions ever. I still have DOMS in my FOREARMS today... And I wanted to climb today... The Tabata set was really brutal and I had DOMS until yesterday, glutes and hamstring and abductors. Fantastic.
I have understood only recently how crucial speed is. It's another game. It didn't become obvious until, a few months ago, I tried to do some max speed one armers. Ahahahahahah what a humbling experience!
The equation Strength x Speed = Power is just what it is, an equation. More speed, more power.
So now I focus 80% of my weight training on speed and explosiveness, with some tweaks sometimes to make things harder, like paused reps, or a static hold at max effort, etc.

Fiend's routine seems more aimed at being a finisher, rather than a recruitment.
I will keep refining the recruitment sets before climbing, focusing on going heavy AND fast, trying to feel the optimum not to slide into grinding reps.
Doing a few hill sprints would be ideal but often it's not logistically possible.

I will stick to something along these lines:
some kind of jumps (high, broad, frog jumps);
a barbell complex (snatch, clean, power press);
a dumbbell complex (lateral raises, biceps hammer curl and overhead press with neutral grip).
One set of each at max speed with a good pause should see me sorted for crushing on my board.

[Fiend]

Yah mine is something I do at the end of a gym session, just cos I like it, but I do think it could work well as a finisher NIBZ style.

[Nibile]

Yah mine is something I do at the end of a gym session, just cos I like it, but I do think it could work well as a finisher NIBZ style.

Yes, I think so as well.
But to be used as a pre-climbing recruitment you should tweak it a bit, in my opinion.
The overhead squat is brilliant but it's not something you want to try doing at max speed.
The clean and power press is perfect though.
I'd go with one, max two sets of 7/8 at max speed.

[Nibile]

There you go, this is a good finisher that I like a lot. I think this is good tempo and number of reps for a finisher.
Today, before hill sprints, I did two sets of this, the second one being half the number of reps and higher speed. Sprints went well, it's amazing how good you feel when sprinting on a flat road after months of hill sprints.
Anyway here's the video, with the added bonus of the weather forecast for these coming days in Italy.

[Sasquatch]

I used to do something similar to those as part of a "warmup".  It was

6 sets of:
6 reps at 65# of:
   Deadlift
   Bent over rows
   Cleans
   Front Squat
   OH Press
   Back squat
and 6 pushups.


It never really felt like a warmup. Although after a bit of rest, I was certainly warmed up enough for anything else. 
If it was the main workout, it was done at 95# instead.  Those were brutal. 

[Fiend]

What weight is that, Nibble?

[Nibile]

It's 35 kilos so 77 pounds more or less. It's good for basically everything.

[Fiend]

Which is exactly what I guessed 

[Nibile]

 
I would like to add 2 kilos, gently building up a little bit without going too havy and still keeping speed.

[siderunner]

Great vid, thanks. Impressive with that weight!

I tried these with light weights (20kg) as a warmup to bouldering. Really good.

Also tried overhead squats - which I've never done before - and nearly ripped my arms out of the shoulder sockets :-( Guess I'm sticking to front squats until I can work that one out.

[Fiend]

OH squats I use a much wider grip, and a pretty light weight.

I tried a neat thing the other day after watching the old lady weight lifter at the local gym do it....

Start in a press-up position with wide legs, and each hand holding/resting on a dumbbell with the grips parallel to your body. Keeping the hips straight, alternate rows on each arm until it all becomes too much (or do 5 on one side 5 on the other, which is easier). Seems to be a good combo workout. I used light weights I'd use for warmup for doing normal dumbbell rows (24kg for me).

[Nibile]

I wouldn't do overhead squats unless I were a dedicated Olympic lifter. There are so many issues, in terms of hips and ankles mobility, shoulders mobility, lower back and shins positioning, and proper technique.
The added benefits can be obtained by teaming front squats (which are very hard and technique dependant on their own) with overhead barbell walks.

Anyway I bought 2 new shiny kilos for my barbell, it's roughly a 6% increase so it should be fine. More to come.

[siderunner]

Thanks guys. Parking the oh squat idea.

I like those plank rows as a core workout Fiend. Bit lighter weights than you, so far ...

I also go really light from a similar start and do a pressup then open out one arm in a reverse fly until the shoulders and both straight arms are stacked in a vertical line. Back to pressup position and repeat on other side.

[Nibile]

It's 35 kilos so 77 pounds more or less. It's good for basically everything.

I stand corrected: 33 kg. The bar is lighter than I remembered. I asked for those same bar and weights as my 14th birthday present. Who would have though that 30 years later... 

[Nibile]

There you go. Slightly NSFW maybe?