[Oldmanmatt]

I recently posted into a thread about the UIAA drugs in mountaineering report.
I posted because their assertion about the possible benefits of Organic Nitrate consumption/dosing in Hypoxic Exercise, seemed relevant to Anaerobic exercises, such as bouldering.
I realised I don't know enough about human physiology to know if there is any difference between the two actions. Or, to put it another way, is holding your breath the same as breathing a low pO2?
It also appears that most books on the subject are best described as pricey.
So, does the UKB think tank contain the right knowledge to compile a reading list on relevant physiology to our sport?
I'm currently digging through my Diving textbooks for info on Hypoxic exercise, but with it all being pre digital and mostly in the attic, I thought I'd explore two routes...

[TobyD]

The effect on muscles of low o2 and breath holding would be the same I think, but only with a very long breath hold! You'd have to lower your SaO2.

[fatdoc]

Yep.

By the time  you are desaturatng you are not in the same place hormonally, neural tone and hypoxic capillary bed vaso constriction and shunt Mis match are all different. In desaturation you are imminently about to die. Huge fight of flight response is activated.

In addition, what I believe you really want to explore is the equivalent anaerobic activity causing the same shift to the anaerobic vs. aerobic facets of the krebs cycle? With equivalent lactate acid generation?

[Oldmanmatt]

Yep.

By the time  you are desaturatng you are not in the same place hormonally, neural tone and hypoxic capillary bed vaso constriction and shunt Mis match are all different. In desaturation you are imminently about to die. Huge fight of flight response is activated.

In addition, what I believe you really want to explore is the equivalent anaerobic activity causing the same shift to the anaerobic vs. aerobic facets of the krebs cycle? With equivalent lactate acid generation?

Thanks guys.
It's not the same at all is it.

FD, Isn't a large part of that response you described in the first paragraph triggered by CO2 buildup in the lungs and therefore not present in Hypoxic exercise?
Would I be right in thinking that the bloodstream contains ~3 min of O2 assuming no re-saturation? That, plus a lung full of air (which has a (I can't remember) period of time before the gradient tips and O2 transfer ceases), mean that the CO2 build up triggers the F&F response some considerable time prior to dangerous saO2 levels?

Para 2 will take this Engineer a little while to digest/decode...

But, saO2 levels in altitude Hypoxia must be low, but not fatally so. In an Anaerobic exercise cycle, those levels must drop (in a curve? As exertion/heart rate increase) from the moment the cycle commences and continue for those few seconds of the exertion. So this would be running ahead of the F&F response and, briefly, be comparable?

I'm guessing, that since O2 transfer at the lungs is pressure gradient driven, the same is true in the blood/muscle transfer?
ie. The transfer rate would collapse very abruptly as pO2 dropped?

[Oldmanmatt]

On a side note...

Enjoyed this:
http://thomasbondphysio.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/long-qt-syndrome-and-sudden-cardiac.html?m=1

Some great articles in this blog.

[fatdoc]

Matt,

Yes and no.

To save endless trawling...  wikipedia the oxygen disassociation curve and Co2 lung elimination, and the kerbs cycle. Sorry or give you dry quite tricky physiology home work... But this will really help your knowledge.

Very brief summery is.. O2 goes not enter the body in a linear fashion, and not get released into tissues like such... It's 4 times better.

Co2 is a volatile acid, and all of it should leave the body in one pass.

Oh... Google lactate threshold too...

[Oldmanmatt]

Not dry. I am a self confessed Geek...

Found (and am reading) Pulmonary Physiology in Clinical Practice (DR Martin Lawrence).
The 1999 edition, available...

http://www.lakesidepress.com/pulmonary/books/physiology/

Here.

Possibly not the most up-to-date book on the subject but useful and decipherable by this layman...

Edit.

And free!

Most important bit and I almost forgot.

[fatdoc]

Oohh. Nice one! Cheers.

I'm gonna read that.  Love this stuff... ( good job really) nothing wrong with a bit of revision,

[Oldmanmatt]

As previously mentioned, I'm a tight arsed old git (and broke), so before I fork out on this paper; has anyone read it? Is it worthwhile?

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200333150-00003

[abarro81]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=A+Framework+for+Understanding+the+Training+Process+Leading+to+Elite+Performance&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=nMSKVKj-OYP2UNKigYAB
2nd link appears gives the pdf for free. Not read it.

[Oldmanmatt]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=A+Framework+for+Understanding+the+Training+Process+Leading+to+Elite+Performance&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=nMSKVKj-OYP2UNKigYAB
2nd link appears gives the pdf for free. Not read it.

Ta!

[nathanie1]

As previously mentioned, I'm a tight arsed old git (and broke), so before I fork out on this paper; has anyone read it? Is it worthwhile?

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200333150-00003

Just read it, quite an interesting read, thanks for finding/sharing it.

As a side note, papers are ridiculously expensive and I would definitely avoid paying for them if possible. Anyone with a university e-mail address (students, staff) will more than likely have free access to any paper you may want. If you don't know any university folk, I'm pretty sure if you put in a request on here somebody will be able to sort you out. Or pm me

[slackline]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=A+Framework+for+Understanding+the+Training+Process+Leading+to+Elite+Performance&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=nMSKVKj-OYP2UNKigYAB
2nd link appears gives the pdf for free. Not read it.

I wrote this in a DM to Matt, but in my experience sticking the article title in scholar.google.com has a higher success rate than plain www.google.co.uk (with the added bonus that it will link you to articles that cite the paper your interested in, making it easier to find more literature in the same vein).

Anyone with a university e-mail address (students, staff) will more than likely have free access to any paper you may want.

Instituional acces can vary considerably though, its not a guarantee (e.g. University of Sheffield doesn't have access to quite a few sports science journals).

If you don't know any university folk, I'm pretty sure if you put in a request on here somebody will be able to sort you out. Or pm me

Technically disseminating papers you've downloaded is against the T&C.  For example...

What can I do with the data?

You can read, download & print copies of individual articles for your personal use (research, teaching, private study). You must not copy the data into another database system or Internet site for use by people other than yourself.

[nathanie1]

  noted.