UKBouldering.com

Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue (Read 31741 times)

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5784
  • Karma: +623/-36
To add some more suggestions into the pot of suggestions..

Have you questioned why you have a problem with tight muscles? Deep-breathing exercises, meditation and various other relaxation techniques might aid in reducing overall muscle tension. Combined with a conscious effort to relax grip on climbs and a stretching/massaging regime it might do the trick.
Are you anxious about falling - have you done a bunch of falling practice and become relaxed with being on the lead?
If nothing else helps if it were me I'd be tempted to do a little controlled experiment by taking a small amount of muscle relaxant (you'll have to convince a doc to give you some) and then trying a route to see if there's less muscle cramp.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
To add some more suggestions into the pot of suggestions..

Have you questioned why you have a problem with tight muscles? Deep-breathing exercises, meditation and various other relaxation techniques might aid in reducing overall muscle tension. Combined with a conscious effort to relax grip on climbs and a stretching/massaging regime it might do the trick.
Are you anxious about falling - have you done a bunch of falling practice and become relaxed with being on the lead?
If nothing else helps if it were me I'd be tempted to do a little controlled experiment by taking a small amount of muscle relaxant (you'll have to convince a doc to give you some) and then trying a route to see if there's less muscle cramp.

Cheers Pete (Still trying to find sometime to call over to yours to borrow the armaid, I was on the Orme yesterday eve but it was a bit of a rushed session.)

I'll look into some deep-breathing, meditation stuff but I've always been a bit skeptical about that sort of thing?

I was bolt-to-bolting yesterday eve and made a conscious effort not to over grip and it didn't seem to make a difference doing short sequences (I still get a bit cramped) but it's something I could see would help if doing a route as a whole. I don't use straight arms enough either and often find myself trying to shake out with one arm bent. I think I need to convince myself that I can actually still hold on if my arms are straight as it feels less secure to me.

I've never had a problem with falling off, the thought is never in my mind and I preach the getting used to falling off thing to friends. I'll often find myself taking a whipper trying to fight on a route.

In what scenarios are muscle relaxants usually used for? Not sure what reasons I'd give the doc for wanting it?

Cheers

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29236
  • Karma: +631/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
In what scenarios are muscle relaxants usually used for? Not sure what reasons I'd give the doc for wanting it?

Rectal probes :)

I reckon your tight arms, circulation issues, getting pumped and crimping everything are all a viscious circle.

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5784
  • Karma: +623/-36
I reckon your tight arms, circulation issues, getting pumped and crimping everything are all a viscious circle.
Or a viscous triangle?


The muscle relaxant thing isn't really a serious suggestion unless absolutely everythign else you try doesn't work - don't go to the doc and ask for some becasue you're pumping out on routes  ;D 
I was just thinking, out of curiosity, that it would be interesting to see if a small dose would make any difference to forearm pump / tendency toward overgripping.

Ref deep breathing - not much about forcing oxygen into your circulatory system to be skeptical about - it's what Ondra (amongst others) does. Looks like he's deliberately and forcefully inhaling and exhaling while resting, as well as through hard moves. Think I've read him saying something to that effect. Certainly sounds like a racehorse when he's on the rock.


Ally Smith

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 328
  • Karma: +16/-0
I've a mate who can sort you out with a couple of jellies...

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5784
  • Karma: +623/-36
Chemists  ::)

kelvin

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1293
  • Karma: +60/-1
If Luke had a whiff of poppers to relax his muscles before setting off, he'd have a bit more to worry about than forearm pump. Just seeing the bolts would be tough enough. :punk:


Duma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5763
  • Karma: +227/-4
Luke are you on fb? If so look up TCA climbing shop, they've currently got a comp on to win an armaid - think you just like and share the pic.

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
Haha, have I accidently unearthed the black market of climbing here?

Ref deep breathing - not much about forcing oxygen into your circulatory system to be skeptical about - it's what Ondra (amongst others) does. Looks like he's deliberately and forcefully inhaling and exhaling while resting, as well as through hard moves. Think I've read him saying something to that effect. Certainly sounds like a racehorse when he's on the rock.

I meant I was more skeptical about the meditation thing in saying that I've never actually tried it!

The breathing thing works though but I almost always forget to do the deep style breathing, I can think of times I have, usually on wrong routes where it's got me through some moves by the skin of my teeth!

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#84 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
January 27, 2016, 01:23:52 pm
Bit of an update on this, I went to physio on the NHS last year and she thought the tight forearm, numb arms/hands thing was to do with my back being tight.

Fast forward 2 months of physio and it made no difference and she admitted she didn't have a clue what was wrong with me and sent me back to the physio referral bloke. Bloke then said I should go for a nerve conduction test.

Fast forward 6 months (love the NHS) and I had my nerve conduction test yesterday.

He said I have nerve compression in both wrists and that I should get cortisone injections in both my wrists, his english wasn't great and I tried to ask about alternatives and what was actually wrong but didn't get anywhere and he then suggested surgery as an alternative.

They're both red flags for me that I would want to avoid if possible. The problem I have has never got worse but has never got better either. I'm keen to explore alternatives to these as I haven't had chance to yet after pin-pointing my wrists are the problem.

I've got physio tomorrow in work so hopefully they'll be able to help.

Does anyone know if wrist nerve compression can be completely resolved without injections or surgery? Using physio and some self discipline/determination to sort it out given the fact that my case isn't really bad and I'm not in loads of pain or anything?

The last thing I want is to be cut open!

Cheers

TheTwig

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 278
  • Karma: +7/-1
#85 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
January 27, 2016, 05:45:40 pm
Sorry to hear that buddy! I will do a scour of the internet tonight, I don't remember seeing anything in Macleods book about nerve compression of the wrist though I could be wrong.

paulwelford

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • sports physio/medic
#86 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 01, 2016, 06:23:07 pm
I'm assuming your nerve conduction studies showed that the conduction velocity decreased at the location of the carpal tunnel (junction between wrist and palm of hand)?
The other common point of median nerve entrapment is further up the arm at the pronator teres - this is much less common, but the fact you have discomfort in forearms as well as hand is slightly confusing.

So it sounds like you might have carpal tunnel syndrome.

The definitive treatment is a carpal release - it's a simple procedure, taking around 15mins, done under local anaesthetic. I've helped perform them before.
Full recovery takes around 6-8 weeks (longer if diabetic/smoker etc).
Physio is ineffective for this condition.
wrist splints offer temporary relief
Cortisone helps confirm the diagnosis by providing a symptom-free window.

Important: Generally you will need to undergo this surgical procedure BEFORE you develop a fixed sensory deficit (constant numbness/pins and needles) or any muscle weakness for it to be helpful.

If have any doubt about the diagnosis, I would recommend seeing Dr Thing at Pure Sports Medicine who specialises in upper limb problems including climbing injuries. Take the report from your nerve conduction studies.

He can help you exclude other less likely causes, such as an exertional compartment syndrome (it's possible to have more than one problem in a forearm at the same time and you want to be absolutely sure of the diagnosis before having surgery. I've seen many carpal tunnel releases which were ineffective because the problem was actually located further up the arm/in the neck).

Good luck getting it sorted.
DM me if you have any questions.

paulwelford

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • sports physio/medic
#87 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 01, 2016, 06:26:42 pm
Also if you'd be kind enough to complete the anatomy survey I posted today I'd really appreciate it  :yes:

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#88 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 01, 2016, 09:57:50 pm
Thanks Paul, The doctor just said I had compressed nerves in my wrist. He didn't go into detail or speak great English, I'm guessing I'll have to speak to the muscular skeletal bloke who referred me in the first place to get further info.

What I have seems to point to Carpal Tunnel, from your post you make it sound like the only option is to have surgery? Is it not possible to naturally somehow sort it out?

I have very little faith in the NHS and absolutely no money to go private so I'm jubious about having surgery on something I'm not 100% I have.


paulwelford

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • sports physio/medic
#89 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 02, 2016, 12:11:23 am
I agree - essential to get a firm diagnosis before having surgery!

Sports doctors aren't available on the NHS (well there are about 2 in whole country) so try and get yourself a referral to an NHS hand surgeon.

As you have fairly severe, persistent symptoms and have changes detectable on NCS then it is unlikely to settle without surgery.

If you start to the fixed sensory loss I mentioned or weakness/muscle wasting around base of thumb then I would consider surgery fairly urgently - otherwise you could leave it a bit longer/try other things first if you wanted. I share your reluctance to go under the knife!

rodma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1624
  • Karma: +60/-3
#90 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 02, 2016, 07:53:51 am
You probably looked at this already but issues with super tight scalene (sp) can sometimes manifest the same symptoms as carpal. They're ate some videos online for how to release/ stretch  them, so you'd know pretty quickly cos you'll either get some relief or no change at all. I had issues with this.

I know plenty people that have been helped out by the odd Cortisone injection, but that was for shoulders. I don't think that having them once should be too terrifying a prospect.

Good luck. Don't get to distracted by my suggestion. I got relief after about 10 minutes of stretching my neck in weird ways, so knew it wasn't carpal in that case.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


duncan

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2961
  • Karma: +332/-2
#91 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 02, 2016, 08:26:30 am

Sports doctors aren't available on the NHS (well there are about 2 in whole country) so try and get yourself a referral to an NHS hand surgeon.

I can immediately think of four in London
RNOH
Mile End
UCL
The Homerton

Luke, what you describe didn't immediately shout 'carpal tunnel' to me, which usually features hand and finger symptoms. However, your Doctor has had the benefit of examining you and the NCS results so you should go with what they think. Discuss the different treatment options and the NCS findings with your physio. It's very reasonable to be cautious about surgery.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 08:34:25 am by duncan »

Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#92 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 02, 2016, 10:23:35 am
Cheers all,

My problem seems to be that no one is even that sure what's wrong with me every time I see them. It'll probably be a long wait before I even get an appointment to review my NCS with the muscular skeletal physio guy.

My symptoms are bizzare in that they come and go, sometimes it's worse than others and sometimes I forget I have anything wrong at all. I have weeks where I don't wake at night because of numbness and then the odd time where I do.

Maybe I'm wrong but I've always thought surgery was a last resort when things got real bad, and I don't feel it's THAT bad yet.

What makes it worse and what probably makes it hard to diagnose what's wrong with me is that my posture is also rubbish and I get aching shoulders and neck which I've also read can cause CTS type symptoms. Also, on the odd occasion where I do wake in the night due to numbess sometimes it's the thumb, index and middle finger that's numb and other times it's the ring and little fingers, which are 2 differnent nerves being compressed aren't they? (Median and Ulnar).

The main thing I've noticed in the day lately is the inside of my thumbs in the palm are constantly aching and anything that involves pinching is difficult, I was sawing something the other day with a hacksaw and had to stop after about 30 seconds as that area cramps up, same with gripping a toothbrush!

I don't actually get any pain in the wrists at all, the only ache I can feel if I prod around is on the inside of my forearms about a few inches up from my wrist mainly near my ulnar, this is the same in both arms.

I saw the physio in work last Thursday and she assesed and identified my ulnar nerve is irritated on both arms and Carpal Tunnel tests didn't really show much up other than slightly in the left hand. I've also got golfers elbow on my right arm too which isn't helping with tightness in my forearm. She gave me some stretches to do for 2 weeks before I see her again, in which time she said if the stretches are going to work they should of worked by then.

I just can't face having surgery and recovery taking months only to find it's the wrong thing.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 10:29:27 am by Luke Owens »

rodma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1624
  • Karma: +60/-3
#93 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 02, 2016, 01:42:02 pm
Cheers all,

My problem seems to be that no one is even that sure what's wrong with me every time I see them. It'll probably be a long wait before I even get an appointment to review my NCS with the muscular skeletal physio guy.

My symptoms are bizzare in that they come and go, sometimes it's worse than others and sometimes I forget I have anything wrong at all. I have weeks where I don't wake at night because of numbness and then the odd time where I do.

Maybe I'm wrong but I've always thought surgery was a last resort when things got real bad, and I don't feel it's THAT bad yet.

What makes it worse and what probably makes it hard to diagnose what's wrong with me is that my posture is also rubbish and I get aching shoulders and neck which I've also read can cause CTS type symptoms. Also, on the odd occasion where I do wake in the night due to numbess sometimes it's the thumb, index and middle finger that's numb and other times it's the ring and little fingers, which are 2 differnent nerves being compressed aren't they? (Median and Ulnar).

The main thing I've noticed in the day lately is the inside of my thumbs in the palm are constantly aching and anything that involves pinching is difficult, I was sawing something the other day with a hacksaw and had to stop after about 30 seconds as that area cramps up, same with gripping a toothbrush!

I don't actually get any pain in the wrists at all, the only ache I can feel if I prod around is on the inside of my forearms about a few inches up from my wrist mainly near my ulnar, this is the same in both arms.

I saw the physio in work last Thursday and she assesed and identified my ulnar nerve is irritated on both arms and Carpal Tunnel tests didn't really show much up other than slightly in the left hand. I've also got golfers elbow on my right arm too which isn't helping with tightness in my forearm. She gave me some stretches to do for 2 weeks before I see her again, in which time she said if the stretches are going to work they should of worked by then.

I just can't face having surgery and recovery taking months only to find it's the wrong thing.
Your symptoms ( especially sawing/ pinching ) are precisely what I was getting. On bad days I can't tear wrappers open.

Seriously, try stretching those pesky scalenes

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


Luke Owens

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +66/-0
    • My Blog
#94 Re: Tight Forearms and Circulation Issue
February 03, 2016, 10:18:55 am
Seriously, try stretching those pesky scalenes

Thanks, I'll try it out.

The Muscular Skeletal Team at the hospital have received my results back from the Never Conduction Study and I have an appointment to discuss the results with them on Friday.

Can anyone suggest what I can ask them that will be helpful? I don't want to miss anything out.

Should they be able to provide me with a copy of the results?

Cheers

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal